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Would you close down the education department in order to save on taxes

poet4justice 2012/06/14 13:59:40
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I have encounter a sticky situation with taxation and the american value that we, as American, hold so dear. And every time that I talked about taxation something else come along and they start saying thing like " I believe that we should have a lean government but don't touch the check of the military... "
But very much of what we believe in taxation are the core principle of the American Value and vice versa. So this is not a tricky question and it is plain curiosity. I just want to know where do we stop believing in the american value so that we can stop paying taxes to those American value that we choose to not to afford.
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  • Andy 2012/06/14 14:27:26
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    Andy
    +10
    Shut it down at a Federal Level... each state has its own Education Department, and then there are the individual school districts and finally the admin of each school. TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT CONTROL...in education. Simplify and save money, and probably a better product!!

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  • sbtbill whitewu... 2012/06/14 16:57:29
    sbtbill
    +5
    So you want higher prices and poorer service?
  • whitewu... sbtbill 2012/06/14 18:02:29
  • sbtbill whitewu... 2012/06/14 18:22:28
    sbtbill
    +3
    You state it is a proven fact. Where is the proof?

    I've had a little experience in the private school area. I found them to be less effective because you can't fail a student as that costs revenue, you can't keep good people as they can easily find better paying jobs, the marketing department runs the whole thing. I stand by my statement privatization always results in higher cost and poored service. Look at Fedx compared to the post office. If I mail a letter via Fedx it cost $7 and gets there about the same time as if I mail a letter via USPS for 45 cents. Which is the better buy? Look at publicly owned utilities. Look at North Dakota with a state owned bank - best economy in the nation.
  • Charles E sbtbill 2012/06/14 19:18:16
    Charles E
    +1
    North Dakota is prosperous because the state encourages private enterprise.
    Natural resources are a key to their prosperity - during the last year.
  • sbtbill Charles E 2012/06/14 21:30:58
    sbtbill
    +2
    You have a point, but they also have a state owned bank that has done a lot for the state over the years.
  • Charles E sbtbill 2012/06/15 01:26:08
    Charles E
    I knew they had a state owned bank, but not enough more to make an intelligent comment.

    Thank you for your response.
  • Charles E sbtbill 2012/06/14 19:15:13
    Charles E
    NO. She wants to get government out of controling the education system.
  • sbtbill Charles E 2012/06/14 23:40:51
    sbtbill
    +1
    The education system is and should be controlled by government. The only question is at what level and or levels.
  • Lanikai whitewu... 2012/06/14 17:22:04
    Lanikai
    +5
    Exactly. Let the public schools come up to a decent standard OR let parents have vouchers for better schools.

    Removing the damnable unions would be a big help.
  • sbtbill Lanikai 2012/06/14 19:15:58
    sbtbill
    +2
    So you think an average wage of $50,000 a year is enough for a job that takes 4 to 6 years of college and often as much as an MD has? Now-a-days that means starting $80,000 to $100,000 in debt. Private business would likely start at more then that for a lot of majors with a lot more potential. Sounds like you want to select the least competent to teach the kids and complain about it. Remember the old saying you get what you pay for.
  • Lanikai sbtbill 2012/06/14 19:21:53
    Lanikai
    No one in the three states around me requires more than 4 years for teachers, administrators MIGHT require 2 more.

    Their pay and benefits are WAY out of line for formulaic classrooms and PLENTY of days off.

    They work less then 179 days per year, get well over average pay for 4 year college grads and nearly triple the benefits because they get NO cost to them retirement and healthcare.

    AND THEY TURN OUT A LES THEN 100% SUCCESS RATE. Any employee with production as low as many fo them have would be FIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Your communist utopia doesn't play well in America.
  • sbtbill Lanikai 2012/06/14 19:59:31
    sbtbill
    Your 179 days figure is for days the school is open. Lets start by comparing that to number of standard work days 250. So we are talking about a difference of 71 days. Keep in mind some of those 71 days are reduced by in service days when the school is closed but the teacher has to be there to for management purposes. Lets call that 9 days. So now we are down to a 62 day difference. Then there are the days for setting up prior to the school year and a few days after to get all the paper work done. Lets call that 10 days so now you are down to a 52 day difference. Then there is time spent at continuing education. That's uncountable.

    Then there is all the unpaid overtime hours for grading papers, monitoring extra-curriculars and the like, finally it takes about 3 hours to plan each hour of class room activity. Yes, you can use some of those plans year after year. Better figure that in. I think you are grossly under-estimating the time a teacher works.

    I wouldn't brag about requiring only 4 years of college.

    Just what is low production. Everyone knows that standardized tests don't work. They cause harm by getting people to teach to the test. Kids learn less as a result. Would seem to me that doing the best with the supplies you get is the best measure of producti...
    Your 179 days figure is for days the school is open. Lets start by comparing that to number of standard work days 250. So we are talking about a difference of 71 days. Keep in mind some of those 71 days are reduced by in service days when the school is closed but the teacher has to be there to for management purposes. Lets call that 9 days. So now we are down to a 62 day difference. Then there are the days for setting up prior to the school year and a few days after to get all the paper work done. Lets call that 10 days so now you are down to a 52 day difference. Then there is time spent at continuing education. That's uncountable.

    Then there is all the unpaid overtime hours for grading papers, monitoring extra-curriculars and the like, finally it takes about 3 hours to plan each hour of class room activity. Yes, you can use some of those plans year after year. Better figure that in. I think you are grossly under-estimating the time a teacher works.

    I wouldn't brag about requiring only 4 years of college.

    Just what is low production. Everyone knows that standardized tests don't work. They cause harm by getting people to teach to the test. Kids learn less as a result. Would seem to me that doing the best with the supplies you get is the best measure of productivity. How do you measure that. Think of it this way. If you give the best chef in the world a piece of old, poorly cut cheap meat that chef might be able to turn out an eatable and enjoyable dinner but it sure wouldn't be what the chef could do with a good cut. We hand our teachers a mixed bag of great cuts and well call it throw aways and expect them to turn out 100% rocket scientists. That isn't going to happen. In some cases they probably are working wonders by making a ditch digger.
    (more)
  • Lanikai sbtbill 2012/06/14 20:11:38
    Lanikai
    +1
    220 is the MOST they work IF and only IF they work the 4 week summer school session.

    So, pffttt, on that.

    They get WAY more pay then the 5 day a week, 52 week a year victim services officer, and beyond double what police and fire get and they work FAR more hours and serve a more valuable purpose.

    Low production indicates graduation rates which are less than 75% in most cities.

    Thee middle school teachers COULD not teach the kids middle school basics and the kids got passed up anyway.THAT IS AN EPIC FAIL.

    http://www.topix.com/city/cen...
  • sbtbill Lanikai 2012/06/14 21:38:36
    sbtbill
    +1
    Sounds like a victim services officer should get a raise. I'm not going to get into relative value other then to say I disagree with you, but that is personal opinion so your point of view is as good as mine.

    So now we're down to 30 days from a regular work year. OK I'll accept that. I'll even accept that police and probably firemen, too should also be spending work time learning about the law. I still say you have to count time for training as work time with teachers and that you aren't counting that.

    I've never said all teachers are good. Obviously, I don't think we are buying the best. We are getting what we are willing to pay for. Remember you get what you pay for. There aren't a lot of bargains out there.
  • sbtbill Lanikai 2012/06/14 21:44:39
    sbtbill
    +1
    I wanted to treat you 75% statement separately. First off you can't blame all of that on teachers. Some of it is the students fault. Second we've made high school college prep by cutting shop and things like that. Not every student is going to go to college. Sure anyone who wants to try should have the opportunity. But we need to invest the money to teach machine shop, auto repair, sewing, culinary arts and what have you. Even in college prep we should be teaching bookkeeping, taxes, secretarial science, and the like. That requires teachers who know these things well and know how to teach. It requires buildings. Provide that and we'll probably cut the drop out rate. Why should a kid stay in school if they know they can't pass trigonometry and graduate? Not everyone can you know.
  • fortycal_sig 2012/06/14 16:29:02
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    fortycal_sig
    +2
    A no-brainer, so to speak.
  • jubil8 BN-0 PON 2012/06/14 16:21:21
    No, don't close it down I want my kid educated
    jubil8 BN-0 PON
    +2
    I don't want the FUNCTION completely eliminated because there could be federal funds or programs for education that need managing.

    But... I'd downsize it about 90% -- drop it from a cabinet post to a division/agency in HHS, scrap most of its functions, and move most of the ones kept to local governments.

    Public education in the 1950's was better than it is now, and the biggest change has been federal interference. Anyone who thinks bureaucrats can manage educating our children is nuts.

    Re your general statement, I'd cut every government department down, simplify the Tax Code (get rid of loopholes), eliminate most of the admin agencies (the "fourth branch of government"), make Congress responsible to constituents, and review and analyze every government function with an eye to making it lean and mean.

    The Congressional budget for staff and expenses is $4.6 BILLION. And that's only what can be easily computed. Sure, it's a drop in the bucket compared to a cabinet dep't -- but is there one person here who WANTS to pay 2 Senators and 1 Rep $860K+ a year? Each.
  • Professor Wizard 2012/06/14 16:20:24
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    Professor Wizard
    Yea... and re-instate the military draft... Kid's don't need to learn to read and think, they just need to learn to shoot and follow orders.

    Those skills will come in handy when anarchy rules.

    Yes.. I'm being sarcastic... Perhaps we could spend more money educating, and less on trying to single-handedly save the planet. THEN, our smart educated children could find other ways, better then we have, to save the planet later on!
  • Lanikai Profess... 2012/06/14 17:22:51
    Lanikai
    I think we spend a LOT on education , a lot lot lot.

    The military is voluntary, school is forced.
  • Mike 2012/06/14 16:14:36
    No, don't close it down I want my kid educated
    Mike
    +3
    Of course, If you left the decision to kids, they would close it.
  • PaulBot415 2012/06/14 16:09:03
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    PaulBot415
    And stop having kids! We are already overpopulated, if you want them educated, home school. If I had been home schooled as a kid, I probably would not have cut class everyday from 7th grade forward or met kids who introduced me to hard drugs at a young age.
  • Leinad 2012/06/14 15:59:49
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    Leinad
    +1
    but not just because of that...It seems the DOE is the HEAD-QUARTERS for the NATIONAL PUBLIC INDOCTRINATION CENTERS and UP TO THEIR EYE-BALLS in CORRUPTION and MISMANAGEMENT...
  • La Bef 2012/06/14 15:50:08
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    La Bef
    +2
    Privatize education, the crap they are teaching our children now is not worth our tax money. When my children were going to school my husband and I worked two jobs so that we could send our children to a quality school and never have regretted doing so. They grew up to be well grounded professionals and are doing the same with their children. No government school for this family.
  • Striker 2012/06/14 15:41:51
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    Striker
    +3
    How about allowing a little Liberty? "My money is better spent"... by ME!
    Then this answer - why should YOUR money be spent ANYWHERE else except where YOU decide?

    FedGov should have NO control over individuals, their families, their lives, or their money. It's your money from your efforts for YOU to use for whatever is best for you.

    Yes, end the DOE, then get to work on ending control by your states, your counties and your towns. Free Market competition always gives you the most for your money, without removing your Liberty.
  • darlenedoskas1969 2012/06/14 15:40:26
    No, don't close it down I want my kid educated
    darlenedoskas1969
    +2
    the education of our children shouldn't have an agenda beyond teaching them what they need to know to be productive members of a peaceful society
    they need to be taught truth. they need to be taught facts.
    they do not need to be taught propaganda, and dogma

    The next step for the Republicans, after they cut federal funding for public education will be to privatize education... contract it out to the lowest bidder, who will still charge you an outrageous price to educate your children, until the only people who will have even a basic education will be the rich... like in the good old days, they are always going on about... I don't know about anyone else, but I like the new days better
  • none 2012/06/14 15:30:27
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    none
    +1
    I'd close it down and re-do it into something better, the way it is now it's not doing the job. What I'd close down completely is the Dept of Energy, Carter formed it and it has NEVER done what it was designed to do, all it does is waste money.
  • Speedy 2012/06/14 15:28:16
    No, don't close it down I want my kid educated
    Speedy
    +2
    Education is very important!
  • lauren ... Speedy 2012/06/14 18:06:07
    lauren dull
    +2
    Yes you are right and our schools are not doing the job !!!! Look to the charter schools such as the one in Harlem and also City Charter High in Pittsburgh Pa. These schools are educating our students because there teachers are held accountable and if the kids don't learn they are fired . There students do well (which most do) they are rewarded handsomely . That works.
  • Speedy lauren ... 2012/06/14 19:08:03
    Speedy
    So according to you, education could be manageable.
  • lauren ... Speedy 2012/07/26 14:34:24
    lauren dull
    Very much so , if the federal government stays out and we get rid of the teachers unions that have destroyed the system .
  • mrdog 2012/06/14 15:24:08
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    mrdog
    +2
    States can handle eudcaiton without Dept. of Ed.... same goes for several other
    depts...Many of them are .just not necessary.... let locals make decisions....not feds in the beltway..... grassroot control....bark.
  • sbtbill mrdog 2012/06/14 16:59:38
    sbtbill
    +1
    We have a national economy we need national solution. States have outlived their usefulness.
  • mrdog sbtbill 2012/06/15 07:21:36
    mrdog
    Disagree.... locals make their own decisions....best for me...
    Always support state rights...not big fed ... bark
  • jasmine1 2012/06/14 15:12:43
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    jasmine1
    +3
    What the Feds are forcing the schools to teach is a joke. Let the schools have no ties to Washington. The states can run them themselves.
  • Maddog jasmine1 2012/06/15 22:55:04
    Maddog
    +1
    Speaking as a person with 30 years in public education, I agree!!!
  • DS in Oak Ridge NC 2012/06/14 15:10:22
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    DS in Oak Ridge NC
    +2
    Not just to save on taxes, but to refocus on achieving better outcomes, pushing tactics and methods that work, and eliminating feel-good ones that simply don't educate kids or prepare them to enter the workforce of the future, let alone the one we have right now. Currently, we spend more each year and get poorer results. That's just wrong.
  • Racefish 2012/06/14 15:09:49
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    Racefish
    +2
    Plus the Dept. of Energy.
  • lauren ... Racefish 2012/06/14 18:06:28
    lauren dull
    THANK YOU!!!
  • cddjmikey 2012/06/14 14:56:27
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    cddjmikey
    +1
    It is one of the newest and by coincidence the most useless of federal departments. It seems like since it was started the average test scores on the big "3" have actually gone down ! In case you are wondering, reading, writing and rithmatic !
  • Dave Sawyer ♥ Child of God ♥ 2012/06/14 14:53:31
    yes, close it down my money is better spend elsewhere
    Dave Sawyer ♥ Child of God ♥
    +2
    Not so much to save on taxes, but to save our children if it is still possible.

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