Will Afghanistan be Obama's "Vietnam"?
Chico
2009/07/28 14:02:36
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Afghan war questioned as more bodies flown home
Jul 28 07:02 AM US/Eastern
CNN Correspondent: U.S. ‘Cannot Win the War in Afghanistan’
Most Britons believe the increasingly bloody war in Afghanistan is "unwinnable" and want troops pulled out, a poll suggested on Tuesday, as more soldiers' bodies were flown home.
The dead servicemen were set to be honoured a day after the government announced the end of a deadly offensive in southern Afghanistan and outlined a change of strategy there following a sharp spike in deaths.
Foreign Secretary David Miliband signalled on Monday that Britain would back talking to moderate Taliban representatives in a bid to isolate militant insurgents who have killed 191 British troops since 2001.
A total of 22 have been killed this month alone after British forces went on the offensive in Operation Panther's Claw, just weeks before crucial presidential elections.
Four more fallen soldiers' bodies were flown home to RAF Lyneham near Swindon in Wiltshire, before a solemn procession through the village of Wootton Bassett.
The ceremonies in the town -- which has become a focus of grief and support for British troops -- come after two more soldiers were killed in the troubled Helmand province, the frontline in the battle with the Taliban.
The surge in troop deaths has sparked a political row over resources for troops in Afghanistan, with Prime Minister Gordon Brown forced to defend Britain's strategy after calls for more equipment and boosted soldier numbers.
But according to a poll in the Independent on Tuesday, the majority of Britons now think the war in Afghanistan is "unwinnable" and want troops to be withdrawn immediately.
Fifty-eight percent see the offensive against the Taliban as a lost cause, while 31 percent believe the conflict can be won, according to a ComRes poll conducted between July 24 and 26.
Fifty-two percent of the 1,008 polled want the troops out while 43 percent want them to stay put.
Britain has around 9,150 troops in Afghanistan, the vast majority fighting Taliban militants in troubled Helmand.
In a keynote speech at NATO headquarters in Brussels on Monday, Miliband reiterated Britain's call for other countries to do more -- while stressing the need for the Afghan government to engage with moderate Taliban elements.
"We need to help the Afghan government exploit the opportunity, with a more coherent effort to fragment the various elements of the insurgency and turn those who can be reconciled to live within the Afghan constitution," he said.
The military on Monday insisted the first phase of Panther's Claw was a success, with 3,000 British-led troops inflicting heavy losses on the Taliban since the operation was launched in late June.
In the latest violence in Helmand on Tuesday, eight local security guards were killed by an insurgent bomb, the interior ministry said.
There are about 90,000 foreign troops in Afghanistan helping local forces, with thousands most recently deployed to the south to try and secure the restive area ahead of presidential polls on August 20.
The ballots, a key test of US and NATO-backed efforts to install democracy in Afghanistan after decades of war and conflict, will be only the second time that Afghans elect a president.
President Hamid Karzai is favourite to win a second term, but has come under fire from his rivals in the election for not doing more to improve security in the country since he assumed office after the 2001 fall of the Taliban.
Copyright AFP 2008, AFP stories and photos shall not be published, broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed directly or indirectly in any medium
Jul 28 07:02 AM US/Eastern
CNN Correspondent: U.S. ‘Cannot Win the War in Afghanistan’
Most Britons believe the increasingly bloody war in Afghanistan is "unwinnable" and want troops pulled out, a poll suggested on Tuesday, as more soldiers' bodies were flown home.
The dead servicemen were set to be honoured a day after the government announced the end of a deadly offensive in southern Afghanistan and outlined a change of strategy there following a sharp spike in deaths.
Foreign Secretary David Miliband signalled on Monday that Britain would back talking to moderate Taliban representatives in a bid to isolate militant insurgents who have killed 191 British troops since 2001.
A total of 22 have been killed this month alone after British forces went on the offensive in Operation Panther's Claw, just weeks before crucial presidential elections.
Four more fallen soldiers' bodies were flown home to RAF Lyneham near Swindon in Wiltshire, before a solemn procession through the village of Wootton Bassett.
The ceremonies in the town -- which has become a focus of grief and support for British troops -- come after two more soldiers were killed in the troubled Helmand province, the frontline in the battle with the Taliban.
The surge in troop deaths has sparked a political row over resources for troops in Afghanistan, with Prime Minister Gordon Brown forced to defend Britain's strategy after calls for more equipment and boosted soldier numbers.
But according to a poll in the Independent on Tuesday, the majority of Britons now think the war in Afghanistan is "unwinnable" and want troops to be withdrawn immediately.
Fifty-eight percent see the offensive against the Taliban as a lost cause, while 31 percent believe the conflict can be won, according to a ComRes poll conducted between July 24 and 26.
Fifty-two percent of the 1,008 polled want the troops out while 43 percent want them to stay put.
Britain has around 9,150 troops in Afghanistan, the vast majority fighting Taliban militants in troubled Helmand.
In a keynote speech at NATO headquarters in Brussels on Monday, Miliband reiterated Britain's call for other countries to do more -- while stressing the need for the Afghan government to engage with moderate Taliban elements.
"We need to help the Afghan government exploit the opportunity, with a more coherent effort to fragment the various elements of the insurgency and turn those who can be reconciled to live within the Afghan constitution," he said.
The military on Monday insisted the first phase of Panther's Claw was a success, with 3,000 British-led troops inflicting heavy losses on the Taliban since the operation was launched in late June.
In the latest violence in Helmand on Tuesday, eight local security guards were killed by an insurgent bomb, the interior ministry said.
There are about 90,000 foreign troops in Afghanistan helping local forces, with thousands most recently deployed to the south to try and secure the restive area ahead of presidential polls on August 20.
The ballots, a key test of US and NATO-backed efforts to install democracy in Afghanistan after decades of war and conflict, will be only the second time that Afghans elect a president.
President Hamid Karzai is favourite to win a second term, but has come under fire from his rivals in the election for not doing more to improve security in the country since he assumed office after the 2001 fall of the Taliban.
Copyright AFP 2008, AFP stories and photos shall not be published, broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed directly or indirectly in any medium
Top Opinion
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Tiffany 2009/07/28 14:09:14None of the above. Here's what I think..........
+5I think that regardless of what's going on over there, most of the MSM wont report it. The last year of Bush's presidency....it was war 24/7. Since O'Zero got elected, the MSM virtually ignores the wars. Why is it that war is deemed bad if a Republican is in office....but is accepted when a Dem is in office? Oh.....that's right.....O'Zero inherited all of this mess from Bush. My bad.............................
Iraq had a beginning and an end..
The terrain and never ending supply of terrorist will be never ending.
We need to work on making the home land safer.
SOLDIERS are dying, and to what end??
the taliban took control of Afghanistan, set up terrorist camps and on 9/11 america was attacked,
i can't be botherd giving you the full argument,
if your working on the levle of party bashing, (i'm not even american btw) i'm quite happy to call you arrogant
While Bush was President the media and liberals carried on about the wars everyday. Now that Obama is President you don't hear a peep.
I personally think people from Great Britain to call us arrogant are a tad ungrateful and have forgotten much of their history.
the american media is mostly right wing, the Iraqu war was ilegal,
i not talking about the past, i'm talking about you personaly, unless you personly have done somthing in history ?
i take it your republican so lets talk about the presant tens, who's the only country that satyed on talking terms with bush /, & basicly the only country making any realy contrabution to help the states in the middle east ? or are you stuck in the past ?
As far as our media being mostly right wing, all I can say is...
Are you kidding me? You are hysterically wrong. Where did you get that from? The Iraq war was not illegal. That's more crap! I'm in Canada right now and I've noticed that the news about the US is very slanted. We are hanging on to freedom by a thread and I know you don't get it but you are dead wrong. Obama has been nothing but nasty to your country but I guess you don't mind?
we've had a private enquirey here saying the public was delibratly mislead on iraqus thret, i guessing it was sexed up even more in america, as emotions were runing higher there, now we're having a public enquiry,
forget about the politics & it was clearly a war for oil.
i'm a proud scots man & if he had been rude to us i'd be saying so, the only thing i think hes done is snub brown when he visited america, it was unsceduald & hes a bussy man, no harm done,
you almost watching a propaganda chanle in fox "news"
back to the point, Afghanistan is & will be difficult, but is nesacery
but it was the contracts, sadam had them with france & russia, now mosly america & some fields i think were sold to american companys, + the price hick ment shells added profit & Taxes,
the bbc is none, left wingests say its right wing & vice versa,
i'll try & say it in american then because they are nutral, count them in the centre of the scale, then your right cause thats what liberalsim is in the centre, but you mean left, no there not they're unbaiest, maby the centre is alot thuther left compared to what your use to,
Our oil companies have been making an 8% profit. That is fairly low as corporations go. I'm just glad one is making a profit myself.
I want small government and I don't want a socialist country and I want freedom. That is why we came here from Great Britain.
Now they are doing the same thing in Afghanistan and all the people who were bitching about the war aren't saying anything and the media is totally silent. If that doesn't show you that our media is biased what will?
If any side has made this political it would be the Democrats.
i disagree with nearly every thing you've said there,
it is going to be extremely hard to win because of the terrain and the people, your right there,
i'm gonna try & keep this unpolitical, on where your wrong,
Iraqu & Afghanistan are very diffrent wars, i don't know what coment obama made about iraqu, but the war was over very quickly, it was the ocupation that was a mess, (as its a Q on Afgan i wount get into the legality, missleading of the public or the post war plans of iraqu)
i've just realised your holl argument was political, so i can't comment on anything else you said lol
look Afganistan is alot harsher conditions, for us, we take a year to get our helicopters conditioned for Afganistan from iraqu, the terrain like you said is very difficult, the sparsh populi, patch work of war lords, other than a central dictatorship like in Iraqu, the more i look it to the war the more difficult it looks to win, but its a war that needs to be won, what i think is,
heart & mides - more troops on the ground
divide & conquer - alot of the diffrent tribs fighting for the talban, are doing it out of fear, of have being misslead into it,
train Afgan security - i'm not sure what the number is but we've trained thousands of police & milli...&
i disagree with nearly every thing you've said there,
it is going to be extremely hard to win because of the terrain and the people, your right there,
i'm gonna try & keep this unpolitical, on where your wrong,
Iraqu & Afghanistan are very diffrent wars, i don't know what coment obama made about iraqu, but the war was over very quickly, it was the ocupation that was a mess, (as its a Q on Afgan i wount get into the legality, missleading of the public or the post war plans of iraqu)
i've just realised your holl argument was political, so i can't comment on anything else you said lol
look Afganistan is alot harsher conditions, for us, we take a year to get our helicopters conditioned for Afganistan from iraqu, the terrain like you said is very difficult, the sparsh populi, patch work of war lords, other than a central dictatorship like in Iraqu, the more i look it to the war the more difficult it looks to win, but its a war that needs to be won, what i think is,
heart & mides - more troops on the ground
divide & conquer - alot of the diffrent tribs fighting for the talban, are doing it out of fear, of have being misslead into it,
train Afgan security - i'm not sure what the number is but we've trained thousands of police & millitia, basic security for the people is the minim to save the people from the talaban & stablise the regein
There are Rats and mice in the house and barn. Do you set out hundreds of traps and wait or do you poison the Hell out of their enviroment for a more definate outcome?
In Vietnam we fought "gorillas" in Afganistan we are doing much the same.
In Vietnam we were restrained from "removing targets" and in Afganistan there will be more of the same.
In Vietnam we lost a lot of Soldiers due to less than stellar moves, not from the Soldiers themselves, but from the restrictions placed on them by High Command.
Russia stayed in Afganistan for how long? And they accomplished what? If, for whatever reason we are going to send good men and women into the furnace we should have a clear and decisive plan of action. It is truely sad that non combatants will die, but to save our lives and get the job done; mothball the rat traps and take out the poison. ALL OF IT !! Given the state of military technology today.....we should not have to be there at all.
While I never saw combat and therefore cannot speak to the horrors of war, I do believe in my heart of hearts, if it is between you and the target, KILL IT and move on.
Lives will be lost of course...the majority of those saved will be ours.
..."&"'
There are Rats and mice in the house and barn. Do you set out hundreds of traps and wait or do you poison the Hell out of their enviroment for a more definate outcome?
In Vietnam we fought "gorillas" in Afganistan we are doing much the same.
In Vietnam we were restrained from "removing targets" and in Afganistan there will be more of the same.
In Vietnam we lost a lot of Soldiers due to less than stellar moves, not from the Soldiers themselves, but from the restrictions placed on them by High Command.
Russia stayed in Afganistan for how long? And they accomplished what? If, for whatever reason we are going to send good men and women into the furnace we should have a clear and decisive plan of action. It is truely sad that non combatants will die, but to save our lives and get the job done; mothball the rat traps and take out the poison. ALL OF IT !! Given the state of military technology today.....we should not have to be there at all.
While I never saw combat and therefore cannot speak to the horrors of war, I do believe in my heart of hearts, if it is between you and the target, KILL IT and move on.
Lives will be lost of course...the majority of those saved will be ours.
A parting thought : I have family in Iraq right now, and I have family going to Afganistan. In no way am I confident that we will "sweep & mop"....we are far too concerned with collateral damage and our image. War does not make friends...and friends don't make war. Break out the Rat poison. end
And I really watch journalists would shove the words Vietnam and quagmire up their asses.
We live in a "proctocracy"!
(ruled by an A-Hole with MSM agenda-driven lockstep support)
He will get mired in a "macho" embroglio and will never want to admit he "bit off more than he can chew"!
Britain and US prepared to open talks with the TalibanComments (…)
Richard Norton-Taylor
The Guardian, Tuesday 28 July 2009
Article history
A soldier in Gereshk, Afghanistan. Gordon Brown has signalled the end of the first phase of Operation Panther's Claw, aimed at driving back the Taliban. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA Wire
A concerted effort to start unprecedented talks between Taliban and British and American envoys was outlined yesterday in a significant change in tactics designed to bring about a breakthrough in the attritional, eight-year conflict in Afghanistan.
Senior ministers and commanders on the ground believe they have created the right conditions to open up a dialogue with "second-tier" local leaders now the Taliban have been forced back in a swath of Helmand province.
They are hoping that Britain's continuing military presence in Helmand, strengthened by the arrival of thousands of US troops, will encourage Taliban commanders to end the insurgency. There is even talk in London and Washington of a military "exit strategy".
Speaking at the end of the five-week Operation Panther's Claw in which hundreds of British troops were reported to have cleared insurgents from a vital region of Helmand province, Lieuten..."''"
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Britain and US prepared to open talks with the TalibanComments (…)
Richard Norton-Taylor
The Guardian, Tuesday 28 July 2009
Article history
A soldier in Gereshk, Afghanistan. Gordon Brown has signalled the end of the first phase of Operation Panther's Claw, aimed at driving back the Taliban. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA Wire
A concerted effort to start unprecedented talks between Taliban and British and American envoys was outlined yesterday in a significant change in tactics designed to bring about a breakthrough in the attritional, eight-year conflict in Afghanistan.
Senior ministers and commanders on the ground believe they have created the right conditions to open up a dialogue with "second-tier" local leaders now the Taliban have been forced back in a swath of Helmand province.
They are hoping that Britain's continuing military presence in Helmand, strengthened by the arrival of thousands of US troops, will encourage Taliban commanders to end the insurgency. There is even talk in London and Washington of a military "exit strategy".
Speaking at the end of the five-week Operation Panther's Claw in which hundreds of British troops were reported to have cleared insurgents from a vital region of Helmand province, Lieutenant-General Simon Mayall, deputy chief of defence staff, said: "It gives the Taliban 'second tier' room to reconnect with the government and this is absolutely at the heart of this operation."
Julian Borger: 'There has to be a political solution' Link to this audio The second tier of the insurgency are regarded as crucial because they control large numbers of Taliban fighters in Pashtun-dominated southern Afghanistan. The first tier of Taliban commanders – hardliners around Mullah Omar – could not be expected to start talks in the foreseeable future. The third tier – footsoldiers with no strong commitments – are not regarded as influential or significant players.
The change in tactics was revealed as the Ministry of Defence announced that two more British soldiers were killed in southern Afghanistan. One, from the Light Dragoons, was on patrol in Operation Panther's Claw; the other, a soldier from the Royal Artillery, was killed on foot patrol in Sangin. Ten soldiers have died in Operation Panther's Claw.
Mayall is responsible for formulating operational policy in Afghanistan and his remarks gave added weight to interventions by senior ministers yesterday.
David Miliband, the foreign secretary, and Douglas Alexander, the international development secretary, yesterday held out the prospect of reconciliation between the Afghan government and Taliban fighters prepared to renounce violence.
For more than a year, British intelligence officers have been instigating contacts with Taliban commanders and their entourage. But their task has been very delicate given the sensitivities of the Karzai administration in Kabul.
The situation has been complicated further by the influx of hardline and ideologically motivated fighters joining the Taliban and other insurgent groups from across the Pakistani border.
But the fact that senior ministers and military commanders seized on the apparent success of Operation Panther's Claw to highlight the possibility of talks with the Taliban reflects their concern about the lack of progress so far in Nato's counter-insurgency. Significantly, and as if to counter public aversion to talks with the Taliban, ministers and military commanders alike compared the current campaign in southern Afghanistan to anti-terrorist operations in Northern Ireland.
A ComRes poll in today's Independent suggests most people now believe British troops should be pulled out of Afghanistan. Most of those who responded (58%) said the Taliban could not be defeated militarily, and 52% of those surveyed said troops should be withdrawn immediately. This compares with a Guardian/ICM poll earlier this month which showed that 42% of those surveyed wanted troops to be withdrawn immediately.
America's priorities in Afghanistan will be spelled out in a briefing paper drawn up by General Stanley McChrystal, the new US commander in the country, due to be handed to Barack Obama tomorrow.
He will emphasise the need for speeding up the training of Afghan troops, according to defence sources. He is also expected to ask for more troops from Nato allies. British military commanders are drawing up contingency plans to increase the number of British forces to more than 10,000 from the current 9,000.
Asked whether he needed more troops, Brigadier Tim Radford, commander of British troops in Helmand, replied: "I have enough forces to do what I set out to do in Panther's Claw."
The number of British troops that might be deployed in future was "out of my hands", he said. But he added that as the number of Afghan army recruits increased, the number of Nato forces required to train them also increased.
Miliband's call for talks with more moderate Taliban elements was echoed later by Gordon Brown, who said: "Our strategy has always been to complement the military action that we've got to take to clear the Taliban, to threaten al-Qaida in its bases – while at the same time we put in more money to build the Afghan forces, the troops, the police."