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Why do people think Obama is not a natural born citizen?

iamthemob ~ the 444th Guru ~ 2011/03/06 01:58:44
Related Topics: Obama
snopes.com posted an article debunking the myth of Obama's legitimacy - discussing the initial claims and how they were already settled.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp
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  • Greg 2011/03/07 15:34:49
    Greg
    Because that is a forgery. have you ever seen you're birth certificate?
  • iamthem... Greg 2011/03/07 15:37:11
    iamthemob ~ the 444th Guru ~
    Nope. You know it's a forgery how?
  • Greg iamthem... 2011/03/07 15:41:09
    Greg
    Look at it, Its fake. Where is the recorders signature? Where is the watermark? Where is the stamp?
  • iamthem... Greg 2011/03/07 15:44:51
    iamthemob ~ the 444th Guru ~
    +1
    It's a short form isn't it?

    Lord - really, those are huge things to be missing. Don't you think that if they went to the trouble of putting out a forgery for public example, it would at least be a really good forgery?
  • Greg iamthem... 2011/03/07 15:55:31
    Greg
    They think that you are stupid.
  • iamthem... Greg 2011/03/07 15:57:36
    iamthemob ~ the 444th Guru ~
    Considering the level of scrutiny they knew it would receive, I don't think they'd risk thinking the entire country including people demanding to see proof would be THAT stupid.
  • Greg iamthem... 2011/03/07 16:00:55
    Greg
    Do YOU see a signature on there anywhere?
  • iamthem... Greg 2011/03/07 16:22:51
    iamthemob ~ the 444th Guru ~
    It's a random image I pulled off from the SH google search and threw up there! I don't even know if it's the one that was provided. So...no...but I don't know if that was required on the document at the time in Hawaii. If it was, again, I'm assuming that the forgery would have included it.

    Scenario 1: Your eligibility to be president is challenged, so you and your team in order to prove your right forge certification of your U.S. birth and plan to put it up on the internet for the government, media outlets, and public to see. However, thinking that not one of those millions will research the authenticity of it, you don't include any of the major authenticating elements of it - you just type something similar and slap it up there.

    OR alternative -

    Scenario 2: Same challenge above, but you can get the document up and it's real. However, the opponents to your candidacy go data mining, attempting to find something wrong with it, and start spreading news that it's a forgery.

    In the first one, a person under scrutiny assumes that those scrutinizing will accept a shoddy forgery as proof and never check whether it's real. In the second, people who don't like the candidate simply refuse to accept information from him because they want to believe they're right about him.
    ...



    It's a random image I pulled off from the SH google search and threw up there! I don't even know if it's the one that was provided. So...no...but I don't know if that was required on the document at the time in Hawaii. If it was, again, I'm assuming that the forgery would have included it.

    Scenario 1: Your eligibility to be president is challenged, so you and your team in order to prove your right forge certification of your U.S. birth and plan to put it up on the internet for the government, media outlets, and public to see. However, thinking that not one of those millions will research the authenticity of it, you don't include any of the major authenticating elements of it - you just type something similar and slap it up there.

    OR alternative -

    Scenario 2: Same challenge above, but you can get the document up and it's real. However, the opponents to your candidacy go data mining, attempting to find something wrong with it, and start spreading news that it's a forgery.

    In the first one, a person under scrutiny assumes that those scrutinizing will accept a shoddy forgery as proof and never check whether it's real. In the second, people who don't like the candidate simply refuse to accept information from him because they want to believe they're right about him.

    Which is more likely?

    You can find the certification of live birth on sites were it was provided
    I'm sure - and there's plenty on the debunking of the "forgery" myth.
    (more)
  • Greg iamthem... 2011/03/07 22:23:36 (edited)
    Greg
    You're saying that the President can't possibly be dumb enough to give us the document he has given us, so therefore he must be legit? God I hope you're not a lawyer.

    Hey do you want to buy a bridge? Its brand new I can put it anywhere you want.
  • iamthem... Greg 2011/03/08 05:09:54
    iamthemob ~ the 444th Guru ~
    Nope. What I'm saying is that you pointed out three defects that, if required for the document to be official, would be clearly required. If would require a minimum amount of research to determine that. I'm saying that of the two situations, one is more likely than the other, and one is way, way more paranoid than the other.

    So, not a declaration that if the situation where the cert is authentic is more likely than the other, that means that the cert is therefore authentic. Merely that you're listing random qualifications that you think should be included in this document for it to be considered authentic without stating how you know what the requirements on such a document from Hawaii in the sixties would be - and that it is clear that everyone knows what a valid birth cert looks like without supporting how if it's so clearly inauthentic, how no one would raise that fact before they took the embarrassing step of posting it.
  • Greg 2011/07/08 15:35:07
    +3
    Blacked out? It wouldn't be right to tell who's Obama's Birth Doctor's name was, look at all the arguments that are being done about this completely ridiculous statement. If he hadn't showed his birth certificate BEFORE even running for president, before being governor of Illinois, before even becoming a democrat, HE WOULDN'T BE PRESIDENT! Buddy, you're beyond and rationality on this subject, you're just a biased Republican...
  • bryan s... Greg 2011/05/22 05:47:25
    bryan swaffer
    +1
    Yes, I keep a copy with me at all times, because I am proud to be BORN AMERICAN; my family was NOT illegal
  • Don 2011/03/06 13:10:51
    Don
    He doesn't act like an American.
    He doesn't believe in American exceptionalism.
    He can't or won't recognize who our enemies are.
  • iamthem... Don 2011/03/06 13:15:47
    iamthemob ~ the 444th Guru ~
    How does he not act like an American?

    Howe does an American act?

    How does he not believe in exceptionalism? And how do you define that?

    How does he not recognize who our enemies are? Who are our enemies? And how do you know?

    The thing is, I'm fairly certain that part of whatever could be called American exceptionalism would have to be a celebration of the diversity of ideas.
  • keymanjim 2011/03/06 05:07:57
    keymanjim
    +1
    Snopes is highly unreliable since they are run by dyed in the wool liberals.
    Let's start at the top:
    His paternal grandmother said that she was present for his birth in, what would become, Kenya.
    In 2004, long before his presidential campaign, the Kenyan news paper the Sunday Standard praised him as "Kenyan born obama".
    During the senatorial debates in 2004 Alan Keys pointed out that obama was born in Kenya. To which, obama didn't deny.
    His own wife calls Kenya "his home country":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?...
    At this point I would like to point out that, according to the laws in effect at the time, his mother was too young to convey her citizenship onto him if he wasn't born on US soil.

    Should you choose to ignore these facts, there is still the Constitutional issue.
    The writers of the 14th Amendment made it clear during the debates that for a person to be subject to the jurisdiction of the US they must not be subject to the jurisdiction of any other country.
    Since his father was a foreign national (British), he was born subject to the jurisdiction of Great Britain. This fact he proclaims on his 'fight the smears' website.
    But, the single most direct evidence of his ineligibility is his own words:
    During the run up to the last presidential election, the Senate passed a re...
    Snopes is highly unreliable since they are run by dyed in the wool liberals.
    Let's start at the top:
    His paternal grandmother said that she was present for his birth in, what would become, Kenya.
    In 2004, long before his presidential campaign, the Kenyan news paper the Sunday Standard praised him as "Kenyan born obama".
    During the senatorial debates in 2004 Alan Keys pointed out that obama was born in Kenya. To which, obama didn't deny.
    His own wife calls Kenya "his home country":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?...
    At this point I would like to point out that, according to the laws in effect at the time, his mother was too young to convey her citizenship onto him if he wasn't born on US soil.

    Should you choose to ignore these facts, there is still the Constitutional issue.
    The writers of the 14th Amendment made it clear during the debates that for a person to be subject to the jurisdiction of the US they must not be subject to the jurisdiction of any other country.
    Since his father was a foreign national (British), he was born subject to the jurisdiction of Great Britain. This fact he proclaims on his 'fight the smears' website.
    But, the single most direct evidence of his ineligibility is his own words:
    During the run up to the last presidential election, the Senate passed a resolution (SR.511) confirming that McCain was a natural born citizen because he was born on what was considered US soil to TWO US citizens parents. Obama helped to write this resolution and voted for it. So, even he thinks that he isn't eligible to be in that office.
    (more)
  • iamthem... keymanjim 2011/03/06 05:41:18
    iamthemob ~ the 444th Guru ~
    I think that the debunking of snopes was...debunked...

    http://urbanlegends.about.com...

    I believe you're talking about the paternal step-grandmother - Sarah Obama shed more light on the controversy in a 2007 interview with the Tribune Company. In the interview, Obama's paternal step grandmother stated that six months after Barack Obama Sr. and Ann Dunham were married, she received a letter (at her home in Kenya) announcing the birth of Barack Obama II, who was born August 4, 1961.

    A newspaper statement - well, what was the real evidence there? Was this more a pride thing for Kenya? Or was it a reference to his roots there? see below.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/0...

    The Michelle Obama speech (about a situation where Obama took an AIDS test to promote STD screening in Kenya to stifle embarrassment of the people there about taking such tests) is an off the cuff. I've often called Ireland my home. I've called it where I'm from, the my ancestral land, etc. And, of course...its where his fathers ancestors are from.

    But, as he was on U.S. soil, the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution states: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States...." and he is a natural born citi...















    I think that the debunking of snopes was...debunked...

    http://urbanlegends.about.com...

    I believe you're talking about the paternal step-grandmother - Sarah Obama shed more light on the controversy in a 2007 interview with the Tribune Company. In the interview, Obama's paternal step grandmother stated that six months after Barack Obama Sr. and Ann Dunham were married, she received a letter (at her home in Kenya) announcing the birth of Barack Obama II, who was born August 4, 1961.

    A newspaper statement - well, what was the real evidence there? Was this more a pride thing for Kenya? Or was it a reference to his roots there? see below.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/0...

    The Michelle Obama speech (about a situation where Obama took an AIDS test to promote STD screening in Kenya to stifle embarrassment of the people there about taking such tests) is an off the cuff. I've often called Ireland my home. I've called it where I'm from, the my ancestral land, etc. And, of course...its where his fathers ancestors are from.

    But, as he was on U.S. soil, the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution states: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States...." and he is a natural born citizen in his own right.

    Whether Obama's FATHER was born subject to any other jurisdiction is not at issue - the Fourteenth Amendment doesn't care about your parents - if you are born in the U.S., you are a citizen. And a citizen of no other nation.

    FINALLY - the Resolution you're talking about was to confirm that McCain was eligible as a "natural born citizen" - EVEN THOUGH HE WAS BORN OUTSIDE THE U.S.:

    What started out as an effort to put to rest any objection to Senator John McCain’s eligibility to become our nation’s President because he was born outside of the U.S. in Panama, was in fact a preemptive strike to eliminate any claim that Obama might not be a natural born citizen either . A February NY Times article raised the question as to whether McCain, who was born in 1936 on a U.S. military installation in the Panama Canal Zone, satisfied the constitutional prerequisites to become president. Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution requires a president to be a natural born citizen.

    So...the Resolution was passed as a measure of faith that McCain was a U.S. citizen naturally born DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE WAS BORN IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY.

    It was that McCain needed the extra confirmation - oddly, no one then, even Obama, thought that Obama would.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.or...

    http://ahrcanum.wordpress.com...
    (more)
  • keymanjim iamthem... 2011/03/07 15:49:14
    keymanjim
    I'm just going to address the heart of your post. In that the 14th Amendment does prevent anyone from becoming a US citizen if they already have citizenship in another country.
    When asked for clarification of this phrase, Sen. Lyman Trumbull, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, author of the 13th Amendment, and the one who inserted the phrase in the 14th replied:

    "The provision is, that 'all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.' That means 'subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.' What do we mean by 'complete jurisdiction thereof?' Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means. "

    This is further enhanced by the words of another 14th Amendment writer, John Bingham:

    “…every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural-born citizen.”

    Once again we see the plural 'parents' used instead of the singular 'a parent'. So, a child's parents were very much on the minds of those that wrote the amendment and those that wrote the resolution that made McCain eligible, and obama ineligible, to run for President.
  • iamthem... keymanjim 2011/03/07 15:54:46
    iamthemob ~ the 444th Guru ~
    Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in the gaps left by the Constitution. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:" (I removed irrelevant provisions).

    Anyone born inside the United States (NOTE - the exception are those not subject to U.S. jurisdiction - meaning that they cannot be charged with a crime, etc., in the U.S. - which excludes those with diplomatic or similar immunities - THAT'S what jurisdiction means)

    Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.

    Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national

    Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year

    Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
  • keymanjim iamthem... 2011/03/07 23:35:34
    keymanjim
    There are no gaps to be filled.
    For a person to be a US citizen they must be under the jurisdiction of the US. The writers of the 14th Amendment agreed that the jurisdiction should be complete and exclusive. The only way a person can be born under the complete jurisdiction of the US is for them to be born to parents who are both already US citizens.
    So, if even one parent is not a US citizen then the child is born with that parents foreign citizenship. If they are born with foreign citizenship then they are not under the complete jurisdiction of the US and are not born a US citizen.

    That is part of the US Constitution. it is the law of the land.
    US code does not override the US Constitution.
  • Scott 2011/03/06 04:36:28
  • iamthem... Scott 2011/03/06 05:00:37
    iamthemob ~ the 444th Guru ~
    +1
    The problem is - some of it is sticking (in the sense that people are still believing that there is an issue, or focusing on it, etc.).
  • Gadfly2009 2011/03/06 03:43:06
    Gadfly2009
    +1
    I've seen the birth certificate. At least I THINK it was the birth certificate -- my Swahili's a little rusty. Date of birth was listed as August 4, 1961 and under Mother it said "White Skank."
  • iamthem... Gadfly2009 2011/03/06 03:56:40
    iamthemob ~ the 444th Guru ~
    That was...lord, a throw down weren't it?

    Since we're on that level..."No...I believe "White Skank" was YO' mama!"
  • Gadfly2009 iamthem... 2011/03/06 04:04:19
    Gadfly2009
    +1
    Careful. My dad's almost 90, but he might still kick your butt. :o)
  • AARGH! 2011/03/06 03:41:05 (edited)
  • angelbaby 2011/03/06 03:36:56
    angelbaby
    +1
    Not sure? curious about that myself. Do you you think maybe the media keeps it going?

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