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Why do people live longer in nations with socialized medicine?

David Maverick, The Godless Liberal July 04, 2009 13:02:52

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  • +2 raves right this time July 04, 2009 14:08:06
    right this time
    Let' see . . .(1) Standing in all of those lines waiting for health care builds bone density, abs and core muscle groups. (2) Knowing that you have health insurance, no matter how bad, relieves anxiety and worry -a major killer. (3) Unable to pick your own "Doctor-feel-good" you end up with a doctor who actually tells you what is wrong with you. (4) The heavy handed, jack-booted, totalitarian approach actually makes you brush your teeth and get regular check-ups from the moment you come into the world. (5) Since your care is rationed you choose to get sick less often. But there is a down side to all of this. You spend your entire life with deep feelings of inferiority because your rich American cousins have big expensive health care programs and even bigger expensive funerals. Oh, the pain and humilitation of living with socialized medicine!
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  • moomoof "Jin Kazama!" July 07, 2009 05:41:08
    moomoof
    who knows less stress and less money problems than here
  • Socialite Lola July 07, 2009 04:09:37
    Socialite Lola
    Less stress maybe?
    forbes.com — According to a new report released by the Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development (OECD), happiness levels are highest in "socialist" European countries like Denmark, Finland, and Sweden. The U.S. didn't even make the top 10.
    They have some of the highest standards of living and quality of life indexes in the world.
  • Jodi July 05, 2009 02:12:35
    Jodi
    Maybe they tend to seek preventative care because they can actually go and do so then....
  • +1 raves
    Howard Beale II July 04, 2009 23:08:58
    Howard Beale II
    It could be because people who are able to stave off illnesses before they become critically serious are likely to live longer.

    or...

    All advanced countries except the U... No, let me rephrase. All *industrialized* countries except the United States have socialized medicine. I do not know of too many third world countries that do, but there are some, of course. Now, consider also that the US has been engaged in one war after another continuously since the end of World War 2, unlike the other industrialized countries. That, too, might play a part.
  • +1 raves
    BigwayneO July 04, 2009 17:23:17
    BigwayneO
    Well for one, I do know that the stuff you get at the grocery store is (for the most part) not better then buying stuff at McDonald. Then add that with the fact that they move around a lot more in every day living, little exercises that do not strain the body. In fact there was a thing on "good morning America" on this island in the Philippines I think it was, where like 135 and riding a bike, and tending a garden....it was crazy. Sceinteist say it was from great organic eating and non stop small "workouts" threw out the day.
  • kalynn July 04, 2009 14:38:20
    kalynn
    They don't get your facts straight
  • +2 raves
    right this time July 04, 2009 14:08:06
    right this time
    Let' see . . .(1) Standing in all of those lines waiting for health care builds bone density, abs and core muscle groups. (2) Knowing that you have health insurance, no matter how bad, relieves anxiety and worry -a major killer. (3) Unable to pick your own "Doctor-feel-good" you end up with a doctor who actually tells you what is wrong with you. (4) The heavy handed, jack-booted, totalitarian approach actually makes you brush your teeth and get regular check-ups from the moment you come into the world. (5) Since your care is rationed you choose to get sick less often. But there is a down side to all of this. You spend your entire life with deep feelings of inferiority because your rich American cousins have big expensive health care programs and even bigger expensive funerals. Oh, the pain and humilitation of living with socialized medicine!
  • beachbum July 04, 2009 13:57:19
    beachbum
    They have to in order to pay the taxes for it???
  • Ex-Angel {Fallen From Grace} ~Patron Saint of Sinners~
    ...They don't have a choice?
  • +1 raves
    kmay July 04, 2009 13:45:59 (edited)
    kmay
    Who says so??? Obama shill.

    "My health care prejudices crumbled on the way to a medical school class. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute.

    Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care.

    Dr. Jacques Chaoulli faces the media in Montreal in June 2005, after he got Canada's Supreme Court to strike down a Quebec law banning private insurance for services covered under Medicare — a decision the rocked the country's universal health care system.
    I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic — with a three-year wait list; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.

    Government researchers now note that more than 1.5 million Ontarians (or 12% of that province's population...









    Who says so??? Obama shill.

    "My health care prejudices crumbled on the way to a medical school class. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute.

    Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care.

    Dr. Jacques Chaoulli faces the media in Montreal in June 2005, after he got Canada's Supreme Court to strike down a Quebec law banning private insurance for services covered under Medicare — a decision the rocked the country's universal health care system.
    I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic — with a three-year wait list; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.

    Government researchers now note that more than 1.5 million Ontarians (or 12% of that province's population) can't find family physicians. Health officials in one Nova Scotia community actually resorted to a lottery to determine who'd get a doctor's appointment.

    These problems are not unique to Canada — they characterize all government-run health care systems."

    Dr. Jacques Chaoulli
    after he got Canada's Supreme Court to strike down a Quebec law banning private insurance for services covered under Medicare — a decision the rocked the country's universal health care system.

    WE DO NOT WANT, OR NEED, SOCIALIZED MEDICINE.


    We just need to overhall our free market system...what about Tort reform to start....why won't Obama allow it??? Follow the money!
    (more)
  • +3 raves
    Tea in ... kmay July 04, 2009 16:21:46
    Tea in the Harbor
    The World Health Organization says so, as do the statistics kept over the last forty years or so. Our life expectancies rate 50th in the world. All developed countries with universal care out live us. Another epic fail of our system is infant mortality, where we place 44th among member nations. And we spend twice as much, on average, as those countries.
    I guess you could say we are dying of capitalist stupidity.
    Over 70% of Americans, according to recent polling, want a public option, but it looks as though the dupes of the insurance industry are ready to fight reason at every turn.
  • kmay Tea in ... July 04, 2009 17:43:55 (edited)
    kmay
    No, they want reform. Tort reform is needed as well as regulated Ins and Big Pharma.

    Socilaized medicine does not work anywhere successfully!
  • +1 raves
    Tea in ... kmay July 04, 2009 17:55:14
    Tea in the Harbor
    Every country with universal care has longer lives and lower infant mortality than we do, and at half the cost. I think those are all steps in the right direction. If you want to continue to pay more, say goodbye to your parents earlier, and watch children die because of their parents poverty, you have that right.
    The question asked in the poll was "Would you support a public health care option?" so it had nothing to do with tort reform, but the President has called for that reform as well.
  • JTron kmay July 05, 2009 21:39:50
    JTron
    I disagree. Japan has probably the most controlled form of national health care. They spend about $2700 per capita, we spend $6700. Japanese life expectancy is 75 years, ours is 69. Yes tort reform is needed. We also need to get the greedy insurance companies out of the picture. They raked in 13 billion in PROFITS
  • steptot... Tea in ... July 04, 2009 20:25:55
    steptotheright
    Can a direct cause and effect relationship be proven? I would say that our affluent, leisurely lifestyles play a greater role than whether we have socialized medicine. It seems to rain every time i wash my truck therefore washing my truck makes it rain?
  • Tea in ... steptot... July 05, 2009 18:26:58
    Tea in the Harbor
    Affluent leisurely lifestyle? Where do you live? Europeans, who have most of the systems that we are using for comparison, have a shorter work week and more vacation time on average than we do. But I do believe that conditions other than health care have an effect. They have much less stress than we do. They don't have to weigh the costs of health care against paying the rent or feeding the children like many Americans do. They also have more stringent regulations as to the level of different toxins in their food and environment than we do. China actually has two sets of industry, one that manufactures to European health standards and one that allows the extra carcinogens and other toxins that the FDA allows. So I don't think universal health care will bring our life expectancies up to those of the rest of the developed world, but it would be a step in the right direction.
  • steptot... Tea in ... July 05, 2009 18:54:25
    steptotheright
    If you were to argue that because of socialism they lead a simpler lifestyle, I would buy it. They lead a simpler lifestyle in part because they don't have as much expendable income as they pay it in taxes. From what I can tell they do suffer stress because of their healthcare system. The stress of waitng for diagnostic tests. The stress of whether the government will approve their treatment. But I am certain you will argue thier is no downside to a utopian health care system provided by the government. I return to my oriiginal point that the premise of the original question is based on analogy not provable cause and effect.
  • Tea in ... steptot... July 05, 2009 19:17:33
    Tea in the Harbor
    I wouldn't argue what you speculate at all, no system that seeks to accomplish such a task will be problem free. There are, however, thirty or forty systems already in place around the world that can be studied in the design of ours. I think we spend too much time arguing solutions and not enough studying problems.
  • steptot... Tea in ... July 05, 2009 19:28:15
    steptotheright
    One could study the probelm and come to a very different conclusion than nationalizing health care. We could look at the ridiculous malpractice awards we allow in this country. We could look at the ridiculous inflation of cost by hospitals to get what they want form the insurance companies. We could look at the profit motives of the insurance companies. I agree changes need to be made. I however have never seen the government provied a service efficiently and effectively. Socialized medicine gives health care as a right but it can only work if the tax base can afford to pay for it. Without revenue either more taxes or cuts in service. Their is no competition as an incentive to provide good services. I have dealt with military and civilian hospitals. Never in a civilian hospital have I been told I can place my name on a waiting list to make an appt. as I have in military hospitals
  • Tea in ... steptot... July 05, 2009 19:37:53
    Tea in the Harbor
    Our acceptance of mediocrity and sometimes incompetence in government services is another subject, and one that needs to be addressed. Changing that would solve a multitude of our problems.
  • steptot... Tea in ... July 05, 2009 19:48:59 (edited)
    steptotheright
    Trusting in the government to provide for our individual needs is a very dangerous path. If the government becomes the only provider of health care how do we have recourse if they give us mediocre services? We vote in new folks who claim to want to make change and then give us the same. At least under our present system an individual has some type of choice.
  • Tea in ... steptot... July 05, 2009 20:16:47
    Tea in the Harbor
    That may be true, but not as dangerous as systematically accepting incompetence. I remember when I was a kid, watching the space program go from Mercury all the way through the moon landings. I was very proud of my government back then, I felt they were accomplishing something only they could do, and that it was something that would benefit all people. Science became the bridge between us and the Soviets, the common purpose it gave us lead to Detente, the SALT talks, and the end of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) as the reason for peace. We were the envy of the world back then, I would love to see the pride in my grandson's eyes that I felt as I watched those grainy videos from the surface of the moon. Kids in the forties and fifties got that pride from watching their country rebuild Europe after WWII. Where can today's children find that feeling?
    Today it seems all that interests us is profit. Capitalism has become our God instead of our servant, and because of that what we earn has become more important than what we do. That is a recipe for failure in both government and industry.
  • steptot... Tea in ... July 05, 2009 20:43:58 (edited)
    steptotheright
    All the wonderful things you described happened when capitalism wasn't seen as evil. So isn't more our attitude than our capitalist system that needs to change. I would also remind you the space race was done mainly to prove capitalism was better than socialism/communism. It was the strenght of our capitalist nation that allowed us to free Europe from tyranny and then to rebuild it. I fear if we continue on a socialist path the government will become our master and not our servant.
  • Tea in ... steptot... July 05, 2009 20:49:10
    Tea in the Harbor
    I have another conversation going on right now, and I just wrote something there that I think is also an appropriate response here.
    "We have allowed capitalism to become our God rather than our servant."
    I think that is why capitalism is seen as evil by so many today.
  • steptot... Tea in ... July 05, 2009 21:33:09
    steptotheright
    So to solve the problem we let government become our God?

    In socialism the state is seen as the utimate arbitrator.
  • Tea in ... steptot... July 06, 2009 04:43:03
    Tea in the Harbor
    I don't want a God, I want reason.
  • steptot... Tea in ... July 06, 2009 04:54:32
    steptotheright
    Well reason would tell me that the more the government controls the more power it has. Power corrupts total power corrupts totally.
  • JTron steptot... July 05, 2009 21:45:29
    JTron
    I would think an affluent, leisurely lifestyle would reduce stress and help to increase lifespan. Our major problem as a country is that 32% of our population is obese. Obesity is the root cause of most major health issues, heart disease, diabetes, stroke, etc.
  • steptot... JTron July 06, 2009 00:38:51
    steptotheright
    Thus my argument that we live affluent and leisurely lifestyles. People who truly work had to survive do not have trouble with obesity. I would give any third world nation as an example.
  • JTron steptot... July 06, 2009 06:08:31
    JTron
    Now you're at the other end of the spectrum. Suffering malnutrition is not the cure for obesity.
  • steptot... JTron July 06, 2009 15:56:30
    steptotheright
    I did not mean that, I meant that people who have to physically work to meet their needs tend not to be obese. I should have said many third world nations. Not every person in third world nations is starving. We live a sedintary live style and eat twice the calories needed for survival. So I concede if we had socialized medicine eventually people would pay most of their income to taxes and would have to work harder to survive.
  • JTron steptot... July 06, 2009 21:15:45
    JTron
    I don't see "most" of our income going to taxes. 2005 data show per capita income at about $34,000. Per capita taxes from all sources (federal, state, local) is $2,200. So on a per capita basis we pay about 6.5% in taxes. We've got a ways to go before most of our income goes to taxes.
  • steptot... JTron July 06, 2009 21:19:24
    steptotheright
    You missed my point. If we become totally socialist we would pay a greater percentage in taxes and therefore have less to spend on luxury. i think your numbers only include direct taxation by the way. Gas tax cigarette tax sales tax are not included.
  • JTron kmay July 05, 2009 21:36:52
    JTron
    You put lots of words on the screen but did not even attempt to answer the question. If socialized medicine is as bad as you portray, why do we rank 27th in life span, right behind Singapore (WHO 2003)? We do rank first in cost per capita for health care.
  • Sparky066 July 04, 2009 13:06:34
    Sparky066
    where's the stats?
    I'm not sure this is true
  • +1 raves
    David M... Sparky066 July 04, 2009 13:51:02
    David Maverick, The Godless Liberal






  • +1 raves
    Sparky066 David M... July 04, 2009 14:30:08
    Sparky066
    Good, now what are the social conditions, enviromental conditions, etc... in the countries with a longer life span?
    The USA has a high stress level due to unemployment and the economy, hell even working causes higher stress levels.
    so do you think it's the medicine or a overall better social conditoning of the general population
  • +1 raves
    Tea in ... Sparky066 July 04, 2009 16:23:41
    Tea in the Harbor
    The people of Europe have all those things as well, you are grasping at straws.
  • kmay Tea in ... July 04, 2009 17:45:55
    kmay
    No he is right. All stats can be skewed depending on your agenda driven outcome you seek.
  • +1 raves
    David M... kmay July 04, 2009 19:39:17
    David Maverick, The Godless Liberal
    facts don't carry a bias.
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