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Which is better: child labor, creating entrepreneurial capitalists: or poverty expansion through gov't subsidy?

Minarchist 2011/12/07 11:31:46
Capitalism
Poverty
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My Granfather had forethought into the prevention of my father getting into trouble through making my father starting working at the gas station when he turned 8. Through this my father made a modest living but learned skills. At one entire summer my grandfather was not around, making my father run the store, paying the employees buying the fuel and paying the bills. Prior to graduating at the age of 17 the conglomerate asked my father if he wanted his own store. Though the location of the store prevented the deal it did instill a skill level that later moved onto other jobs. I had to wait until I was 17 in which I left to the military for 4 years to get my skills. However notice the difference in age and how far I was set behind. Now imagine a 18 year old today, with no trade or skill set level looking for a job. Imagine if there was no minimum wage and child labor was allowed. Now let me ask you would you rather be out of high school with no experience, or out of highschool with 10 years worth of experience?
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  • The Bantam Seditioner 2011/12/07 22:37:08
    Capitalism
    The Bantam Seditioner
    +3
    I worked as a Junior Salesman at my Dad's carpet store as a kid, while also home-schooling for four hours a day. Nobody 'forced" me to work...I saw that the work was fun and rewarding, and I took to it like a duck to water. My wages (which were ample for a kid my age), combined with the work experience I acquired and the genuinely great time I had richly and dramatically increased the quality of my childhood. In contrast, the brief time I spent in public and private schools made me feel more like a head of cattle than a thinking individual with my own interests, opinions, and ambitions.

    Maybe my own "child labor story" is an exception to the rule and some really have been unexploited...but I suspect that, for every young worker whose lot in life was improved by these laws, there were just as many, like me, who would much rather have been allowed to make a living than spend 8 hours a day learning nothing at all.

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  • TuringsChild 2011/12/08 21:49:18
  • Classical Liberal 2011/12/07 22:57:48
    Capitalism
    Classical Liberal
    +2
    I have to disagree with the strength by which you push your ideological mindset, as it is inconsistent with libertarian beliefs, but I do generally agree with this article.

    Forced child labor is, of course, abhorrent. What happened during the Industrial Revolution was sick and although I disagree with child labor laws, we are better that it was stopped.
  • gigero Classic... 2011/12/07 23:16:59
    gigero
    +3
    Though I'm sure there were children being forced to work against their will during the IR, we have to keep in mind that in its early days the only way for a large family to have enough money to buy food to survive was for everyone, including the children, to work jobs which from our perspective are horrifying and disgusting. If child labour laws had been passed and enforced in the early 19th century, many of those children would have been doomed to starvation, as they had been for generations before. Only the investment in capital goods through savings eventually made the productivity of labour high enough so that children did not have to work anymore to provide for their basic subsistence, and only when most of this "child labour of necessity" had disappeared by virtue of the natural market process did the state step in, declare it illegal and take the credit.

    So, I agree with your general sentiment, but the child labour under the IR was not necessarily a bad thing and the government did not do anything to stop it.
  • Classic... gigero 2011/12/08 02:11:28
    Classical Liberal
    +2
    I agree with that. And most of those children worked willingly because they knew they wouldn't get to eat if they didn't. It's still sick that so many families were put into that situation in the first place.
  • Classic... Classic... 2011/12/08 04:32:19
    Classical Liberal
    +2
    that is to say, the industrious nature of free men in the free market corrected this problem. This is important to note.

    But when those who vote by emotion hear us talk about repealing or weakening child labor laws, they imagine that we wish for the average American family to return to this situation, and they believe that this is the natural condition of the free market. It is equally important to take note of this, otherwise we will never win our detractors over.
  • gigero Classic... 2011/12/08 10:34:57
    gigero
    +1
    I agree completely, especially with the first sentence of your second post.

    I just can't understand why so many people insist on looking at the 19th century from a 21st century perspective and shudder in disgust at what "the free market did". Instead, they should be looking at the giant leaps in standard of living every segment of society made compared to the centuries which preceded it, and discover what made this possible!

    But it is so hard to get people to think past slogans and received popular "wisdom" (eg "capitalism and communism are both awful and don't take human nature into account, we need a middle-of-the-road compromise, capitalism leads to monopoly, economics only takes material things into account, etc etc etc), simply because we who have actually looked at what "capitalism" -- or the spontaneous order and self-organizing system of voluntary cooperation -- is and what it does are evidently in the extreme minority..
  • Classic... gigero 2011/12/08 18:07:44
    Classical Liberal
    Indeed. I often try to reference the observations of our detractors -- Lord Keynes and Karl Marx among the biggest who agree completely on the problems but then disagree considerably on the solutions -- rather than the observations of ourselves. It forces our detractors to consider our argument rather than write it off as "libertarian hogwash".
  • The Bantam Seditioner 2011/12/07 22:37:08
    Capitalism
    The Bantam Seditioner
    +3
    I worked as a Junior Salesman at my Dad's carpet store as a kid, while also home-schooling for four hours a day. Nobody 'forced" me to work...I saw that the work was fun and rewarding, and I took to it like a duck to water. My wages (which were ample for a kid my age), combined with the work experience I acquired and the genuinely great time I had richly and dramatically increased the quality of my childhood. In contrast, the brief time I spent in public and private schools made me feel more like a head of cattle than a thinking individual with my own interests, opinions, and ambitions.

    Maybe my own "child labor story" is an exception to the rule and some really have been unexploited...but I suspect that, for every young worker whose lot in life was improved by these laws, there were just as many, like me, who would much rather have been allowed to make a living than spend 8 hours a day learning nothing at all.
  • Fannie 2011/12/07 16:51:44
    Poverty
    Fannie
    What a ploy...............what it is, what am I? What bullschitt
  • gigero 2011/12/07 12:07:12
    Capitalism
    gigero
    +2
    And the only reason why parents can now afford to send their children to school is because the productivity of labour has gone up to such a degree that children don't *have* to work in order for the family to make enough money to buy food anymore. This never would have happened without the accumulation of capital goods under the capitalist mode of production..
  • JoeBtfsplk 2011/12/07 11:38:14
    Capitalism
    JoeBtfsplk
    story last nite somewhere on indoctrination tube about prison labor cutting in on American business

    ref. Talapia fish culture
  • JoeBtfsplk JoeBtfsplk 2011/12/07 11:44:48
    JoeBtfsplk
    +2
    too bad our public school system only teaches whine

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