What would you think if you knew a friend of yours was going to get an abortion?
BigT
2012/06/03 10:43:51
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Top Opinion
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melly~thwarting Satan since... 2012/06/03 14:56:19I think that she should have the right to choose, and since she can't afford ...
+15What's morally wrong is the fact that, in 2012, we women are still having to defend something as basic as self-determination.
First off, she starts dating a guy that I do not like who has abused her emotionally in the past and who overall is a douche and doesn't care for anyone but himself. But that's her choice. Whatever. I don't like him and think he's the wrong choice for her, but it's her decision and I'm glad she's happy.
Then she starts having sex with him. Usually she takes birth control, but she doesn't wear protection. And I told her, "Unless you're in a committed relationship, ready to have a baby and have it with this man who you are positive wants to be a father, you should be using condoms with your birth control. Period." She's like, "I know."
She's had sex with him multiple times unprotected, and the day she thinks she got pregnant is a day that she was irresponsible and forgot to take her birth control medicine. I was like, "Honey, are you serious?" I was like, "Did you use protection, at least?" She responds with, "We didn't have any."
"WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY"?!
She infuriates me at times. If you don'...
First off, she starts dating a guy that I do not like who has abused her emotionally in the past and who overall is a douche and doesn't care for anyone but himself. But that's her choice. Whatever. I don't like him and think he's the wrong choice for her, but it's her decision and I'm glad she's happy.
Then she starts having sex with him. Usually she takes birth control, but she doesn't wear protection. And I told her, "Unless you're in a committed relationship, ready to have a baby and have it with this man who you are positive wants to be a father, you should be using condoms with your birth control. Period." She's like, "I know."
She's had sex with him multiple times unprotected, and the day she thinks she got pregnant is a day that she was irresponsible and forgot to take her birth control medicine. I was like, "Honey, are you serious?" I was like, "Did you use protection, at least?" She responds with, "We didn't have any."
"WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY"?!
She infuriates me at times. If you don't have protection and you know you've forgotten to take your birth control medicine, DO NOT engage in sexual activity. It's not that hard. Close your legs, keep his penis in his pants.
I'm so angry with her because she knows better, and due to her irresponsibility she's getting an abortion. It's not the fetus's fault that she made stupid choices.
EDIT: I chose the dissenting opinion because none of the options completely met my answer preferences.
That's debatable.
If you're excuse is "we didn't have any" (which is perfectly acceptable) you probably shouldn't be having a child.
And if a medical proffesional will do it for her, even better. But i'm sure all you pro-lifers are itching for a return to these good old days.
Incase you didn't figure it out, i was referring to home abortions with methods such as coathangers, alcohol intoxication, a quick tumble down the stairs.
I can say with absolute honesty and sincerity that I would rather have not been born, then to live some of the lives I’ve seen.
In effect you're proposing torturing women and massively hindering their lives and employment prospect when most of the time the only reason they're pregnant is because of birth control failure. In my book, that makes you a sadist.
To summarise, this conversation is completely pointless.
As it is current surgery leaves negligible scaring, 18 years ago i was operated on, consequently i have a 4 inch scar across my abdomen, a year ago my grandmother was operated upon, she has a small slightly discoloured star shaped scar, about half an inch across.
Both of them have more perceptable physical scarring from childbirth.
Oh, and in my scenario i never said you were carrying a human child. In my mind it was more of an over-extended John Hurt, Alien deal.
(Oh, and don't discuss abortion with me, just the book, passage etc. or don't bother replying.)
a child under a month old has no value.
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16
again, infants under a month old aren't people.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(With the birth rates at the time, some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14
(misscarrying, gods aborting their babies. Note, misscarriage, not failed conception.)
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16
(Slaying the babies for god)
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dash...
a child under a month old has no value.
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16
again, infants under a month old aren't people.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(With the birth rates at the time, some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14
(misscarrying, gods aborting their babies. Note, misscarriage, not failed conception.)
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16
(Slaying the babies for god)
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16
(that one speaks for itself.)
God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents:
Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14
As for my personal opinion on babies, that's irrelevant. If i voiced it, you'd probably block be outright.
"We must become the change we wish to see."
If everyone made decisions based on their moral conscience, we'd see less abortions than we do annually.
As this question indicates, she doesn't seem to be able to afford an abortion. How, then, would she afford a pregnancy and a child? She'd just be sneered and looked down upon as a welfare mommy if she asked for help.
I refuse to see abortion as murder unless you can give me a clear and concise reason as to why it deserves that definition-- because an abortion often takes place before twenty-eight weeks, the earliest point at which a fetus's nervous system has developed enough to be functional. In effect, unless it's past twenty-eight weeks, the fetus isn't developed enough-- in every sense of the word-- to be considered a person.
Really? Where are the stats on this? The joy of the internet is that you can claim almost anything. Besides, correlation does not imply causation.
"As for social stigma since when do they care about it? They did not cared when they got pregnant."
Right, now we're onto slut-shaming. Sex is such a shameful, dirty thing for a woman to have.
"but it can be managed with natural supplements or there are pills that the doc can give you."
Money. Access to health care.
"for affording the cost of pregnancy there are lots of programs out there that can help her."
That's true, and I won't deny that. However, they cannot offset the cost and toll that a pregnancy takes on a woman. Additionally, while many are run just fine, I've seen quite a few that take in women considering abortion unless they have other options, and then throw them out as soon as they've passed six months or so.
"it's your point of view all I can say is that if you see an ultrasound done at 2 weeks the foetus has a heartbeat. "
The problem with using the heartbeat argument is that this can be done artificially. You can take rat heart and pump it independently of a living body. Heck, it's why CP...
Really? Where are the stats on this? The joy of the internet is that you can claim almost anything. Besides, correlation does not imply causation.
"As for social stigma since when do they care about it? They did not cared when they got pregnant."
Right, now we're onto slut-shaming. Sex is such a shameful, dirty thing for a woman to have.
"but it can be managed with natural supplements or there are pills that the doc can give you."
Money. Access to health care.
"for affording the cost of pregnancy there are lots of programs out there that can help her."
That's true, and I won't deny that. However, they cannot offset the cost and toll that a pregnancy takes on a woman. Additionally, while many are run just fine, I've seen quite a few that take in women considering abortion unless they have other options, and then throw them out as soon as they've passed six months or so.
"it's your point of view all I can say is that if you see an ultrasound done at 2 weeks the foetus has a heartbeat. "
The problem with using the heartbeat argument is that this can be done artificially. You can take rat heart and pump it independently of a living body. Heck, it's why CPR works-- because you can stimulate it regardless of its independent function. But you can't artificially stimulate brains or nerves that just aren't working or functioning, which is why I place the point of questionable ethics at that.
"Economic problems? She should have thought about it before she got pregnant(exception rape)."
Here's the thing I hate. You are so self-righteous about this-- like women shouldn't have sex unless they want children, and that if they get pregnant without a partner to support them, the burden is entirely on them. This seems more like an effort to punish women than to protect life. Sex is a natural thing to partake of, and there is no reason why a woman shouldn't be able to have sex and make decisions about her body. Plenty do use contraception-- condoms, BC pills, etc. But they can and do fail. That doesn't make the woman irresponsible or deserving of forced pregnancy.
If you're really in the field of medicine, you should be familiar with the fact that no one can be compelled to give up their bodily integrity to sustain the life of another, even if that person's life is dependent on them. Someone who is a perfect match for someone else who needs an organ transplant, even if it's at minimal risk to him, even if he can "afford" to give up a kidney, cannot be compelled to give up his kidney. If someone has to be hooked up to someone else to survive, the person who has to give up their bodily integrity cannot be compelled to do so. If we use this as our basis, then this has to cover all uses.
"I know first hand that birth control it's not 100% foolproof"
Yes, but using it is responsible. A woman shouldn't be punished for failed birth control.
"and pregnancy it's not a punishment it can be a wonderful thing."
Now THAT is a matter of personal opinion. If I got pregnant, I'd try to get an abortion the same way a trapped animal will chew its leg to get out of a steel trap. The idea of being pregnant is, personally, horrifying and something akin to the end of the world in my mind. Again-- personal take. I know other women want kids and don't think of pregnancy the same way, and more power to them. But for me, there is no 'can'-- a pregnancy is something I do not want with all my might, yet I refuse to give up my sexual needs for it. The solution, therefore, is to take all other precautions possible and be responsible.
"You expect me to feel sorry for somebody that went bar hopping and end in bed with God knows who, and then not have the presence of mind to go and get the morning after pill."
Slut-shaming, again.How does that make it any different than if a woman had sex with a long-time partner? You don't go for a mornin...
"I know first hand that birth control it's not 100% foolproof"
Yes, but using it is responsible. A woman shouldn't be punished for failed birth control.
"and pregnancy it's not a punishment it can be a wonderful thing."
Now THAT is a matter of personal opinion. If I got pregnant, I'd try to get an abortion the same way a trapped animal will chew its leg to get out of a steel trap. The idea of being pregnant is, personally, horrifying and something akin to the end of the world in my mind. Again-- personal take. I know other women want kids and don't think of pregnancy the same way, and more power to them. But for me, there is no 'can'-- a pregnancy is something I do not want with all my might, yet I refuse to give up my sexual needs for it. The solution, therefore, is to take all other precautions possible and be responsible.
"You expect me to feel sorry for somebody that went bar hopping and end in bed with God knows who, and then not have the presence of mind to go and get the morning after pill."
Slut-shaming, again.How does that make it any different than if a woman had sex with a long-time partner? You don't go for a morning after pill every time you have sex. How DOES that make it different from a "bar-hopping" woman? Really? Is it your judgment on her moral character, and not about whether she protected herself and insisted on condoms?