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Were you aware the ATF put thousands of semi-automatic guns in the hands of Mexican drug cartels?

Civic Minded 2011/06/11 14:10:15
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Thankfully, both Democrat and Republican members of the House are calling upon the Obama Administration to be forthcoming with who initiated the failed plan named "Fast and Furious" which sent thousands of semi-automatic weapons across the border into the hands of Mexican drug cartels PURPOSELY! Those who initiated this disastrous idea need to accept responsibility now!!!

Please read the attached link to learn about the investigation then comment.

Read More: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/269148/issa...

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Top Opinion

  • Slade 2011/06/11 14:40:09
    Yes, I knew about it.
    Slade
    +11
    A US border agent was shot and killed by one of the weapons. I think this was intentional so they could show that a large percentage of guns in Mexico were coming from the US so they could pass some sort of gun control laws except it backfired and now the Feds are caught.

    Never trust the government.

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  • Brosia 2011/09/29 01:03:37
    Yes, I knew about it.
    Brosia
    +1
    I thought I was loosing my mental capacities when I heard that it was not a rouge agent but orders from the top. Why would this have sounded like a great idea?
  • coolrayfruge 2011/06/16 17:49:53
    No, I didn't know. Thanks for clueing me in.
    coolrayfruge
    No but I'm not surprised.
    I think its a stratagy to keep the profitable " War on Drug's" going , Buy both government agency's like the ATF and the Mexican Drug Cartel..
    Both have alot of money invested in its operation.
    Is it a surprise that with so many people calling for a end to "War on drugs" and "Marijuana prohabition".
    That all this is happening.?
    That would be alot of lost revenue coming in for the both sides..
    It wouldn't be good for business for either side if they lost that revenue.
  • Myrle Hulme 2011/06/13 11:14:27
    No, I didn't know. Thanks for clueing me in.
    Myrle Hulme
  • onebad 2011/06/13 07:07:11 (edited)
  • MegaFortunateSon 2011/06/12 23:29:29
    No, I didn't know. Thanks for clueing me in.
    MegaFortunateSon
    It's believable. The War on Drugs is a waste of time and money.
  • jimrthy... MegaFor... 2011/06/14 18:49:58
    jimrthy BN-0
    Depends on what you think its purpose is.

    It's turned most Americans into obedient sheep and turned our peace keepers into the standing army the Founding Fathers were so worried about.
  • Racefish 2011/06/12 22:46:59
    Yes, I knew about it.
    Racefish
    That's why the Senate is investigating this stupid practice.
  • Dwight-AFCL>dogsbody 2011/06/12 22:21:20
    Yes, I knew about it.
    Dwight-AFCL>dogsbody
    I first heard of it shortly after the Mexican Government sought to bring legal action against the individual Gun Store owners, who I believe were the people to blow the whistle that they were acting on ATF's request. Then we heard they were acting on Justice Debt orders.

    Stupid people.
  • Freeranger 2011/06/12 21:59:29
    Yes, I knew about it.
    Freeranger
    +1
    The truly bizarre part is that Obama and his minions are in agreement with the new U.N. law which will attempt to make gun ownership for law abiding citizens obsolete in the near future.
    Go figure.
  • Civic M... Freeranger 2011/06/12 22:12:56
    Civic Minded
    +1
    There are always ulterior motives. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
  • jimrthy... Freeranger 2011/06/14 18:48:35
    jimrthy BN-0
    Isn't this just part of shoving that down our throats?
  • suejkw 2011/06/12 20:12:24
    No, I didn't know. Thanks for clueing me in.
    suejkw
    What's a word worse then 'stupid'? Our govt is getting dumber & dumber.
  • jimrthy... suejkw 2011/06/14 18:47:58
    jimrthy BN-0
    I don't know if I can stretch my credibility to blame this on stupidity.
  • Anon 2011/06/12 16:01:21
    No, I didn't know. Thanks for clueing me in.
    Anon
    +1
    It doesn't surprise me though. Coca cola pays for paramilitary in Columbia. Saddam Hussein was originally as US/UK puppet and given training and support before he starting thinking for himself. The CIA funded and trained the Mujahhadeen and the Taliban to fight the USSR and now they're thinking for themselves, hence our 'war on terror'. The CIA backed coups of despots in Sierra Leon and Somalia, hence the massive US naval presence off the Somali coast. (Does anyone else see a pattern here?)

    It's funny how Americans get shocked every time they hear something like this but honestly our governments and big companies have been doing this for hundreds of years and they will continue to do so for hundreds of years. If you're going to have a go at Obama for this then you need to ask yourself how much power you think your president actually has.
  • suejkw Anon 2011/06/12 20:19:47
    suejkw
    We also helped Diem in Vietnam as well as 'helped' get rid of him when he no longer served our 'purposes'.Have you noticed that we help put dictators in power 'to fight' the the communists? Is a dictator better? We helped overthrow Batista in Cuba to put Castro in power there but he didn't want to 'obey' the US so now he's a communist? As long as his people like him,why should we decide what govt a particular country has? Why don't we do something about China's govt? Answer:they have more people then we do as well as being our trading partner.Why do we trade with China anyway? Most of the stuff they send us is cheap junk.
  • Anon suejkw 2011/06/13 17:58:50
    Anon
    So we're in agreement then?

    The only thing I can find that I disagree with what you have written is about Batista. The US government were trying to help Batista, they were trying to prevent the emergence of Communism in Cuba and all over the world. Why would the US try to put a Communist government in power just off its coast?
  • suejkw Anon 2011/06/16 20:30:46
    suejkw
    Batista was OUR dictator that WE helped put in power.The Cuban people wanted him out.When he no longer served OUR purpose,we helped Castro overthrow him. He didn't start out as a 'communist',a term that is often a mislabel.When Russia is the only country that helps,THEN they're termed 'communist'.Do you think our country is a true democracy? Consider this:we elect the politicians who go to D.C.(democracy).But,as soon as these guys get elected,they do what THEY want to do! THAT'S called ANARCHY! If we had a bigger say in what goes on in this country & had the right to vote on important issues,how many of us would vote to invade this or that country & start a war? How many of us would vote to trade with China? We owe them a heck of alot of money at the present time.
  • Anon suejkw 2011/06/17 07:48:20
    Anon
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make... I still stand by my original post. Castro was always a communist - it is a label given for the ideology he followed, not for who backed him. Castro was always a communist, the reason for his revolution was agrarian reform (taking the land from the top 1% of the population and redistributing it to the farmers themselves - sounds pretty communist to me.) The US may have assisted him at the beginning but obviously changed tack once they realised his policies were at odds with America's politics.

    "Consider this:we elect the politicians who go to D.C.(democracy).But,as soon as these guys get elected,they do what THEY want to do! THAT'S called ANARCHY!" - that is not anarchy, its called a "representative democracy." Anarchy is a total lack of government/authority altogether. What the populations of most countries actually want is "direct democracy". To my knowledge, the country coming closest to that description is Switzerland so it is possible. But that is not what countries like the US or the UK has, despite purporting to be democratic and free countries.

    The fact of the matter is, the people at the top are always going to abuse their positions of power unless fundamental change is evoked. Those with the power to do something ar...
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make... I still stand by my original post. Castro was always a communist - it is a label given for the ideology he followed, not for who backed him. Castro was always a communist, the reason for his revolution was agrarian reform (taking the land from the top 1% of the population and redistributing it to the farmers themselves - sounds pretty communist to me.) The US may have assisted him at the beginning but obviously changed tack once they realised his policies were at odds with America's politics.

    "Consider this:we elect the politicians who go to D.C.(democracy).But,as soon as these guys get elected,they do what THEY want to do! THAT'S called ANARCHY!" - that is not anarchy, its called a "representative democracy." Anarchy is a total lack of government/authority altogether. What the populations of most countries actually want is "direct democracy". To my knowledge, the country coming closest to that description is Switzerland so it is possible. But that is not what countries like the US or the UK has, despite purporting to be democratic and free countries.

    The fact of the matter is, the people at the top are always going to abuse their positions of power unless fundamental change is evoked. Those with the power to do something are too corrupt to change things. So we should stop pretending like this sort of thing doesn't happen all the time, or at least stop being surprised when we find out it does occur, time after time.
    (more)
  • shadow76 2011/06/12 14:06:41 (edited)
    Yes, I knew about it.
    shadow76
    +1
    Owebama should be impeached for this alone, he and Holder, The buck stops at the top. Another reason to get rid of the ATF,
  • Rick Armin 2011/06/12 12:00:26
    No, I didn't know. Thanks for clueing me in.
    Rick Armin
    +2
    Nothing about the (B)ATF would surprise me. They dropped the B from their old name, "Burn All Toddlers First" to give them more options for killing babies. BTW, are you sure the plan failed?
  • Nudenz 2011/06/12 11:58:14
    No, I didn't know. Thanks for clueing me in.
    Nudenz
    That's insane. Why can't you give Obama a break? The President does not run the Country.
  • Pieter Joubert 2011/06/12 09:26:12
    Yes, I knew about it.
    Pieter Joubert
    The US has a long tradition of arming despots and drug cartels.

    PHOENIX — The Mexican agents who moved in on a safe house full of drug dealers last May were not prepared for the fire power that greeted them.
    When the shooting was over, eight agents were dead. Among the guns the police recovered was an assault rifle traced back across the border to a dingy gun store here called X-Caliber Guns.
    Now, the owner, George Iknadosian, will go on trial on charges he sold hundreds of weapons, mostly AK-47 rifles, to smugglers, knowing they would send them to a drug cartel in the western state of Sinaloa. The guns helped fuel the gang warfare in which more than 6,000 Mexicans died last year.
    Mexican authorities have long complained that American gun dealers are arming the cartels. This case is the most prominent prosecution of an American gun dealer since the United States promised Mexico two years ago it would clamp down on the smuggling of weapons across the border. It also offers a rare glimpse of how weapons delivered to American gun dealers are being moved into Mexico and wielded in horrific crimes.
    “We had a direct pipeline from Iknadosian to the Sinaloa cartel,” said Thomas G. Mangan, a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Phoenix.
    Dru...










    The US has a long tradition of arming despots and drug cartels.

    PHOENIX — The Mexican agents who moved in on a safe house full of drug dealers last May were not prepared for the fire power that greeted them.
    When the shooting was over, eight agents were dead. Among the guns the police recovered was an assault rifle traced back across the border to a dingy gun store here called X-Caliber Guns.
    Now, the owner, George Iknadosian, will go on trial on charges he sold hundreds of weapons, mostly AK-47 rifles, to smugglers, knowing they would send them to a drug cartel in the western state of Sinaloa. The guns helped fuel the gang warfare in which more than 6,000 Mexicans died last year.
    Mexican authorities have long complained that American gun dealers are arming the cartels. This case is the most prominent prosecution of an American gun dealer since the United States promised Mexico two years ago it would clamp down on the smuggling of weapons across the border. It also offers a rare glimpse of how weapons delivered to American gun dealers are being moved into Mexico and wielded in horrific crimes.
    “We had a direct pipeline from Iknadosian to the Sinaloa cartel,” said Thomas G. Mangan, a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Phoenix.
    Drug gangs seek out guns in the United States because the gun-control laws are far tougher in Mexico. Mexican civilians must get approval from the military to buy guns and they cannot own large-caliber rifles or high-powered pistols, which are considered military weapons.
    The ease with which Mr. Iknadosian and two other men transported weapons to Mexico over a two-year period illustrates just how difficult it is to stop the illicit trade, law enforcement officials here say.
    The gun laws in the United States allow the sale of multiple military-style rifles to American citizens without reporting the sales to the government, and the Mexicans search relatively few cars and trucks going south across their border.
    What is more, the sheer volume of licensed dealers — more than 6,600 along the border alone, many of them operating out of their houses — makes policing them a tall order. Currently the A.T.F. has about 200 agents assigned to the task.
    Smugglers routinely enlist Americans with clean criminal records to buy two or three rifles at a time, often from different shops, then transport them across the border in cars and trucks, often secreting them in door panels or under the hood, law enforcement officials here say. Some of the smuggled weapons are also bought from private individuals at gun shows, and the law requires no notification of the authorities in those cases.
    “We can move against the most outrageous purveyors of arms to Mexico, but the characteristic of the arms trade is it’s a ‘parade of ants’ — it’s not any one big dealer, it’s lots of individuals,” said Arizona’s attorney general, Terry Goddard, who is prosecuting Mr. Iknadosian. “That makes it very hard to detect because it’s often below the radar.”
    The Mexican government began to clamp down on drug cartels in late 2006, unleashing a war that daily deposits dozens of bodies — often gruesomely tortured — on Mexico’s streets. President Felipe Calderón has characterized the stream of smuggled weapons as one of the most significant threats to security in his country. The Mexican authorities say they seized 20,000 weapons from drug gangs in 2008, the majority bought in the United States.
    The authorities in the United States say they do not know how many firearms are transported across the border each year, in part because the federal government does not track gun sales and traces only weapons used in crimes. But A.T.F. officials estimate 90 percent of the weapons recovered in Mexico come from dealers north of the border.
    In 2007, the firearms agency traced 2,400 weapons seized in Mexico back to dealers in the United States, and 1,800 of those came from dealers operating in the four states along the border, with Texas first, followed by California, Arizona and New Mexico.
    Mr. Iknadosian is accused of being one of those dealers. So brazen was his operation that the smugglers paid him in advance for the guns and the straw buyers merely filled out the required paperwork and carried the weapons off, according to A.T.F. investigative reports. The agency said Mr. Iknadosian also sold several guns to undercover agents who had explicitly informed him that they intended to resell them in Mexico.
    Mr. Iknadosian, 47, will face trial on March 3 on charges including fraud, conspiracy and assisting a criminal syndicate. His lawyer, Thomas M. Baker, declined to comment on the charges, but said Mr. Iknadosian maintained his innocence. No one answered the telephone at Mr. Iknadosian’s home in Glendale, Ariz.
    A native of Egypt who spent much of his life in California, Mr. Iknadosian moved his gun-selling operation to Arizona in 2004, because the gun laws were more lenient, prosecutors said.
    (more)
  • jimrthy... Pieter ... 2011/06/14 18:45:29
    jimrthy BN-0
    This is about the ATF deliberately clearing people who failed background checks and telling the gun dealers to go ahead and sell to buyers they didn't trust.

    Totally different than an individual doing it.

    Just FYI, that 90% number is bogus. http://www.factcheck.org/poli... points out how difficult to come up with a meaningful number there. I don't make any claims about the site's accuracy or political bias--this is the first time I remember running across it. This particular article seems to have bent over backward to be unbiased, though.
  • Pieter ... jimrthy... 2011/06/15 07:36:40
    Pieter Joubert
    Nothing changes the fact that Drug cartels get their fire power from tthe USA and the majority of drug customers who fund the drug industry is US citizens who buy and use the drugs.

    No users = no market = no money = no drug cartels = no gun sales to cartels = job losses in USA
  • jimrthy... Pieter ... 2011/06/20 15:33:21
    jimrthy BN-0
    The drug cartels are not really interested in the wimpy little guns available to US civilians. The vast majority of their arms are military-grade. If they come from the US, they're coming from either military bases, police stations, or the manufacturers.

    I suspect you're correct about the drug funding, but I won't argue without knowing more about drug use around the globe. I suppose we could always invoke the death penalty like China, or impose *really* harsh restrictions like in various Muslim countries.

    But we already have the highest prison population on the planet (both per capita and in absolute terms) because of our drug war.

    Your equation is absolutely wrong, BTW. The drug war creates false restrictions on the supply. The demand has remained pretty much the same (though it's shifted toward "harder" drugs, exactly the same way as Prohibition I shifted America's tastes from wine and beer to hard liquor). It's driven prices up.

    Remove the supply restriction. Prices plummet. Drug cartels go away. It might result in US job losses, but it absolutely would reduce prison populations and the senseless deaths of innocents.

    The demand will not go away.
  • Pieter ... jimrthy... 2011/06/21 15:55:44
    Pieter Joubert
    +1
    Decriminalize drugs, it will dramatically reduce the prison population.
    Drug use will not increase or decrease.

    Stop arming rebel armies around the world and US arms will not end up in the hands of drug dealers and terrorists to be used against US personell
  • jimrthy... Pieter ... 2011/06/22 15:22:19
    jimrthy BN-0
    Yes!
  • RobertRowe 2011/06/12 07:30:38
    No, I didn't know. Thanks for clueing me in.
    RobertRowe
    +1
    no surprise though since the cia armed al queada, the drug lords of central and south america.
  • Don Leuty 2011/06/12 05:49:13
    Yes, I knew about it.
    Don Leuty
    It's a little like throwing gasoline on a fire to put it out and spending yourself rich. For such a feller, he seems to have surrounded himself with absolute zeros.
  • TheRichZone 2011/06/12 05:17:30
    Yes, I knew about it.
    TheRichZone
    +2
    Last I heard Obama and the DOJ were refusing cooperate with the members of the House


    the internet is a great tool to get real time news and information from so I wonder why Obama is looking into regulate how news is reported online???
  • Civic M... TheRich... 2011/06/12 22:16:06
    Civic Minded
    +1
    Control!
  • TheRich... Civic M... 2011/06/12 22:30:04
    TheRichZone
    +1
    I'm sure Obama will say he's doing it for Freedom of Speech reasons so you really don't have anything to worry about as long as you don't use the wrong kind of speech.
  • Richard Sievert 2011/06/12 04:08:25
    Yes, I knew about it.
    Richard Sievert
    Yes they want to put you all in prisons so they can make more guns to kill the world!
  • 2012 rick 2011/06/12 02:56:44
  • Cheetah 2011/06/12 02:54:44
    Yes, I knew about it.
    Cheetah
    +2
    And it happened on Obama's watch.
  • Donnie 2011/06/12 02:07:44
  • Flea 2011/06/12 01:22:19
    No, I didn't know. Thanks for clueing me in.
    Flea
    ... but nothing the government does surprises me anymore. They is gonna do what they want to do.
  • jimrthy... Flea 2011/06/14 18:31:21
    jimrthy BN-0
    Well, as long as we let them get away with it.
  • clasact 2011/06/12 01:20:50
    Yes, I knew about it.
    clasact
    +1
    we our govenmernt over the year has also sent wepons to the same people we ended up fighting in Nam ,Loas,and Cambodia..Also the rebels in Afganistan and in South Africa.WE even at one time were the ones armming Bin Laden and jis buch so why is this such a surprise to you all
  • Rore73 2011/06/12 00:51:24
    Yes, I knew about it.
    Rore73
    Do da name Eric Holder mean anythang to you Mr. Obama?

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