Trayvon Martin's Killing Is Now A Murder Case. Should "Stand Your Ground" Laws Be Repealed ?

by Che Guevara - Hero Posted 2012/04/12 03:34:16

Related Topics: Trayvon Martin, Law Enforcement, Police, Murder, George Zimmerman, Guns, Family, Bridge, Crime, Racism, Firearm, Rights, Orlando, Peterson, Nyt

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66 votes
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	YES	49 votes	74%
	NO	17 votes	26%

Trayvon Martin's Killing Is Now A Murder Case. Should The "Stand Your Ground" Law Be Repealed ?

Stand Your Ground laws should be repealed because:

1. They require “law enforcement officials to prove that a suspect did not act in self-defense. [NYT] ” This burden of proof is a bridge too far on the presumption of innocence continuum. You cannot prove motive with confidence on the basis of circumstantial evidence when the other guy happens to be dead.

2. They protect shooters from civil suits, where the burden of proof for a civil judgement is lower. This means that when the state doesn’t charge no civil options remain to the victim’s family.

3. Many of the victims have been unarmed (12 of 13 studied in a recent Orlando Sentinel investigation).

4. Police chiefs do not understand the laws, and thus abrogate their duty to investigate fully in the first crucial hours following an incident, allowing vital forensic evidence to be destroyed.

5. Clueless gun owners, like George Zimmerman, who are inclined to ignore or misunderstand policies and regulations regarding use of a firearm, will falsely believe they have rights that they do not, in reality, possess.

6. They encourage vigilantism by codifying a set of assumptions that magnifies the real degree of threat posed by “suspicious” persons possessed of unknown intent. This effect is exacerbated by racial profiling, as well as outright racism, and further fueled by the now well-known “hoodie effect.”

7. They represent an attempt to “normalize” the use of firearms in situations where the standard of proof is that of “feeling threatened,” a standard that is not codified with objective criteria under the laws.

8. People under investigation for having committed a crime involving the use of a firearm already possess a presumption of innocence.

9. They serve to reinforce the brutality of American society, driven by a paranoid sense of threat experienced by some armed civilians.

10. They represent a license to kill. And, as I have said before, it’s not gun nuts who bother me, it’s nuts with guns. I agree with Chattanooga, Tennessee gun enthusiast Sally Peterson who told WRCB TV,"You can't approach a person and draw your gun. I just think there are too many wannabe cops.”

+12

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aneed2know 2012/04/12 05:38:39

YES

+9
ASAP, there is no need for this law, there are laws on the books dealing with self defense.
>> See Replies

More polls by Che Guevara - Hero

Lady Whitewolf 2012/04/12 09:44:20

NO

+3
NO

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Roblem BN-0 2012/04/12 08:47:36

YES

+7
It's unnecessary and takes things too far. Self defense could have been altered slightly to achieve the goal. When you kill someone there should be questions and an investigation.

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findthelight2000 2012/04/12 08:23:22

YES

+5
Absolutely!

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Nomad58 2012/04/12 06:33:57

NO

+5
The reason it is a 2nd Degree murder case is because the Special Prosecutor judged the act was not carried out under the "Stand Your Ground" Law (as per Judicial review before the Media tried to start a Race War).

Zimmerman will now go before a jury to answer to the charges and try to prove his case.

That is the way our Justice system works. Not because some Liberal anti-Gun reposts an article he saw on Salon (now there's a reliable news source).

So think about the idiocy of each one of these points and then have a good laugh.

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findthe... to Nomad58 2012/04/12 08:26:27

+6
We'll just think about the idiocy of the your comment and have a good laugh.

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Nomad58 to findthe... 2012/04/12 13:33:28

I presented the facts while Salon wrote fantasy.
Then again, Progressives do have a problem separating the two.

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findthe... to Nomad58 2012/04/12 14:23:20

+4
Project much?

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Nomad58 to findthe... 2012/04/12 15:10:04 (edited)

52 yo Progressive w/ some College who still believes in Progressivism.

What was it Winston Churchill said about your type?

I think Albert Einstein also have a saying relating to Progressives and their Socialist beliefs. Something about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. ~ Winston Churchill

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findthe... to Nomad58 2012/04/12 19:30:43 (edited)

+2
You conservatives mouth off about Socialism as if it were something bad. It isn't. You just confuse the word with bad, Authoritarian governments that used that good word to make them sound good - they weren't good, and they weren't Socialistic. However, you approve of an Authoritarian government for the USA, that promotes welfare for a handful of the population, slave labor and no assistance whatsoever for the rest, and racial profiling and vigilantism. That's a recipe for disaster!

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Nomad58 to findthe... 2012/04/12 20:29:47

Show me where Socialism has worked. Have you even traveled the World in the least and seen the effect of these programs you would have hoisted on your fellow citizens?

As for an Authoritarian Government, hell no! I want as little Government as possible. Welfare and charity is the realm of the family, neighborhood, and Church; not the Government. I may be a Conservative, yet I am of the Libertarian kind. I support my Country and its People. I will support my Government only if they deserve it. In my whole adult life they have not deserved my respect ~ Reagan was close but he grew the Government too much.

Define slave labor in America, because I have been on missions where real slavery exists so don't use your ignorance to deminish the angish of true slavery (especially sex slaves).

True racial profiling is rare ~ looking for a black suspect in a robbery is not profiling if the hold-up guy was Black. Vigilantism is against the law in this Nation, yet I did not see any complaints from you about the Black Panthers placing a $10,000 Dead or Alive bounty on Zimmerman

So once again, I maintain you are living in a fantasy world.

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Che Gue... to Nomad58 2012/04/12 21:28:53

+1
The US Military is the largest socialist organization in the country and most would say it works fairly well.

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Nomad58 to Che Gue... 2012/04/12 23:12:40

Never been in the military have you. It is not a Socialist organization although you obviously got that idea from Cenk Uygur article.

First let's break it down
1) Everyone gets government provided housing - No they don't the Government only has housing for a small percentage of the force. The remainder get an allowance which is inadequate for the local market.
2) Health care is usually farmed out to a hospital if it goes beyond simple medicine. This is covered through Tricare, an insurance Military member must pay out of their wages, also covers their dependents
3) Government clothing allowance IS approximately $480 dollars/yr. That is to maintain the initial uniform issue valued at $1680 dollars. The rest comes out of your basic pay.

And now you are claiming it works well? There is tons of waste in the DoD and with the military contracts they let. The Military Pay office is the most hated entity in the Services because of the number of errors they make in members pay.

Failed programs are continued just because they have a Senator or Congressman pushing for their District. The Army shipped all its field artillery into theater with their ammo three days behind (that's backwards btw ~ you have to stage ammo) during Desert Storm and tried to take the Marines ammo even though the Marin...

Never been in the military have you. It is not a Socialist organization although you obviously got that idea from Cenk Uygur article.

First let's break it down
1) Everyone gets government provided housing - No they don't the Government only has housing for a small percentage of the force. The remainder get an allowance which is inadequate for the local market.
2) Health care is usually farmed out to a hospital if it goes beyond simple medicine. This is covered through Tricare, an insurance Military member must pay out of their wages, also covers their dependents
3) Government clothing allowance IS approximately $480 dollars/yr. That is to maintain the initial uniform issue valued at $1680 dollars. The rest comes out of your basic pay.

And now you are claiming it works well? There is tons of waste in the DoD and with the military contracts they let. The Military Pay office is the most hated entity in the Services because of the number of errors they make in members pay.

Failed programs are continued just because they have a Senator or Congressman pushing for their District. The Army shipped all its field artillery into theater with their ammo three days behind (that's backwards btw ~ you have to stage ammo) during Desert Storm and tried to take the Marines ammo even though the Marines were moving up first. (Actually those parts sounds Socialist)

As for it being Socialist isn't the Socialisms creed "Society is an omnipotent and omniscient being, free from human frailty and weakness." well that sure as hell isn't the thinking of the military.

If you don't perform well you aren't allowed to re-enlist. If you are not superior you are not going to advance. We don't give two craps what your color is because we are all green. The Nation is what we protect, the Society can fend for itself and the Government we support as long as it deserves it. That is why the oath of all Officers is to the Constitution ~ not the President.

Now I am a Retired Military Officer who became a Businessman with Libertarian Conservative views or as Pelosi calls us "a Terrorist"
(more)

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Che Gue... to Nomad58 2012/04/13 00:45:25

+1
NoNads58 said:
"Show me where Socialism has worked"

I showed you an example where Socialism works.

All your examples prove how clueless you are about Military Life. I'm sure the other Vets on SH will get a kick out of your comments.

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Nomad58 to Che Gue... 2012/04/13 02:05:56

You think those examples are proof of a well-functioning system? Fantasy has nothing on Progressives. Twenty-two yrs active duty with plenty of instances of watching the Government machine malfunction. Also, you forget unlike the Nazi's or Russian's the military units function as individuals making them very choatic & dangerous on the battlefield. We have been working that way since WWII ~ really messed with the Germans. That's why that "Army of One" slogan never worked out.

So makes your little quips all you wish & worship a Marxist mass murderer, yet you will still be an adult passing middle-age in arrested development. And Che? Come on not exactly a study in courage.

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findthe... to Nomad58 2012/04/13 01:10:40

+1
In Denmark, Finland, and France, socialism has worked, and worked well. BTW: There is not one single country in the free world (including the USA), that does not have some socialistic programs in place.

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addie to Nomad58 2012/04/15 09:23:59

A kibbutz is a socialist society, kind of and they work, very well.

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Nomad58 to addie 2012/04/15 14:07:31

True, yet they are not a Government. I will grant from my own tribal heritage that small communities can work well on socialist tenents;however, once they are scale up they are doomed to failure.

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Che Gue... to Nomad58 2012/04/12 21:27:43

+1
You haven't presented any FACTS, only conjecture.

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Nomad58 to Che Gue... 2012/04/13 03:12:58

What I initially reported is being reported on every station and the WSJ.
If you are unable to listen to Media or read a newspaper online that is your failing ~ not mine.

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CAPISCE to Nomad58 2012/04/12 14:40:10

Zimmerman Attorney will use "Stand your Ground" and rightly so----this 2nd degree charge is nothing but a legal maneuver to try to force Zimmerman to plea to a lessor charge, I think it's going to blow up in the prosecution face

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Nomad58 to CAPISCE 2012/04/12 15:15:23 (edited)

+1
That's what I was saying to aneed2know a couple of posts down with the links and Florida Law posted. Also by charging 2nd degree they may have went too far ~ manslaughter they may have convinced a jury, but 2nd Degree I doubt it. Plus FL juries are stupid as hell. Well, stupid is not the right word, lazy is more appropriate ~ it's like they just take the easy way of not convicting anyone.

http://www.sodahead.com/unite...

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Che Gue... to Nomad58 2012/04/12 21:32:37

+1
NoNads58 said:
"Florida juries are stupid as hell"

So you must have been on a Florida Jury.

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Nomad58 to Che Gue... 2012/04/13 00:10:02

Finish the sentence, knucklehead.
And no I don't do jury duty because I am unable to sit for an extended time (100% disabled Vet)

Richard Paey: http://reason.org/news/show/f...
Fla. Court Snuffs Out $79.2M Award in Tobacco Case http://www.wctv.tv/home/headl... Juror Dismissed for 'Friending' Defendant on Facebook
Florida Juror Dismissed for 'Friending' Defendant on Facebook
http://www.foxnews.com/us/201...
And that's just the first page of Google:

As for nads, what were you doing while I was in combat against Al Qaeda?
Probably, sitting in your easy chair bitchin about how unfair America is, right?

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Che Gue... to Nomad58 2012/04/13 00:50:12

I see, Another Welfare Queen sitting around waiting for a check and whining about Socialism ? I love it.

BTW- You wouldn't have much of a chance to fight Al Qaeda working in the Mess Hall. lol

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Nomad58 to Che Gue... 2012/04/13 02:23:12

+1
No pampered One, I was an Officer out in the field with the Marines (look up NGLO) with special certification in Combat Arms and Sniper Training. I stayed there until a helo repelling accident slowed me down (broke back) and another incident took out my right foot.

I retired and started a company designing Weapons Systems for the US Navy & USMC. Got it up to six sites and sold it to Raytheon a couple of years ago. I live off the interest dividends on my investments and have a load in retirement savings.

So I am giving my disability checks to Wounded Warrior Project and my Retirement Check to the VSO. It's not like I need it for anything, plus I get to write the whole $60K off on my taxes.

That's right I am one of those that worked my way into the 1%.

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Che Gue... to Nomad58 2012/05/02 05:37:46
Nomad58 to Che Gue... 2012/05/03 17:31:54

Says the man who thinks Che was a hero.
Understandable I guess from someone who never grew up.

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Che Gue... to Nomad58 2012/05/03 19:01:01

Didn't the Marines train the poor bastards that attacked Cuba at the Bay of Pigs and got slaughtered ? lol

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Nomad58 to Che Gue... 2012/05/03 20:22:13

Nope, CIA. If the Marines had trained them instead of Spooks and that lousy sailor JFK had not pulled out air-support Cuba would still be a great place to visit.

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CAPISCE to Che Gue... 2012/05/02 03:00:17

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Che Gue... to CAPISCE 2012/05/02 05:39:37

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CAPISCE to Che Gue... 2012/05/02 12:12:17

They need to protect themselves against the photo I posted. Good for them

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findthe... to CAPISCE 2012/04/12 19:33:57
Che Gue... to CAPISCE 2012/04/12 21:29:52

+1
If Zimmerman is innocent why would he plead guilty to a lesser charge ? lol

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Nomad58 to Che Gue... 2012/04/13 00:12:41

+1
I see your problem ~ you have limited reading comprehension skills

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Che Gue... to Nomad58 2012/04/13 00:51:13

+2
What's wrong ? Angry because you spent your government check already ? lol

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Nomad58 to Che Gue... 2012/04/13 02:28:16 (edited)

Don't need checks ~ I just give them away.
I was amazed that you couldn't read a simple post and jumped to the conclusion that Zimmerman would plead guilty to a lesser charge.

Even if he weren't guilty, did you ever think he may just want the lynch mob off his back? Of course you didn't, you already have your pitchfork & torches ready to go.

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CAPISCE to Che Gue... 2012/05/02 03:02:21

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Che Gue... to CAPISCE 2012/05/02 05:40:53

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CAPISCE to Che Gue... 2012/05/02 03:01:19

That happens all the time

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