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Should the U.S. Have Universal Healthcare?

(▪‿▪)DoctorWhoGuru(▪‿▪) 2012/06/21 05:34:06
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A new study has calculated that more than 26,000 Americans died prematurely in 2010 as a direct result of not having health insurance. The study, published on Wednesday by health care advocacy group Families USA, has raised old questions about whether health insurance coverage has any bearing on a person's odds of living longer.

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  • Informed Voter 2012/06/21 23:28:33
    No
    Informed Voter
    +11
    And the argument was made quite plain...by a Doctor who should know, Dr. C.L. Gray, MD.
    Because it's more than just "healthcare" that's at stake.

    The Battle for America’s Soul
    By C.L. Gray, MD

    A review and commentary


    If one were tempted to write a book that accurately captured the tug of war our country is currently undergoing, they would find that someone has already done their work for them.

    Framed in the current healthcare debate, Dr. Gray pits the great thinkers against each other in a duel of world views that is playing out in our society even today. From Hippocrates and Plato to Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Friedrich Nietzsche, all the important titans of philosophical thought are represented. And at the very heart of their debate lay a central issue; who has the power to make decisions that affect our lives, the individual or the state?

    By defining what shaped Hippocrates’ and Plato’s world views in the field of healthcare, Dr. Gray lays out the case that this is a very old argument taken into the present day and that ultimate authority for our world view depends greatly on the our foundation of truth. Whether it be sacred or secular in origin, both make their cases clear; where Hippocratic-thinkers place a premium on human life—at both ends of the life cycle—the P...

















    And the argument was made quite plain...by a Doctor who should know, Dr. C.L. Gray, MD.
    Because it's more than just "healthcare" that's at stake.

    The Battle for America’s Soul
    By C.L. Gray, MD

    A review and commentary


    If one were tempted to write a book that accurately captured the tug of war our country is currently undergoing, they would find that someone has already done their work for them.

    Framed in the current healthcare debate, Dr. Gray pits the great thinkers against each other in a duel of world views that is playing out in our society even today. From Hippocrates and Plato to Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Friedrich Nietzsche, all the important titans of philosophical thought are represented. And at the very heart of their debate lay a central issue; who has the power to make decisions that affect our lives, the individual or the state?

    By defining what shaped Hippocrates’ and Plato’s world views in the field of healthcare, Dr. Gray lays out the case that this is a very old argument taken into the present day and that ultimate authority for our world view depends greatly on the our foundation of truth. Whether it be sacred or secular in origin, both make their cases clear; where Hippocratic-thinkers place a premium on human life—at both ends of the life cycle—the Platonian-thinkers consider life at the earliest and latest stages as a burden to the state. To make this an easier decision for the state, the state simply does away with the concept of God. This is a recurring theme throughout the book.

    Each chapter’s presentation is thoroughly researched, painstakingly discussed and individually end-noted, yet with straightforward writing that makes for an enjoyable yet thought-provoking read.

    Before you take up the banner on behalf of a particular side, it may be instructive to understand the genesis from which world view you are arguing, Hippocrates or Plato?

    The world view of “Hippocrates – 1) Accepted the concept of a fixed Truth, 2) believed in the intrinsic value of human life, 3) thought medicine should serve (the) well being of the patient, 4) rejected infanticide and euthanasia, 5) the common man could appeal to a higher moral code.

    The world view of “Plato – 1) Rejected the concept of a fixed Truth, 2) believed the philosopher king should determine the value of human life, 3) thought medicine should serve (the) welfare of the State, 4) accepted infanticide and euthanasia, 5) The State could do as it wished.”

    These arguments continue to play out on the societal stage today. The question is, which one stands more closely with the founding principles of freedom and which one stands for the omniscience of the State?

    “Government benevolence under socialism sounds so noble when first introduced. The ruling elite use sweet words of compassion to win the public’s trust, even as they secure power for themselves. However, contempt for the common man lies underneath this apparent concern.”

    C. L. Gray, MD, The Battle for America’s Soul, (Hickory, NC: Eventide Publishing, 2011), p. 63.
    C. L. Gray, MD, The Battle for America’s Soul, (Hickory, NC: Eventide Publishing, 2011), p. 156.


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Opinions

  • TheTailor Teddy 2012/06/22 12:41:10
    TheTailor
    Then why be allowed to go there? See a DOCTOR in his OFFICE.
  • Teddy TheTailor 2012/06/22 22:30:02
    Teddy
    That is the pupose of the health care bill. You will have a doctor. I have insurance and get physicals every 6 months, keeps me healthy.
  • TheTailor Teddy 2012/06/23 00:27:44
    TheTailor
    We don't need a healthcare bill to do that, we've done it all along without a bill being forced upon us.
  • Teddy TheTailor 2012/06/29 21:08:14
    Teddy
    How? By going to the emrgency room and dependig on taxpayers to pick up the bill. This is cheaper.
  • TheTailor Teddy 2012/06/29 22:53:42
    TheTailor
    Change the law that allows imbeciles to take their kids to the emergency room for the sniffles, it's called triage. Emergency rooms are for emergencies, if they don't have level 3 trauma, send them to the doctor's office, or a minor emergency clinic. Oh, and let them pay.
  • Informed Voter 2012/06/21 23:28:33
    No
    Informed Voter
    +11
    And the argument was made quite plain...by a Doctor who should know, Dr. C.L. Gray, MD.
    Because it's more than just "healthcare" that's at stake.

    The Battle for America’s Soul
    By C.L. Gray, MD

    A review and commentary


    If one were tempted to write a book that accurately captured the tug of war our country is currently undergoing, they would find that someone has already done their work for them.

    Framed in the current healthcare debate, Dr. Gray pits the great thinkers against each other in a duel of world views that is playing out in our society even today. From Hippocrates and Plato to Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Friedrich Nietzsche, all the important titans of philosophical thought are represented. And at the very heart of their debate lay a central issue; who has the power to make decisions that affect our lives, the individual or the state?

    By defining what shaped Hippocrates’ and Plato’s world views in the field of healthcare, Dr. Gray lays out the case that this is a very old argument taken into the present day and that ultimate authority for our world view depends greatly on the our foundation of truth. Whether it be sacred or secular in origin, both make their cases clear; where Hippocratic-thinkers place a premium on human life—at both ends of the life cycle—the P...

















    And the argument was made quite plain...by a Doctor who should know, Dr. C.L. Gray, MD.
    Because it's more than just "healthcare" that's at stake.

    The Battle for America’s Soul
    By C.L. Gray, MD

    A review and commentary


    If one were tempted to write a book that accurately captured the tug of war our country is currently undergoing, they would find that someone has already done their work for them.

    Framed in the current healthcare debate, Dr. Gray pits the great thinkers against each other in a duel of world views that is playing out in our society even today. From Hippocrates and Plato to Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Friedrich Nietzsche, all the important titans of philosophical thought are represented. And at the very heart of their debate lay a central issue; who has the power to make decisions that affect our lives, the individual or the state?

    By defining what shaped Hippocrates’ and Plato’s world views in the field of healthcare, Dr. Gray lays out the case that this is a very old argument taken into the present day and that ultimate authority for our world view depends greatly on the our foundation of truth. Whether it be sacred or secular in origin, both make their cases clear; where Hippocratic-thinkers place a premium on human life—at both ends of the life cycle—the Platonian-thinkers consider life at the earliest and latest stages as a burden to the state. To make this an easier decision for the state, the state simply does away with the concept of God. This is a recurring theme throughout the book.

    Each chapter’s presentation is thoroughly researched, painstakingly discussed and individually end-noted, yet with straightforward writing that makes for an enjoyable yet thought-provoking read.

    Before you take up the banner on behalf of a particular side, it may be instructive to understand the genesis from which world view you are arguing, Hippocrates or Plato?

    The world view of “Hippocrates – 1) Accepted the concept of a fixed Truth, 2) believed in the intrinsic value of human life, 3) thought medicine should serve (the) well being of the patient, 4) rejected infanticide and euthanasia, 5) the common man could appeal to a higher moral code.

    The world view of “Plato – 1) Rejected the concept of a fixed Truth, 2) believed the philosopher king should determine the value of human life, 3) thought medicine should serve (the) welfare of the State, 4) accepted infanticide and euthanasia, 5) The State could do as it wished.”

    These arguments continue to play out on the societal stage today. The question is, which one stands more closely with the founding principles of freedom and which one stands for the omniscience of the State?

    “Government benevolence under socialism sounds so noble when first introduced. The ruling elite use sweet words of compassion to win the public’s trust, even as they secure power for themselves. However, contempt for the common man lies underneath this apparent concern.”

    C. L. Gray, MD, The Battle for America’s Soul, (Hickory, NC: Eventide Publishing, 2011), p. 63.
    C. L. Gray, MD, The Battle for America’s Soul, (Hickory, NC: Eventide Publishing, 2011), p. 156.


    battle for America s soul
    (more)
  • rootbeer29 Informe... 2012/06/22 05:47:24
    rootbeer29
    +3
    Thank you!
  • Mrs. ma... Informe... 2012/06/22 23:41:47
    Mrs. maggot
    +1
    Absolutely.

    Bravo.
  • cm 2012/06/21 22:11:54
    No
    cm
    +8
    It's not needed if the system were cleaned up but Obama does not have the stomach for that as he should start with Tort Reform.
  • JCD aka... cm 2012/06/21 22:49:02
    JCD aka "biz"
    +1
    How much would tort reform save, as a percentage of total health costs in America?
  • cm JCD aka... 2012/06/21 22:54:09
    cm
    +2
    Well the CBO says it would save 54 billion
  • JCD aka... cm 2012/06/21 23:26:24
    JCD aka "biz"
    +1
    Over the next decade. That's 0.5% of your total health expenditures.
  • cm JCD aka... 2012/06/21 23:31:46
    cm
    +2
    Your math is incorrect but that's okay. It is projected by the CBO the savings of Tort Reform would result in increased employees generating 13 billion in taxes. there's a lot of collateral benefits for tort reform.
  • JCD aka... cm 2012/06/22 14:52:21
    JCD aka "biz"
    It's not my math. I googled "CBO tort reform", you can do it too.
  • Samantha 2012/06/21 21:27:50
    Yes
    Samantha
    +3
    Universal health care must be implemented in the United States, and I have no doubt it will eventually happen.
  • JCD aka... Samantha 2012/06/21 22:49:26
    JCD aka "biz"
    Exactly.
  • TheTailor Samantha 2012/06/22 12:44:53
    TheTailor
    What if I don't want it?
  • MarinerFH 2012/06/21 20:30:06
    No
    MarinerFH
    +9
    But there should be some changes. Like Tort Reform, Portability of Coverage, Nationwide Insurance Competition, etc.
  • ETpro 2012/06/21 20:21:34
    Yes
    ETpro
    +3
    We are going to at some point. The for-profit model is only sustainable if everyone is forced by a legal mandate to be covered. So long as the healthy can opt out, premiums will have to soar, because insurers will be left insuring only the dwindling pool of really sick people who can afford healthcare insurance despite its spiraling cost. The rest of the developed world already has a universal system. They all get better healthcare outcomes than the US, and insure all their citizens at roughly half the per-capita cost we pay to leave 50 million Americans without coverage.
  • TheTailor ETpro 2012/06/22 12:50:09
    TheTailor
    Canada's cost isn't "... half the per-capita cost we pay ...", and I doubt that's the case elsewhere. Canada also doesn't have a "universal" system, as patients often come to the US for treatment.
  • GeorgeAMartini 2012/06/21 20:14:16 (edited)
    No
    GeorgeAMartini
    +7
    130,000 British die yearly prematurely because their system deems them a waste of money. I'd rather go with the 26,000 figure. Its much easier to fix 26k than 130k.
  • fudge35 2012/06/21 19:56:08
    Yes
    fudge35
    +4
    This country is the only industrial country in the world that doesn't have a single payer system. Why you ask??? Because, we have a horse and buggy party that is still rooted in the 19th century, and bought off by the pharmaceuticals, and the health insurance companies!!!
  • TheTailor fudge35 2012/06/22 12:55:18
    TheTailor
    We also have people that DON'T WANT IT, why aren't their wishes taken into account by self proclaimed "progressives"?
  • cynsity 2012/06/21 19:55:09
    No
    cynsity
    +6
    NO one died from NOT having health insurance. If having health insurance prevented death everyone would have it no matter what teh cost.

    26,000 premature deaths includes all accidents which health insurace would not prevent, it includes all suicides and homocides which health insurance could not prevent and it includes those who died because their life style made them a high risk (aka drug use and risky behavior) and health insurance would not prevent those.

    The actual number of people who died because thyy failed to seek medical help do to lack of insurance to help pay for it is so small it can not even be properly calculated.

    This is nothing more than a spin on statistics. A pre mature death is anyone in teh "working age" bracket of 15-64 and 100,000 people in those brackets will die in car accidents at least

    Of those who died from teh "leading causes" which can be helped by medical treatment (Obesity, smoking and high blood pressure) while those things are treatable with medician they are also a matter of LIFE STYLE and they are CHOICES people make for themselves so health insurace is not a promise they will live longer

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/...
  • JCD aka... cynsity 2012/06/21 22:53:05
    JCD aka "biz"
    Are you trying to say that America is the only country where premature deaths are caused by "suicides, homicides, drug use, smoking, car accidents" etc.?
  • cynsity JCD aka... 2012/06/22 03:11:40
    cynsity
    No but I am saying having or not having insurance is not what people die of. Hell I have insurance and i am covered by the VA I can seek treatment for anything with very little outof pocket. Just cause I have it though doesn't mean I wont get hit by a bus next week and die. And premature deaths still occure in record numbers in all teh countries with govet health care and in those nations tehy also have higher rates of people dying WAITING for treatment than in teh USA

    There is no reason except CHOICE for people to NOT seek medical care. All medical facilities are mandated to treat regardless of ability to pay. And yes that means that other people pick up the cost however taht is NO different from what universal care will mandate OTHER PEOPLE picking up the cost.

    Like I said I have insurance I also have a automune desease which is covered by my insurace so I am being treated but I could still CHOOSE to not follow my doctors advice and choose notto take the meds like I am supposed to and if I do that and I die then will you say that having health insurance is a leading cause of death.
  • JCD aka... cynsity 2012/06/22 14:53:03
    JCD aka "biz"
    Thank you.
  • michael 2012/06/21 19:16:38
    Yes
    michael
    +1
    While I think the idea of national healthcare is a good idea I think given our federal budget deficit is more important than healthcare at this point in time. I mean I still don't understand how on earth Obama wants everyone to pay for Obamacare other than massive tax increases and it is beyond me how you can increase taxes on people whom are already deeply endebted to the US government. For example, I am deeply endebted to the US gove. over my vast and growing student loan debts.
  • JCD aka... michael 2012/06/21 22:54:58
    JCD aka "biz"
    Every single Western country which has national healthcare spends a lot less on health care that your country.
    Universal health care is not only a "good idea", it is also far less expensive.
  • michael JCD aka... 2012/06/22 19:20:55
    michael
    +1
    I am SO glad you said "Every single Western country which has national healthcare ".....I should also point out to you that every single Western country is having major debt problems these days. I mean look what is going on in Greece, Spain,and Italy these days. Even France has raised the retirement age as well as simply cutting social spending. But let's focus ONLY on the USA.....okay???? Next year, there will be a major tax increase even as the USA (when the Bush era tax cuts end) job market will still have unemployment above 8% , according to the Fed. Did you notice yesterday that Moody's lowered the credit rating for 5 of the largest banks in the USA?? And that action by Moody's is almost year after it lowered the entire credit rating of the US goverment ( the fist time since 1917) ??? Of course, the impact of this actions makes it harder on businesses to get loans to exspand their business hence it adds problems. Also , I should also remind that more people are filing for personal bankrupcy this year than last year. I know personally, having healthcare is a nice thing BUT it doesn't help me one bit......why, you ask....becuase I don't have any health crises in my life but I do have a student loan re-payment crises which is getting worse since I have been unemployed now for almost 2 years!
  • JCD aka... michael 2012/06/23 13:34:14
    JCD aka "biz"
    We spend less on health care, shouldn't you also try to spend less too?
    And I agree that the cost of college education is outrageous in America. I read once that Obama has taken action to help people with huge student loan repayment debt. Is it true?
  • michael JCD aka... 2012/06/24 01:47:34
    michael
    it is not true--Obama has done very little to help. And given the very tough job market here and the vast debt carried by former college students----some carry more than $100,000 upon graducation and have no jobs! Personally, I am unemployed and homeless plus over $75,000 in student loan debts---that is the reason why oppose any and any tax increases---I am struggling paying these debts and I cannot afford any more costs!
  • aherbert 2012/06/21 19:06:53
  • TheTailor aherbert 2012/06/22 16:10:51
    TheTailor
    +1
    What if I don't want it?
  • aherbert TheTailor 2012/06/22 16:12:19
    aherbert
    Yeah will put your health bill on the rest of us ... just like car insurance Americans needs health insurance ... leap into the future it is the RIGHT thing to do!
  • TheTailor aherbert 2012/06/22 17:29:56
    TheTailor
    +1
    I don't have a health care bill to put on you. Car insurance is another issue entirely, and I'm not forced to buy it. The RIGHT thing to do is leave Americans to make their own decisions.
  • aherbert TheTailor 2012/06/22 17:34:21
    aherbert
    Yeah and wait until they are ill and go to the emergency room with their uninsured selves and those of us that are insured pay the cost ... yeah that is the ticket right?
  • TheTailor aherbert 2012/06/22 19:59:36
    TheTailor
    +1
    I'm not insured and when I need a doctor, I pay him. When I need a hospital, I pay the hospital. I'm no burden to you. When you say "they" I presume you mean illegals and the poor, "they" aren't going to be payng anything in any case.
  • aherbert TheTailor 2012/06/22 20:01:25
    aherbert
    Off with their heads? Is that your American way?
  • TheTailor aherbert 2012/06/22 20:03:35
    TheTailor
    How is that relevant? Did say that? No, I didn't, don't put words in my mouth.

    You don't pay my way, and you don't force a system on me I don't want.

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