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PUNDIT RIGHT: Should We Fire Teachers Who Won’t Say Pledge of Allegiance?

SodaHead News 2010/07/02 14:00:00
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On the July 1 edition of his program on Fox News, Glenn Beck wonders if it’s time to think about firing teachers who won’t recite the Pledge of Allegiance.



Should We Fire Teachers Who Won’t Say Pledge of Allegiance?
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  • texasred 2010/07/03 15:28:25
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    texasred
    +20
    Yes. It's past time for our children to be taught patriotism and what it means to be fortunate enough to be born an American citizen. And if our teachers are so damn liberal they don't understand or care, they don't need to be teaching our children.

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  • Teacher_Veteran 2011/10/19 20:06:41
    No, good teachers are hard enough to find.
    Teacher_Veteran
    I refuse to say the pledge. So fire me. I'm a teacher, and a damn good one by any measure. I take kids to national levels in science and social studies competitions, my proficiency rates for state mandated tests are in the high 90s (much higher than the state average of around 50%), my middle school writing students regularly get published in literary journals, and my students are respectful citizens who contribute to the community (our latest project is one in which we are making audio books to give to local nursing homes). On top of that, I am a disabled Iraqi veteran who spent ten years in the army before being injured in Iraq. I have served in Kosovo, Germany, Kuwait, and Iraq, not to mention various humanitarian missions in the US. I was willing to give up some of my rights to serve my country faithfully. And after that service, I recognize the value of not only standing up for what I believe in, but also being willing to lay down my life and my livelihood for that belief.

    And if there is one thing I believe in, it is the power to choose my path. I am no longer a soldier. I am no longer bound by the choices I made to give up freedoms to serve my country. I refuse to pledge my allegiance to either an inanimate object or a country that values reactionary measures...



    I refuse to say the pledge. So fire me. I'm a teacher, and a damn good one by any measure. I take kids to national levels in science and social studies competitions, my proficiency rates for state mandated tests are in the high 90s (much higher than the state average of around 50%), my middle school writing students regularly get published in literary journals, and my students are respectful citizens who contribute to the community (our latest project is one in which we are making audio books to give to local nursing homes). On top of that, I am a disabled Iraqi veteran who spent ten years in the army before being injured in Iraq. I have served in Kosovo, Germany, Kuwait, and Iraq, not to mention various humanitarian missions in the US. I was willing to give up some of my rights to serve my country faithfully. And after that service, I recognize the value of not only standing up for what I believe in, but also being willing to lay down my life and my livelihood for that belief.

    And if there is one thing I believe in, it is the power to choose my path. I am no longer a soldier. I am no longer bound by the choices I made to give up freedoms to serve my country. I refuse to pledge my allegiance to either an inanimate object or a country that values reactionary measures over proactive solutions.

    So fire me. I will work somewhere else where I am not required, every morning, to recite an oath of allegiance to principles I do not value.

    Fire me. But I warn you: in doing so, you will lose the best of the best.
    (more)
  • ian30961360 2011/07/06 21:19:33
    No, good teachers are hard enough to find.
    ian30961360
    +1
    I am a teacher. Next year, I will not recite the pledge because of my religious beliefs. Before you question my patriotism, you should know that I retired from the Army after 20 years. Both of my sons currently serve in the Air Force. My wife, brother, sister-in-law, father, and father-in-law all served in the armed forces. I don't need to prove my patriotism anymore. I won't say the pledge because I don't believe in any god. I also won't say the pledge because I've already promised to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. That seems to imply that I have a pretty strong allegiance to my country already. The constitution also says there should be no religious test for holding public office - I won't say the pledge and you can't fire me from my public office because of that refusal.
  • Taken' Fire for Truth 2010/07/13 20:16:38
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    Taken' Fire for Truth
    Im all for that
  • Beer30 2010/07/10 19:24:09
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    Beer30
    Isn't there a State or Federal directive obligating teachers to recite the Pledge?
    Or is it just a 'schoolhouse tradition' passed down from one school district to the next?

    The content of the Pledge is immaterial. Failure of any instructor to comply with a direct order from his superiors is insubordination.
  • cowboy 2010/07/08 21:51:31
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    cowboy
    +2
    Every one of them should be fired!
  • Lynn 2010/07/08 06:01:57
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    Lynn
    well, maybe just the ones that refuse to let kids recite it if tey choose to.
  • CoonOkie 2010/07/07 23:37:19
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    CoonOkie
    +1
    Yes we should. We need to bring back the way things were done in the 50's and at least 60's. I was taught about the American Revolution and why we fought it. The Civil War and the War of 1812, Spanish American War, lots of other wars and the Trail of Tears. I was taught about the Louisiana Purchase and what it meant. World Wars we fought, and I just don't thing that those thoughts are being taught to our children and the patriotism that the people of this country had and what we should have. Soldiers are the only one's who are young really understand patriotism these days and that is a shame. We are to blame for letting the liberals have to much of their way and telling them to go suck eggs so we could keep on teaching real values. I just do not see that in the school system these days.
  • none 2010/07/07 16:55:34
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    none
    +1
    Before being fired they need to have their asses kicked. It's time teachers went back to teaching kids HOW to think instead of WHAT to think.
  • Teacher... none 2011/10/19 20:12:48
    Teacher_Veteran
    +2
    So...how is reciting an oath of allegiance teaching them HOW to think? It seems like we are telling them what to think when we make them recite a pledge...oh, right. That's exactly what it is.

    Inciting violence towards public servants is an awful thing. But then, maybe no one taught you how to think.
  • none Teacher... 2011/11/20 17:01:56
    none
    There has been a down slide in the morals of America since the ending of prayers in school and now that the Pledge is not PC the slide will only get steeper.
  • Teacher... none 2012/02/01 14:53:03
    Teacher_Veteran
    A down slide? What is that? Aside from the fact that articulation is not a strength for you, to claim a causal relationship between morals in America and the ending of prayer in schools is simply a fallacy. When has prayer ended? My kids just prayed over their food yesterday. What you mean is teacher-led prayer. So that begs this question: which prayer should I use? I'm a Christian, but how dare I mandate that the kids of parents of different faiths bow their heads to my God. Or how about the reverse? If I was Muslim, would you want me to make your children recite "Allah Akbar?" Think. Teachers don't lead prayer for good reasons. And kids are very much allowed to pray in schools. Your premise is wrong and your logic is flawed.

    Next argument? Should we talk about how the pledge of allegiance is a mark of a fascist state?
  • none Teacher... 2012/02/01 17:31:31
    none
    I could have written downward but I thought an intelligent person would know what I meant but I guess an articulation nazi like you doesn't have the mental capacity to figure it out. We never had teacher led prayer when I was in school, a student led it and it could have been a student from any of numerous religions, no one complained about reading a psalm, the prayer, the pledge, or sometimes singing the national Anthem. Prayer ended in the early 60s if I'm not mistaken when some liberal busy body woman named Madalyn Murry complained about it.
    Take your own liberal BS and shove it.
  • Teacher... none 2012/02/09 01:07:19
  • Frank 2010/07/07 16:22:48
    No, good teachers are hard enough to find.
    Frank
    +1
    What the hell is wrong with this COuntry. Pledge of allegiance, ten commandments, constitution, without these we are nothing.
  • Magic Twanger 2010/07/07 16:22:20
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    Magic Twanger
    +4
    Yes, absolutely saying the Pledge of Allegiance is part of America. Communist teachers have got to go. Kick there asses to the curb, disband the union and let teachers deal on a plain, level field where teachers are graded on accomplishments and abilities.
  • Teacher... Magic T... 2012/02/09 01:09:56
    Teacher_Veteran
    Such as require students to learn the difference between there, their, and they're? Perhaps you should have done more paying attention in school and less meaningless oath taking.
  • disinter 2010/07/07 15:51:26
    No, good teachers are hard enough to find.
    disinter
    The original (1892) pledge of allegiance read:

    “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. America”

    Self proclaimed socialists managed to change “my flag” to “the flag of the U.S.” in 1942. Religious fascists then managed to add “under God” to their version of state worship in 1954. The result was:

    “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
  • LastRanger 2010/07/07 15:18:01
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    LastRanger
    +1
    Yep. (period)
  • keeper 2010/07/07 14:38:26
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    keeper
    +1
    I approve of that idea~~
  • Axl Snaks 2010/07/07 14:28:07
  • Greatbear100~support our vets 2010/07/07 14:27:19 (edited)
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    Greatbear100~support our vets
    +1
    Part of our educational system should be to promote good citizenship. There has been a failure to this as well as educate our children over the past 10 years. The history of our country should not be one of apology for who were are but an attempt to understand why the US responded to world events the way it did.
  • santa6642 2010/07/07 14:24:24
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    santa6642
    Over paid and under worked
  • Teacher... santa6642 2011/10/19 21:23:45
    Teacher_Veteran
    +3
    Really? Overpaid? I bring home less than 1500 dollars a month. When I was in the military, I made much more than I do now. It was also a much easier job. Unless I was in the field, we just stood around a lot. Now I work from 7:45 in the morning until 5:00 in the afternoon. Those are the hours I have kids. Then, I grade for three hours or so every night, except for the days that I attend school so that I can know more about how best to use the latest pedagogical research. I love my job, and I would not trade the work I do for anything. But please don't lambaste my profession because you are ignorant of the monumental amount of work I accomplish for a pittance.
  • wpsark_BN_0 2010/07/07 14:21:37
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    wpsark_BN_0
    Take your kids out of the classrooms that don't allow the Pledge of Allegiance..
  • ray 2010/07/07 14:14:41
    No, good teachers are hard enough to find.
    ray
    +2
    continued lowering of standards to achieve higher scores, failure rates of 50-60% in some schools. lowering requirements for grammar, english , mathematics, revisionist history , lowered standards for teachers ( competence @ eighth grade level in some states ) , over half of all college freshman requiring remedial classes. Yes, teachers need to be fired and replaced with competent individuals. It is ironic that Bill Gates can not teach Intro to computers to seventh grade students , yet a liberal arts c- teacher can. Then should such an individual claim " rights " to preclude teaching Nationalism, Pledge of Allegiance, or American values is ridiculous.
  • LastRanger ray 2010/07/07 15:29:55
    LastRanger
    I noted the phrase “(competence @ eighth grade level in some states)’ and it brought to mind a question I often ask myself when I hear similar statements.

    If a student is required to read at a sixth grade level to graduate from high school (a requirement in California), then at what is a sixth grader required to read? Third grade? And then what is the third grader required? And, so on.
    If so, then by extension, a student is only required to read at a third grade level to graduate.

    Actually somewhere along the line the level is 0 (zero). And that seems to be the case.
    It makes no sense at all.

    Just asking – think about it.
    Analyst, Ph.D.
  • ray LastRanger 2010/07/07 16:22:03
    ray
    Your last sentence is correct. I agree it makes no sense. I have known employers who upon interviewing applicants called the school to question the validity of an applicant's diploma, upon confirmation, replied that the applicant could not read nor fill out the application. I have seen government school graduates who have been unable to read a newspaper without great difficulty. This is a product of refusal of some school systems to fail students for statistical reasons. There is also the "creative answers" and measuring " gifted" by standards other than traditional means again for statistical reasons. It is for these reasons many employers require a college diploma for mediocre positions.
  • disinter ray 2010/07/07 15:51:51
  • Jason Suggs 2010/07/07 13:54:57
    Yes, schools need to instill American values.
    Jason Suggs
    Yeah, and the kids should have to take an oath against Marxism each morning while they're at it.
  • irish -liberty or death! 2010/07/07 12:47:59
    No, good teachers are hard enough to find.
    irish -liberty or death!
    +2
    "Pledges of allegiance are marks of totalitarian states, not democracies," says David Kertzer, a Brown University anthropologist who specializes in political rituals. "I can't think of a single democracy except the United States that has a pledge of allegiance."
  • ray irish -... 2010/07/07 13:50:17
    ray
    Never in the history of the world has any democracy achieved so much , in such little time , with so little to begin with. Sounds like David Kertzer is has bad ideas.
  • irish -... ray 2010/07/07 13:55:23
    irish -liberty or death!
    +2
    we are not a democracy and it is not up to us to FORCE the rest of the world to accept our way of govt.
  • ray irish -... 2010/07/07 15:11:12
    ray
    Correct the rest of the world can go its own merry way. No matter how repugnant their religion, form of government or legal system and mores are to us. At the same time Americans have the right to are own ways indifferent to "world opinion".
    Within this country any teacher who refuses to offer Pledge of Allegiance , or , swear loyalty to America should not be compelled to do so. Taxpayers should not be compelled to hire such persons or to place their children under their influence. Should one not agree, they should not seek out government positions.
  • irish -... ray 2010/07/08 11:58:15
    irish -liberty or death!
    your intolerance is showing. why should they be denied employment? because they are not required to teach and say the pledge. freedom of choice. swear loyalty?all reciting a pledge does is teach obedience and why are pledging to a flag?do you suffer from iss? Intellectual Stupidity Syndrome (ISS).
    H. L. Mencken, who wrote in The American Mercury for April 1924 that the aim of public education is not to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence. ... Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim ... is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality.

    Alexander Inglis's 1918 book, Principles of Secondary Education, in which "one saw this revolution through the eyes of a revolutionary."
    Inglis, for whom a lecture in education at Harvard is named, makes it perfectly clear that compulsory schooling on this continent was intended to be just what it had been for Prussia in the 1820s: a fifth column into the burgeoning democratic movement that threatened to give the peasants and the proletarians a voice at the bargaining table.

    Modern, industrialized, compulsory schooling was to make a sort of surgical incision into the prospective unity of...









    your intolerance is showing. why should they be denied employment? because they are not required to teach and say the pledge. freedom of choice. swear loyalty?all reciting a pledge does is teach obedience and why are pledging to a flag?do you suffer from iss? Intellectual Stupidity Syndrome (ISS).
    H. L. Mencken, who wrote in The American Mercury for April 1924 that the aim of public education is not to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence. ... Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim ... is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality.

    Alexander Inglis's 1918 book, Principles of Secondary Education, in which "one saw this revolution through the eyes of a revolutionary."
    Inglis, for whom a lecture in education at Harvard is named, makes it perfectly clear that compulsory schooling on this continent was intended to be just what it had been for Prussia in the 1820s: a fifth column into the burgeoning democratic movement that threatened to give the peasants and the proletarians a voice at the bargaining table.

    Modern, industrialized, compulsory schooling was to make a sort of surgical incision into the prospective unity of these underclasses. Divide children by subject, by age-grading, by constant rankings on tests, and by many other more subtle means, and it was unlikely that the ignorant mass of mankind, separated in childhood, would ever re-integrate into a dangerous whole.
    Inglis breaks down the purpose - the actual purpose - of modern schooling into six basic functions, any one of which is enough to curl the hair of those innocent enough to believe the three traditional goals listed earlier:
    1) The adjustive or adaptive function. Schools are to establish fixed habits of reaction to authority. This, of course, precludes critical judgment completely. It also pretty much destroys the idea that useful or interesting material should be taught, because you can't test for reflexive obedience until you know whether you can make kids learn, and do, foolish and boring things.
    2) The integrating function. This might well be called "the conformity function," because its intention is to make children as alike as possible. People who conform are predictable, and this is of great use to those who wish to harness and manipulate a large labor force.
    3) The diagnostic and directive function. School is meant to determine each student's proper social role. This is done by logging evidence mathematically and anecdotally on cumulative records. As in "your permanent record." Yes, you do have one.

    4) The differentiating function. Once their social role has been "diagnosed," children are to be sorted by role and trained only so far as their destination in the social machine merits - and not one step further. So much for making kids their personal best.

    5) The selective function. This refers not to human choice at all but to Darwin's theory of natural selection as applied to what he called "the favored races." In short, the idea is to help things along by consciously attempting to improve the breeding stock. Schools are meant to tag the unfit - with poor grades, remedial placement, and other punishments - clearly enough that their peers will accept them as inferior and effectively bar them from the reproductive sweepstakes. That's what all those little humiliations from first grade onward were intended to do: wash the dirt down the drain.

    6) The propaedeutic function. The societal system implied by these rules will require an elite group of caretakers. To that end, a small fraction of the kids will quietly be taught how to manage this continuing project, how to watch over and control a population deliberately dumbed down and declawed in order that government might proceed unchallenged and corporations might never want for obedient labor.
    (more)
  • ray irish -... 2010/07/08 13:47:36
    ray
    What intolerance? Each land is entitled to their own land,customs, traditions. Many are repugnant, please don't ask me call forth some of the horrible and disgusting ways of these hideous cultures. I wish not to cite examples here for the cultures are easy to identify by the practice. Many of these customs are hundreds, even thousands or years old. I wish not to insult any without reason. There is no quarrel , when they are there and we are here. East is east , west is west and never the two shall meet.
    Hirelings for the education of the young should either reflect the views of that land, promoting nationality and loyalty or be dismissed.
    Alexander Inglis, Having never read his book , judging only from the brief selection you have quoted. Seems to be one who views can be easily dismissed as being so misguided as to be not worthy of reply.
    Quotation of dead people having been Nitwits while alive doesn't give them credibility from the grave.
    Lastly , I shall address your first paragraph, do take care, for the pitfall of the intellectually challenged is to resort to name calling, insults, repetition of previous statements. At the moment greater credit is given you, unless , error was made by myself.
  • irish -... ray 2010/07/08 14:13:59 (edited)
    irish -liberty or death!
    again,your intolerance is showing. look at your wording and total dismissal of what has been accurately depicted. yet many "nitwits" that are dead are quoted in the educational system and you accept that.
    yuo are promoting nationalism not patriotism ,learn the difference. indoctrination by any means and with it obedience.
    yes lets address the many horrors perpetrated on people by all countries ,start with the u.s. religious or otherwise. yet you only demonize those who are not american.
    sorry to say your last 2 sentences describe you to a "t".
  • ray irish -... 2010/07/08 17:38:34
    ray
    I fail to see where I am intolerant , let each follow his own path, where is the intolerance in that.
    Do I believe that the United States is superior to all other nations, yes, and second place is a long fall downward.
    I have not demonized anyone, those nations which still practice beheading, genital mutilation, hanging live dogs upside down and clubbing to death so the meat will be tastier, kidnapping children and pressing into military service, actively practice slavery, amputating limbs for criminal offense, genocidal wars between tribes, courts that order the sister to be gang raped to punish the crime of the brother, police paid by merchants to murder orphans whom form gangs to steal for survival. Politicians, and military generals whom answer the beck and call of drug cartels. The list is without end. To each their own as long as the keep to their own borders, so be it. Such barbaric practices belong to them.
    Perhaps following the words of these long dead "nitwits" may explain the dismal state of educational system of the United States. In no other field of endeavor would anyone permit such an abysmal failure rate of product. To cast out the " professional educators" and allowing those successful in their field of endeavor as instructors would lead to a better education...
    I fail to see where I am intolerant , let each follow his own path, where is the intolerance in that.
    Do I believe that the United States is superior to all other nations, yes, and second place is a long fall downward.
    I have not demonized anyone, those nations which still practice beheading, genital mutilation, hanging live dogs upside down and clubbing to death so the meat will be tastier, kidnapping children and pressing into military service, actively practice slavery, amputating limbs for criminal offense, genocidal wars between tribes, courts that order the sister to be gang raped to punish the crime of the brother, police paid by merchants to murder orphans whom form gangs to steal for survival. Politicians, and military generals whom answer the beck and call of drug cartels. The list is without end. To each their own as long as the keep to their own borders, so be it. Such barbaric practices belong to them.
    Perhaps following the words of these long dead "nitwits" may explain the dismal state of educational system of the United States. In no other field of endeavor would anyone permit such an abysmal failure rate of product. To cast out the " professional educators" and allowing those successful in their field of endeavor as instructors would lead to a better educational system. At the bare minimum the bottom 20% of teaches should be fired each year , such that the educational system always has fresh minds coming into the system. Such that none become complacent and realize that dismissal in an option for those whom fail to perform.
    (more)
  • Jason S... irish -... 2010/07/07 13:57:02
    Jason Suggs
    Yeah, and those un-American, communist Ivy League professors can all lick my hairy ass hole.
  • irish -... Jason S... 2010/07/07 14:00:17
    irish -liberty or death!
    +1
    wow! another brainwashed idiot.
  • disinter irish -... 2010/07/07 15:52:31
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