Quantcast

No where in the bible does it say being homosexual is a sin, and the only places it refers to it is in the old testament in Leviticus, Romans, and Corinthians.

Connor Pope 2009/08/14 22:50:13
I beg everyone read this before they continue as well, totally debunks alot of the Romans Corinthians
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/globalrights/sexorient/bi...

Firstly may say it is detestable to be homosexual, but no where does it directly say "Being Homosexual is a Sin"

Second of all, any reference to being homosexual as being wrong is in the old testament, in the new testament homosexual doesn't mean being "Gay". Refer to the link above.

Thirdly, "Love Thy Neighbor", it means love everyone, including those who are gay and those who are black, and white, and racist, and hateful (Yes, including Conservatives :P)

Fourthly, the bible specifically says "Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."" , much like the golden rule, if you say being a homosexual is a sin then you to will be judged by others.

Fifthly, if you truly believe in those laws from those books including Leviticus, then surely you HAVE to believe in these, otherwise you will be Proof-testing the bible for your own opinions, which is wrong.

These are the laws from Leviticus, you either believe in them ALL or you don't.

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)
Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) Have you ever done that?
If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10). I wonder if Dr. Laura would like that one to be enforced?
If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)
If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)
If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16). I guess you should kill the animal since they were willing participants. Are they crazy?
If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)
Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)
If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)
People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)
Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)
Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Sixthly, it is NATURAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL. The brain patters of a homosexual are close to the same of that of a heterosexual of the opposite sex. The hormones are much different in a homosexual's brain then that of a heterosexual of the same gender.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1815538,00.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080616-gay-br...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7791888/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,367848,00.html


Seventhly, it is so natural that even ANIMALS show homosexual tendencies.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_g...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homos...
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/5550488/Homos...

A Summary

When one compares the original Hebrew and Greek writings with various English translations of the Bible, discrepancies emerge. There are many passages in English Bibles which clearly condemn same-sex activities. But when the original Hebrew or Greek text is studied, the passages are either ambiguous or are unrelated to consentual homosexuality within a committed relationship. Two words which are often mistranslated in many places in the Hebrew Scriptures are:

* qadesh means a male temple prostitute who engaged in ritual sex; it is often mistranslated as “sodomite” or “homosexual.”
* to’ebah means a condemned foreign Pagan religious cult practice, but often translated as “abomination.”

We have concluded the following:

* The Bible has a lot to say about temple prostitution, including homosexual ritual prostitution. This was a common practice within the Canaanite fertility religion; some believe that the practice was also taken up by some ancient Israelites.
* God’s destruction of town of Sodom had nothing to do with homosexuality
* The Bible says little about homosexual feelings.
* It says nothing about sexual orientation; the concept of orientation dates only from the late 19th century.
* A number of homosexual relationships are described positively or neutrally in the Bible
* Of the many hundreds of Jesus’ instructions and prohibitions, few have a sexual component and none condemn homosexuality.
* Paul may have condemned same-sex sexual activities by homosexuals, but the passages are unclear; there are many possible interpretations.
* Bible translators must be aware of the errors that have been made in previous versions of the Bible; they are widely discussed in theological literature. But it would probably not be economically possible at this time to produce a translation of the Bible that was accurate. People are so used to expecting homophobic references in a half-dozen locations in scrip

A Caution

The words “homosexual” and “homosexuality” do not appear in the Bible—at least they are absent from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. The authors of the Bible did not understand sexual orientation; this concept was only developed in the late 19th century. The writers had little or no comprehension of same-sex committed relationships. Their languages had no words for these concepts. Rather, they assumed that everyone was heterosexual, but that some heterosexuals engaged in sex with persons of the same gender. Thus, when you see one of these terms in an English translation of the Bible, it is important to dig deeper and find what the original Hebrew or Greek text really means.
Bible References

In Biblical times, same-gender sexual interactions could take many forms. Some were:

1. kings of conquered tribes were sometimes raped by the invading army as the ultimate symbol of defeat and humiliation. Homosexual rape was also a way of humiliating visitors and strangers. These were acts of power and domination and had nothing in common with consentual sex by gays and lesbians.
2. some non-Jewish tribes in the area had male prostitutes in their temples who ritually engaged in same-sex activities; this horrified the ancient Israelites. Temple prostitution is no longer found in most areas of the world.
3. it was common within the Roman Empire for male adults to keep boy prostitutes for the purpose of sexual activity. The boys were often slaves. In modern times, this is considered child abuse, a criminal offense.
4. it is reasonable to assume that many loving gay and lesbian relationships existed in Biblical times, but these would normally have been conducted in secret.

Only the last type would have any similarity to today’s gay and lesbian consentual, committed, loving relationships.
People’s Beliefs Regarding the Bible

People differ greatly in their view of the Bible:

* Generally speaking, Fundamentalists and other Evangelical Christians believe that:
o the Bible, as originally written, is inerrent (infallible) and that God prevented the authors from making even a single error
o every verse is useful in their understanding of God’s intentions
o one should initially attempt to interpret each passage according to its literal meaning
Many conservative Christians believe that certain translations are essentially free of error; e.g. the King James Version and the New International Version. Thus, when they read some of the passages that clearly and unmistakably condemn homosexuality, they are inclined to trust the translators and conclude that God hates homosexuality. Unfortunately, many groups of translators have been heavily biased against certain people, including Witches, gays and lesbians; many have tended to warp their translations accordingly.
* More liberal Christians tend to look upon the Bible as containing many translation errors, whose verses should not necessarily all be taken at their face value. Sections which accept and regulate slavery, limit the rights of women and condemn homosexuality are some examples.

Each Bible translation reflects the world view, beliefs and mind sets of its translators. Their personal biases distort their work. There is an additional complexity facing translators: today’s society is very different from that of Biblical times. It is sometimes difficult to find a current English word that closely matches a Hebrew or Greek term.

Same-Sex Relationships in the Bible

The Bible describes three emotionally close relationships between two people of the same gender. They appear to have progressed well beyond a casual friendship:

* Ruth and Naomi
* David and Jonathan
* Daniel and Ashpenaz

Daniel’s relationship appears to have been a committed homosexual partnership; the others may or may not have been sexually active.
Conclusions

* There may be as many as three references in the Bible to committed homosexual relationships, none of which was condemned.
* Homosexual activity in the temple by male prostitutes is clearly prohibited by the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament).
* Prostitution, both heterosexual and homosexual is generally condemned.
* Sexual abuse of boys by adult males is condemned
* St. Paul considered at least some male and female homosexual acts to be forbidden, but it is unclear precisely which acts are included. He may have been referring to:
o temple prostitution,
o people who are not innately gay, lesbian or bisexual, but who engaged in homosexual acts,
o to child sexual abuse, or
o group sexual orgies.

Paul was certainly aware of sexual orgies in Pagan temples, including both heterosexual and homosexual encounters. He would have been aware of the practice of male adults keeping a boy for sexual purposes. These may have been the only forms of same gender sex that he knew of. He did not appear to make any references in his writings to consentual, committed homosexual relationships. He probably did not know of any.

One should note that Paul also condemned women preaching (1 Cor 14:34) or wearing gold or pearls (1 Tim 2:11). He also accepted and did not condemn the institution of slavery. Many Christians feel that his writings reflect his own prejudices are not a particularly useful guide for ethics and morals in the 20th Century.
* Jesus made many hundreds of statements regarding belief and behavior. However He never mentioned homosexuality.
* It is the subject of endless debate whether St. Paul’s prohibition of at least some homosexual acts was:
o for the people in the vicinity of the Mediterranean during the 1st Century CE, or
o for all people, forever.

One can argue that the ancient Israelites were surrounded by warlike tribes. Their fertility was very important if the group was to survive. The early Christian church was persecuted by the Roman government and by the Jewish religious leaders. Homosexuals tend to have few children; thus their presence would be met with opposition. At the end of the 20th Century, conditions are the exact opposite; we are threatened by our excessive fertility. Perhaps Paul’s criticism of homosexuality is no longer valid, like his various prohibitions against women’s behavior.
You!
Add Photos & Videos

Top Opinion

  • Disko Pickle 2009/08/15 01:04:29
    Disko Pickle
    +20
    Sorry, but the Bible is 100% clear that homosexuality is a sin for which the punishment is death. There is no wiggle room on this one. If you want to have an open mind about homosexuality, I'm afraid you're going to have to drop your Christian faith. You can't have it both ways.

Sort By
  • Most Raves
  • Least Raves
  • Oldest
  • Newest
Opinions

  • rightside Connor ... 2009/08/17 01:01:08
    rightside
    See, I told you that you would discount every thing.
    I won't defend you to God, you'll have to do that yourself.
    end transmission.
  • Connor ... rightside 2009/08/17 01:05:53
    Connor Pope
    I never discounted or denounced anything, I simply posted facts and I actually studied the bible and learned that no where in the bible is homosexuality a sin.

    It never talks about homosexuality as a sin in the bible, it never says it is a sin, Jesus never talks about it, God never talks about it, it is only coming from your head.
  • Blondie... Connor ... 2009/08/17 02:28:59
  • Connor ... Blondie... 2009/08/17 02:33:13
    Connor Pope
    Where in the bible does it say homosexuality is a sin?

    You have to remember the original word for homosexuality meant Ritualistic Rape in Ancient Hebrew. There was no word for homosexuality back then.
  • Blondie... Connor ... 2009/08/17 02:34:50
  • Connor ... Blondie... 2009/08/17 02:46:08
    Connor Pope
    Leviticus = Old testament. Jesus took those laws away.

    Also Homosexual actually means Ritualistic Rape in the Ancient Hebrew documents.

    http://www.worldpolicy.org/pr...
  • Blondie... Connor ... 2009/08/17 02:44:22
  • Connor ... Blondie... 2009/08/17 02:46:42
    Connor Pope
    +1
    Yes, we do, I never said those were gone. Those were the ones created by God, they are the commandments, not laws, there is a difference.
  • Blondie... Connor ... 2009/08/17 02:50:50
  • Connor ... Blondie... 2009/08/17 02:52:18
    Connor Pope
    I'm not justifying anything, I have provided reasoning and facts.

    The original texts clearly state that what was the sin was ritualistic rape, not homosexuality. It was simply the most often used translation.

    You can't say its a fact Blondie, it is simply your own interpretation of the bible.
  • Andy 2009/08/16 20:02:16
    Andy
    i'm suprised how many questions on this site ask about that
  • マキシマムザ NAO 2009/08/16 18:05:39 (edited)
    マキシマムザ NAO
    I don't believe in the bible, but I do believe if you believe in the bible and are homosexual you should either pick one or the other. You can't have it both ways. I still don't see the scripture in the bible that clearly says "homosexuality is a sin" and we never will, because the bible will never change, or at least the christians brag about how it hasn't changed for over 2000 years right?



    Anyway, this debate is boring. I've debated it enough and was forced to choose a different religion.

    changed 2000 years debate boring ive debated forced choose religion
  • Connor ... マキシマムザ NAO 2009/08/16 20:35:27
    Connor Pope
    http://www.worldpolicy.org/pr...

    Homosexuality is actually never mentioned in the bible. Read the link, you don't have to change religions.
  • daylight Connor ... 2009/08/16 23:09:13 (edited)
    daylight
    qadesh - means a male temple prostitute who engaged in ritual sex; it is often mistranslated as “sodomite” or “homosexual.”
    to’ebah - means a condemned foreign Pagan religious cult practice, but often translated as “abomination.”

    Connor, can't you see this? This was in your posting worldpolicy.
    Being homoseuality is a pagan religious cult practice.
    They practice what is unnatural & Pagan.
    Many have lost their lives to aids through this practice which has taken lives of many others that didn't practice this. I had a friend whos husband would go to gay bars and pick a gay men. He got aids, gave it to his wife. They are now both dead. She was 32, he was 36. This life style is unclean.
    God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah for this practice and the other sick sexual things done with animals.

    Disko is right There is no wiggle room on this one.
    Common sense knows this is just wrong.
  • Connor ... daylight 2009/08/16 23:44:13
    Connor Pope
    What the hell? It is not a Pagan Religious Cult Practice it is a natural reaction that over 10% of the human population has.

    What the heck, it does not take lives, AID's wasn't even around back then. Thats a horrible example, I am sorry for your friends but it makes no sence, you said.

    You are wrong Daylight, read the WHOLE thing, it tells about the Sodom and Gomorah story.
  • daylight Connor ... 2009/08/17 00:27:17
    daylight
    Connor, but aids is here now and killing many homosexual.
    Connor I have seen demons cast out of homosexuals, I know some that are no more homosexuals and belong to the Lord now and would tell you that you are wrong. Many have the tendency and go for it, many have the tendency and do not...............

    Overcoming The Homosexual Lifestyle

    Question: Dear Sir: I am a homosexual recently converted to Christianity. Can I overcome my homosexuality?

    Answer: Yes, you can overcome your homosexuality. There seems to be a great controversy in the psychological and theological arenas whether a person is born a homosexual or not. One of the latest finding, according to a 1993 study at the University of Colorado and the Whitehead Institute of Biomedical Research in Cambridge, Massachusetts, suggests that there might a homosexual gene that predisposes a person toward homosexuality. Wow! Wouldn’t it be frightening to be controlled by chemicals in our bodies without the possibility of making cognitive decisions. On the other hand whether or not there is a homosexual gene is an issue for the Christian. Why not? Because the Bible does say that we are "born in sin and shapen in iniquity." There are "genes" that give us the tendency to evil things but they don’t make us do them.

    Strictly s...





















    Connor, but aids is here now and killing many homosexual.
    Connor I have seen demons cast out of homosexuals, I know some that are no more homosexuals and belong to the Lord now and would tell you that you are wrong. Many have the tendency and go for it, many have the tendency and do not...............

    Overcoming The Homosexual Lifestyle

    Question: Dear Sir: I am a homosexual recently converted to Christianity. Can I overcome my homosexuality?

    Answer: Yes, you can overcome your homosexuality. There seems to be a great controversy in the psychological and theological arenas whether a person is born a homosexual or not. One of the latest finding, according to a 1993 study at the University of Colorado and the Whitehead Institute of Biomedical Research in Cambridge, Massachusetts, suggests that there might a homosexual gene that predisposes a person toward homosexuality. Wow! Wouldn’t it be frightening to be controlled by chemicals in our bodies without the possibility of making cognitive decisions. On the other hand whether or not there is a homosexual gene is an issue for the Christian. Why not? Because the Bible does say that we are "born in sin and shapen in iniquity." There are "genes" that give us the tendency to evil things but they don’t make us do them.

    Strictly speaking, one cannot be born a homosexual because it is a learned behavior, as are anger, fear, lust, prostitution, and even love. Certainly, however, one can be born with the predisposition toward homosexuality. A homosexual may be defined as a person who willingly engages in homosexual acts. In other words, tendencies, genetic make-up, or biological deficiencies, should not dictate to us. I am certain that if the genetic scientists checked even further, they might find a gene for every deviant behavior and attitude in the human race. Interestingly, the Times Magazine, July 1995 issue, presented a cover story entitled "Infidelity, It May Be in Our Genes." In the early 70s, a scientist supposedly discovered that serial killers have an extra "y" chromosome, which is believed to make them more violent. Recently researchers "discovered" that there is a gene for alcoholism. What next?

    If we are dictated to by our genetic structure, hormonal flow, and impulses, we are no better than the animals. Many of us, heterosexuals and homosexuals, do act like them. Humans were made with a special gift called the power and freedom of choice. This freedom to choose, controlled by the Holy Spirit, should help us conquer the natural, sinful inclinations of our body cells and nerves. The brain cells are designed to function independently of all cells in the body. We ultimately decide who we are, what we want to be, and our destiny in life.

    Our great challenge, then, is how we as Christians relate to homosexuals and lesbians. Often we expect them to practice heterosexuality instantly, forgetting that any behavioral change takes time. One can stop the habit instantly, but the desires and impulses may still remain.

    Many pro-homosexuals say that Christian teachings are making some homosexuals feel unnecessarily frustrated, depressed, and even commit suicide. They say that God does not condemn homosexual practices. A "Christian" psychologist once said to me: "A loving God would never condemn a man if he wants another man to be his sexual partner. God is love and if a man is a Christian and loves, then it is from God." This is false.

    It is not the Christian teaching that’s causing the problem. Rather, it is a misconception of what freedom from sin really means, and knowing what Grace and Mercy are all about. Yes, we have the freedom to be homosexual, but being free to choose does not remove the consequences of the abuse of that freedom. When God gives victory over sinful acts, sinful desires are not necessarily removed immediately.

    How does one really become a homosexual or a lesbian? This is a difficult question because no one really knows all the answers. However, Dr. Tim LaHaye in his book, "The Unhappy Gays" presents what he thinks are the components for developing a homosexual predisposition. He cites: (1) permissive childhood training, (2) insecurity about sexual identity, (3) childhood sexual experiences, (4) early interest in sex. These components, according to Dr. LaHaye, lead to a predisposition toward homosexuality. However, the person is not yet a homosexual. It is also important to understand that it is possible that one may have a biological tendency toward homosexuality and still have a well-balanced happy family background. I believe that homosexuals are made, not born. Having the tendency does not make one a homosexual. Dr. LaHaye presents the formula for producing a homosexual: (1) having a predisposition toward homosexuality, (2) having the first homosexual experience, (3) pleasurable and positive homosexual thoughts, (4) more homosexual experiences, (5) more pleasurable thoughts. Then a person becomes a homosexual.

    Initially, having the desire to make love with someone of the same sex does not in itself make one a homosexual or a lesbian. When these desires are cultivated and acted upon, then one becomes a homosexual. Therefore, it is important to make a definite choice not to cultivate the thoughts or act on our desires. We can choose to remain heterosexual. The desire may be very strong. So are the desires to smoke, use cocaine, have multiple sex partners, cheat on one’s spouse, steal, etc. We can choose, with the power of the Holy Spirit, to abstain from homosexual acts.

    Dear recovering homosexual or lesbian, you may never be able to love someone of the opposite sex the way you want to, or the way others want you to, or the way God intended you to, but I believe that your spiritual direction is more important. In other words, the real test is not whether or not you love another individual of the opposite sex, but whether you love the Creator, the One who will recreate you in His time. As a result of your love for Him, you will develop a strategy to conquer the desire. Your friendships, associations, daily habits, etc. may need to be altered. Claim the promise of healing power (although you see no evidence of it). "Make no provision for the lust of the flesh" Romans 13:14.

    Dear friend, read carefully my adaptation of several verses by the Apostle Paul from the Bible on his own struggles and his understanding of God’s mercy and grace: "At birth I was sold to homosexual tendencies on the auction block of sin. In time God touched me and showed me that my homosexual lifestyle was against Him. So I cried out to Him for deliverance and He delivered me. Now I no longer practice homosexuality; however, there is still something inside me that constantly tries to entice me to love another man sexually. My faith in Jesus is strong. Each day I submit to him, allowing His powers to neutralize the ever-present force of homosexuality. There is a war within my body. One force wants to recapture my body into the slavery of homosexuality but with my mind I want to be straight. I cry out again to God: "When will this all be over?" He says" "Trust Me, My Grace is sufficient for you." Now I know that although the battle will remain within, I focus on Christ who gives me peace of mind. I am no longer a homosexual. I am bought by Christ’s blood who will one day free me forever from this confused condition. Because of Jesus, I have a new experience, a foretaste of that freedom to come. (Adaptation from 1 Cor 6:9-11; 10:13; Rom 5:12,14; 7:14,15).

    Next week I will share a special story of how one person got freedom from homosexuality. If you are interested in becoming a part of an organization to help individuals recover from the homosexual lifestyle then call 242 323 8772 or 305-767 4976 . To get books and other resources to help overcome the homosexual lifestyle write to Exodus International P.O. Box 77652m Seattle, Washington, 98177 or call them at 206 784 7799.

    .

    Its a choice,
    (more)
  • Connor ... daylight 2009/08/17 00:32:13
    Connor Pope
    +1
    Aids isn't just killing homosexuals it is killing everyone. It is stereotypical to say that AIDS only kills homosexuals.

    I have posted more then enough evidence to prove that not only is homosexuality not truly talked about in the bible but that being homosexual is not a choice.

    I suggest you talk to my homosexual friends to learn what the true meaning of it is. It isn't a messy lifestyle, my gay friends are extremely happy with who they are and they will not let someone like you judge them and tell them it is wrong.

    Also that is quite the Biased column you have there for the priest who is talking doesn't really know much about the bible.
  • daylight Connor ... 2009/08/17 01:08:46
    daylight
    +1
    I never said aids was just killing homosexuals. You are twisting my words. I have talked to my ex - gay friends who came out of homosexual life style and at one time they too were extremely happy. God called them out of it.

    Now Connor this pastor has ministered to hundreds if not more and many have changed and are thankful.............it seems to me that you are biase.

    I don't judge the homosexuals, they are already judged by the choice they have made and this is said in Romans 1:26-28.

    You got me wrong it is the Father who is the judge.
    I am just a sign post & a wittness to the truth of his word.

    Again this is one you have no wiggle room.
    This is spiritual and much bigger then you understand.

    Look, I see you are fixed on your point and I am fixed on Romans and knowing the Lord & Father for 30 years, I have seen more and lived more and know more then you and speak from years of wisdom.

    So, I will go on now knowing your belief is true to your heart.
    I won't bring it up to you again, now that I know for sure you have put your blessing on this life style. Be careful for you do not know what you are dealing with.

    God bless you my friend with revelation, wisdom of the Fathers heart and is holy will......... :)
  • Connor ... daylight 2009/08/17 01:12:54
    Connor Pope
    +1
    God called them out of happyness? Being EX-GAy is impossible daylight, it is a part of your brain not a personality trait you can change.

    If he has ministered to hundreds then I truly feel sorry for those that listened to him.

    If you believe in the romans then you must believe that slavery is a good thing right? Considering Paul said it was a good thing.

    You still haven't gotten it day light, homosexuality in the bible means RITUALISTIC RAPE. Not the current day term of HOMOSEXUALITY.

    There is a bunch of wiggle room, the bible isn't a predetermined set of laws that you have to listen to, it is translated throughout languages and can be interpreted in many ways.

    Just because you have lived more then me gives you no right to say that you have more "wisdom" then me. Interpreting the bible has no age set to understand it

    No where in the bible does it say homosexuality is a sin, no where does jesus talk about homosexuality, no where does God condone it, it doesn't even talk about it in the bible as a bad thing.
  • マキシマムザ NAO Connor ... 2009/08/16 23:22:12
    マキシマムザ NAO
    +1
    Too late, I already did.
  • Connor ... マキシマムザ NAO 2009/08/16 23:52:29
    Connor Pope
    Thats great
  • Shelly 2009/08/16 17:26:18
    Shelly
    +2
    I am God and i say: I love all my children. Period.

    If they sin they can always ask for forgiveness and enter into my kingdom. End of discussion.

    god love children period sin forgiveness enter kingdom discussion
  • Connor ... Shelly 2009/08/16 20:35:55 (edited)
    Connor Pope
    I agree <_<
  • Ken Connor ... 2009/08/16 20:38:55
    Ken
    I think she's agreeing with you on this one....
  • Connor ... Ken 2009/08/16 20:53:49
    Connor Pope
    After re-reading it yeah I think so to >_>
  • Dean Reinheimer 2009/08/16 12:03:27
    Dean Reinheimer
    +5
    Fascinating.... tho I guess not really... this discussion BEGAN with a question about what the Bible teaches about the SIN of homosexual behavior (subpoint: God hates sin... THAT'S WHY JESUS CHRIST DIED).

    The Bible has remained EXACTLY the same for almost 2000 years, much longer in the instance of what we call the "Old Testament canon."

    The COUNTER-argument primarily appeals to an article promoted (written?) by the Ontario Center for Religious Tolerance (BTW, how much "tolerance" is there in Canada for those who hold to a literal, normal interpretation of the Bible and PROCLAIM its teachings, hmmmm?) and supposedly substantiated by a series of "scientific" research reports.

    I remember being taught there was a time when "scientists" believed rotting meat MADE (i.e. CREATED) maggots.

    Another example: When I was in grade school, the "scientists" were VERY concerned about another "ice age" coming upon us. The research AT THAT TIME indicated such was so. How different are things now?

    Before our Apollo program landed on the the moon, the "scientists" were VERY concerned about the lunar lander SINKING into 4 billion years of collected "space dust." That's why they sent the lander up with large "pads" on the bottom of the craft. Now, how deep did they find the dust on the surfac...





    Fascinating.... tho I guess not really... this discussion BEGAN with a question about what the Bible teaches about the SIN of homosexual behavior (subpoint: God hates sin... THAT'S WHY JESUS CHRIST DIED).

    The Bible has remained EXACTLY the same for almost 2000 years, much longer in the instance of what we call the "Old Testament canon."

    The COUNTER-argument primarily appeals to an article promoted (written?) by the Ontario Center for Religious Tolerance (BTW, how much "tolerance" is there in Canada for those who hold to a literal, normal interpretation of the Bible and PROCLAIM its teachings, hmmmm?) and supposedly substantiated by a series of "scientific" research reports.

    I remember being taught there was a time when "scientists" believed rotting meat MADE (i.e. CREATED) maggots.

    Another example: When I was in grade school, the "scientists" were VERY concerned about another "ice age" coming upon us. The research AT THAT TIME indicated such was so. How different are things now?

    Before our Apollo program landed on the the moon, the "scientists" were VERY concerned about the lunar lander SINKING into 4 billion years of collected "space dust." That's why they sent the lander up with large "pads" on the bottom of the craft. Now, how deep did they find the dust on the surface of the moon? The "scientists" (again, like we ALL do) misinterpreted the observable facts which led them to incorrect conclusions.

    Science is in a CONSTANT state of flux, the Word of God is settled forever.

    We all have a worldview, whether we realize it or not. The basis and ground upon which we observe the world and everything in it... is it filtered through the lens of naturalism or through the lens of the UNCHANGING Word of God?

    I suppose the most disturbing thing I see in this discussion is how my Brothers and Sisters in the Lord Jesus Christ DESIRE to be contentious in this discussion. We CANNOT take the role of the Holy Spirit in another person's life... Please remember this, Brethren!
    (more)
  • Connor ... Dean Re... 2009/08/16 14:59:26
    Connor Pope
    +1
    So are you saying it is a sin to be homosexual or not? I suggest you read this to truly know what god exactly was talking about back when the bible was written

    http://www.worldpolicy.org/pr...
  • Brother... Connor ... 2009/08/16 17:03:06
    BrotherJohn
    Do you realize that the vast majority of Theologians and Bible Scholars find this study to be seriously flawed and its conclusions unsubstantiated?
  • Connor ... Brother... 2009/08/16 20:36:40
    Connor Pope
    +1
    Saying something isn't the same as providing evidence brother.

    Give me a link telling how many Scholars find it flawed? Or the percentage of Theologians that think it's wrong?

    I provided evidence with reasoning, you provided opinion.
  • Brother... Connor ... 2009/08/17 21:37:05
    BrotherJohn
    Actually I just asked you a question. Have you researched the dissenting voices to this dubious organization? As for Theologians who disagree just off the top of my head I would list Alister McGrath, Tom Wright, Wayne Gruden, R.C. Sproul, Ravi Zacharias, Michael Horton. These right off the top of my head who disagree with the whole "Temple Prostitute" theory of Romans.
  • Connor ... Brother... 2009/08/17 22:23:13
    Connor Pope
    +1
    You can't disagree with what a word means Brother!
  • Brother... Connor ... 2009/08/18 14:45:43
    BrotherJohn
    +1
    Sure you can. There are many words that there is much disagreement about. Words, terms, usage, grammar, etc. Problems of translation are replete. Have you ever studied translation theory?
  • Connor ... Brother... 2009/08/18 14:58:20
    Connor Pope
    +1
    Well technically you are right, and with Ancient Hebrew there were no vowels so it is extremely hard to translate them however none of the meanings of Qadesh mean homosexuality as it is often interpreted. It can mean Ritualistic Raper, Pederasty, or it was the Name of a queen in Caanine.

    Translation Theory? I don't think I'm old enough yet but maybe in a couple years I will
  • Brother... Connor ... 2009/08/18 15:11:58
    BrotherJohn
    +1
    Only because we speak of homosexuality as an "orientation" of which the ancient Hebrews had no sense. The acts (same sex sex)however clearly have been described under the term Qadesh in both secular and talmudic writings.

    Translation Theory is a growing body of study concerning the actual work of Translation. Translation includes a constantly changing and growing body of knowledge with differing views of appropriate practices and ethics within the discipline. It is unlikely you will ever encounter it any deeper than a cursory understanding unless you actually pursue the study.
  • Connor ... Brother... 2009/08/18 16:10:54
    Connor Pope
    +1
    They literally had no sense though, they new of same sex relation ships and sex but they didn't have any concern over it. The real concerns are rape, as shown by the same word.

    Eh, I don't think I will pursue translation theory I am more into Biology and Engineering
  • Brother... Connor ... 2009/08/18 16:18:46
    BrotherJohn
    +1
    Sure they had concern over it. Not only the passages in Scripture which you have accepted a minority opinion of, but the Talmud and secular writings address same sex sex a lot. The Hebrews understood what Leviticus was referring to, just as the Early Church Fathers realized what Paul was writing about and both the Hebrews and the Early Church Fathers understanding was that same sex sex is a sin. Instead you have decided to adopt a position which is purely speculation written by a biased group thousands of years removed from the actual writing. That of course is your choice but academic honesty is on the side of those commenting shortly after the writing.
  • Connor ... Brother... 2009/08/18 16:54:46
    Connor Pope
    +1
    The letters paul wrote condemned the act of ritualistic rape and pederasty, when leviticus said abomination, he meant a cultist group, as that is also a word translated into abomination many times.

    Quadesh wasn't ever translated into the word homosexuality in ancient hebrew because their WAS no word for homosexuality, the people made no correlation between being homosexual and having sex with the same gender.

    They may have known about it, but what paul was really reffering to was ritualistic rape, not homosexuality in todays meaning of the word.

    Leviticus is in the old testament first of all, and yet again the word Quadesh means Ritualistic Rape or Pederasty.

    This is not pure speculation, those were the words written in the original bible. You should always know you are reading a translation brother, never the original writing
  • Brother... Connor ... 2009/08/18 18:18:04
    BrotherJohn
    +1
    Again you are basing your comments on the work of this one group. The Early Church Fathers who commented on Paul's writings upheld that Paul was indeed speaking of same sex sex.

    As for your comments about Leviticus first of all Paul didn't write Leviticus, secondly that word is translated different ways in different portions of Scripture. That is why one must compare it's usage to other usages and to the context in which it is written. More importantly the Hebrews knew that it was referring to same sex sex and they commented on this in the Talmud more than once.

    You claim that Paul was really writing of "ritualistic rape" yet those closest to the Apostles, the Early Church Fathers, claim otherwise. I tend to believe those who lived in the same culture and community to have a better understanding of what Paul was writing about than I do a group of people who clearly have an agenda who live in an entirely different culture and are 20 centuries removed.

    I never claimed that Quadesh referred to Homosexuality I said it referred to the act of same sex, sex. Where did I claim that Leviticus was in the New Testament?

    As for your final comment. There was no "original Bible". If you are referring to the autographs, we don't have in our possession any of them. None of the orig...
    Again you are basing your comments on the work of this one group. The Early Church Fathers who commented on Paul's writings upheld that Paul was indeed speaking of same sex sex.

    As for your comments about Leviticus first of all Paul didn't write Leviticus, secondly that word is translated different ways in different portions of Scripture. That is why one must compare it's usage to other usages and to the context in which it is written. More importantly the Hebrews knew that it was referring to same sex sex and they commented on this in the Talmud more than once.

    You claim that Paul was really writing of "ritualistic rape" yet those closest to the Apostles, the Early Church Fathers, claim otherwise. I tend to believe those who lived in the same culture and community to have a better understanding of what Paul was writing about than I do a group of people who clearly have an agenda who live in an entirely different culture and are 20 centuries removed.

    I never claimed that Quadesh referred to Homosexuality I said it referred to the act of same sex, sex. Where did I claim that Leviticus was in the New Testament?

    As for your final comment. There was no "original Bible". If you are referring to the autographs, we don't have in our possession any of them. None of the original writings exist. I am well aware that we are dealing with translations that is what I am trying to convince you of. Those who were closest to the writers which would be the Talmud for the book of Leviticus and the Early Church Fathers for the writings or Paul are a more reliable source than the group you are relying on for your information. Again you have chosen to believe a very minority view that is novel. I have chosen to believe the vastly majority view that is supported by those closest to the original writings and has been the understanding of the Christian Church for 2000 years.
    (more)
  • Connor ... Brother... 2009/08/18 20:52:26
    Connor Pope
    +2
    Show me which "Early Church Fathers" said it was same sex sex, because it was obviously an inclination towards ritualistic rape.

    I never said Paul wrote Leviticus I said he wrote the letters which are in the Romans. Leviticus is still not counting because its in the old testament. The Talmud isn't gods word though brother.

    Yet again, you are also basing your beliefs and comments on the work of the "Early Church Fathers"

    I don't understand how you can accuse me of basing my reasons on a small view then you go and say that you will believe something by the Early Church fathers. First of all those were written much like the bible over 2 Millennial ago, that isn't plausible brother.

    Either way it doesn't matter what you say to me because I just can't believe that homosexuality is a sin, and if god said it was a sin, then I will quit christianity because quite frankly I wouldn't want a god who hates so much.
  • Brother... Connor ... 2009/08/18 22:05:47
    BrotherJohn
    +1
    "Either way it doesn't matter what you say to me because I just can't believe that homosexuality is a sin, and if god said it was a sin, then I will quit christianity because quite frankly I wouldn't want a god who hates so much."


    This statement alone is what stops this discourse. I don't mind discussions with those who disagree with me but for those who tell me that "no matter what you say" no further effort is warranted on my part. I can't understand why you would believe the Early Church Fathers not plausible. They lived closest to the time of Christ and of Paul and would have had a much better understanding of what was meant than a biased group 2000 years later trying to promote an agenda. Surely you must understand that.

    At this point I would remind you that God doesn't hate homosexuals, indeed He loves and loved them enough that He incarnated and suffered the humility of death on the cross so that they and all of us could be forgiven of our sin. Surely you wouldn't say that God doesn't love liars but it is clear lying is a sin. Surely you wouldn't say that God hates thieves but most certainly theft is a sin. Making the claim that same sex sex is a sin is not the same as saying that God hates homosexuals.

    Your comments make it clear that you have determined that you will not be persuaded regardless of the argument so at this point I simply wish you well. But I ask you young friend what is the definition of being closed minded?

See Votes by State

The map above displays the winning answer by region.

News & Politics

2014/04/23 14:26:26

Hot Questions on SodaHead
More Hot Questions

More Community More Originals