Question US

New Hampshire Legalizes Gay Marriage, Exempts Clergy from Ceremonies: Is this fair?

Creamy June 04, 2009 00:53:56

The New Hampshire legislature and Governor John Lynch have approved a revised same-sex marriage bill. New Hampshire is now the sixth state in the United States to legalize gay marriage.

Governor Lynch had long been an advocate of civil unions, but more recently began supporting same-sex marriage, stating that "a separate system is not an equal system."

However, Lynch has also given special privileges to members of the clergy, who are now exempt from having to perform same-sex marriages or provide marriage counseling.

Now that the legalization of gay marriage is sweeping the U.S., should governors take after Lynch and start exempting the clergy from having to perform at gay marriage ceremonies?
The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...
No, exempting clergies from ceremonies is permitting discrimination...
I think...
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  • +4 raves Comrade JBleezz June 04, 2009 01:31:54
    Comrade JBleezz

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    The state shouldn't force churches to go against their beliefs. They have the right to decide whether or not they want to preform the service. Besides what person would want be married by someone who doesn't accept them.
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  • theshleepybear June 23, 2009 01:03:40
    theshleepybear

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    DUH. 'Nuff said.
  • Archer June 10, 2009 22:35:45
    Archer

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    Kudos to New Hampshire. One person's rights end the minute they infringe on the rights of someone else. IN this case, gay couples have the right to marry, but do NOT have the right to infringe on the rights of the clergy - forcing them to do so against their will would be horrible.

    Good on you, New Hampshire!
  • CINDERELLA June 07, 2009 23:46:52
    CINDERELLA

    I think...

    I think the churches have a right 2 say they don't believe in gays being united
  • +1 raves
    Teddy June 06, 2009 21:21:38
    Teddy

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    It is there choice.
  • +1 raves
    Isma'ila (God has heard)! June 04, 2009 23:42:25
    Isma'ila (God has heard)!

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    You cannot force people to acceot the gay agenda!
  • +1 raves
    Kenzrs June 04, 2009 22:51:43
    Kenzrs

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    if they dont want to
  • rach9990 June 04, 2009 20:42:15
    rach9990

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    I'm sure that the same ppl who don't want to perform same-sex marriages have had other marriages they didn't want to perform in- it may be discrimination, but I'm sure it's not JUST same-sex marriages they discriminate against...
  • +1 raves
    Aingean June 04, 2009 15:44:10
    Aingean

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    I think that churchs shouldnt perform services that they dont agree with. However, if they some how found a paster/minister that would agree to do the service that would be fine. I dont think the goverment should control what the church does, not just because of seperation of church and state, but because a persons beliefes are his own, if a gay couple found a willing pastor to do the ceremony I believe he or she has the right to do so
  • beba June 04, 2009 14:52:27
    beba

    I think...

    idk
  • +3 raves
    Spizzzo June 04, 2009 10:18:09
    Spizzzo

    I think...

    That clergy should not be forced to do ANY marriages they don't want to do of ANY type. If NH had a system forcing them to do heterosexual marriages up to now--that is VERY strange and wrong. There should not have been a need for this provision of the new law. I'm amazed that NH would be forcing clergy to do anything. Sounds unconstitutional to me.
  • medwreck June 04, 2009 07:36:57
    medwreck

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    I am for LGBT rights, but the establishment/free exercise clauses should obviate the need to ask this question.

    Tax exemption is where the real questions arise.
  • +2 raves
    Jo June 04, 2009 05:54:23
    Jo

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    What happened to the freedom to obey our conscience? This is what angers me most about the whole issue of same sex marriage --it's not about giving freedom to homosexuals to "marry" but is about forcing everyone else to accept homosexuality
  • +1 raves
    Spizzzo Jo June 04, 2009 10:21:49
    Spizzzo
    There is nothing in Gay marriage that forces you or anyone to accept it or them beyond the legal acceptance by government of doing the marriage in the first place. Never has been. NH apparently has had an odd system where clergy could be forced to marry people. That seems really wrong to me. But I doubt that it exists anywhere else in the US.
  • +2 raves
    Jo Spizzzo June 04, 2009 19:17:30
    Jo
    Well, then how about the wedding photographer in New Mexico who was sued by a lesbian couple because he (or she, I don't remember) declined to photograph their "wedding"? Catholic Charities in Boston was forced to close its adoption services because the state of Massachusetts told them they had to place children with homosexual couples. And I saw a story here on Soda Head about public schools in California that will require all children be taught homosexuality is okay and parents can't take their children out from this instruction, even for religious reasons. I'm sorry, but I disagree with you because the evidence of what is happening around the country suggests otherwise.
  • +1 raves
    Spizzzo Jo June 05, 2009 01:19:22
    Spizzzo
    If you care enough to look into unbiased sources, you will find that all of those examples are one-sided, biased presentations of situations that were quite different if the whole picture is looked at. I don't deny that pressure to accept homosexuals is being applied in various ways, but other than when someone is offering a government-backed service or something like that that is legally protected from discrimination, no one is forced to do anything. It's their choice to do it or not, or to offer the service or not. The photographer thing may be a bit different--because anyone can sue anyone for any reason. So what matters is the legal result, not the mere fact of a suit being brought.
  • Jo Spizzzo June 05, 2009 22:08:18
    Jo
    Why do you assume I heard this from "biased" sources? I heard about them in the mainstream media, which has a liberal, pro-homosexual bias as well as conservative sources. Regardless of the sources, these things actually happened. You can choose to ignore reality if you want, but I choose not to.
  • +1 raves
    Spizzzo Jo June 06, 2009 04:43:53
    Spizzzo
    Why do you assume I'm assuming anything? The mainstream media has hardly any discernable Left/Right bias. They DO have a Corporate bias to push "big stories" that will likely make their companies money and their channels better ratings. Few believe this, but it seems very true to me. Some support:

    http://www.whatliberalmedia.c...

    Even if you don't believe Alterman from that, it is at least enough evidence that the general acceptance without criticsm of your idea that there's a "iberal, pro-homosexual bias" in "mainstream media" should be dropped.

    It should not be too hard for you to find more complete stories covering the more complete situations for those situations. If you have done so, I don't see how you could interpret them the way you do. To me, it appears you are the one ignoring at least half of reality.
  • Jo Spizzzo June 06, 2009 13:20:25
    Jo
    That's a truly astounding statement that the mainstream media has "hardly any discernable Left/Right bias" -- they were practically campaign headquarters for Obama. Did you see the CNN reporter covering a tea party back in April-- on camera she was very open in her contempt for those participating and said it was probably something started by Fox News. I read your link to the Alterman book, but it doesn't really say much as a summary of what's in the book.

    http://www.mrc.org/biasbasics...
  • +1 raves
    Spizzzo Jo June 06, 2009 23:39:34 (edited)
    Spizzzo
    I apologize for the skimpy coverage on the Alterman site of the content of the book. I need to get the book myself, as I only saw him on TV, several years ago on a long C-SPAN segment that seemed to cover his points pretty thoroughly--but I'm sure the book does more. I'm not saying I swallowed his ideas uncritically, but they were VERY interesting and well-made points. I've been wondering if he still feels the same now that MSNBC has gotten stronger.

    But, yes, as his title suggests, his main idea is that when he looked into it, he could find little MSM bias, especially almost no Liberal bias, probably because most professional newscasters work hard to be balanced. This IS a surprising claim, as the idea that there IS a bias is so widespread and deeply-rooted. OTOH, he said that what bias there was, when looking at all media, was almost entirely Right-wing, like Fox and almost all talk radio. He pointed out (and I have seen this myself) that even some newspeople on MSM seem to buy the "Liberal bias" knock on themselves. He ends up concluding it's a Big Lie thing successfully sold to most everyone by Right-wingers screaming "Bias!" when it's mostly them doing it themselves. As I said, even if you don't believe him, it seems to me that a case for bias needs to be rebuilt in light ...













    I apologize for the skimpy coverage on the Alterman site of the content of the book. I need to get the book myself, as I only saw him on TV, several years ago on a long C-SPAN segment that seemed to cover his points pretty thoroughly--but I'm sure the book does more. I'm not saying I swallowed his ideas uncritically, but they were VERY interesting and well-made points. I've been wondering if he still feels the same now that MSNBC has gotten stronger.

    But, yes, as his title suggests, his main idea is that when he looked into it, he could find little MSM bias, especially almost no Liberal bias, probably because most professional newscasters work hard to be balanced. This IS a surprising claim, as the idea that there IS a bias is so widespread and deeply-rooted. OTOH, he said that what bias there was, when looking at all media, was almost entirely Right-wing, like Fox and almost all talk radio. He pointed out (and I have seen this myself) that even some newspeople on MSM seem to buy the "Liberal bias" knock on themselves. He ends up concluding it's a Big Lie thing successfully sold to most everyone by Right-wingers screaming "Bias!" when it's mostly them doing it themselves. As I said, even if you don't believe him, it seems to me that a case for bias needs to be rebuilt in light of Alterman's arguments. He also touched on the idea that he did see pro-sensationalistic bias for Left and Right stories--meaning the media would push/pump-up excitement for any kind of story, if they thought it would build up ratings.

    I did watch CNN a LOT during the campaign and I emphatically did NOT see evidence of them being "in the tank" for Obama. I saw balanced panels of people from both sides interviewed by carefully neutral hosts being polite to both sides. The only show clearly bending one way or the other was the Right-leaning Lou Dobbs show. As the campaign went on, there were more problems for McCain/Palin and so those problems got a lot of airtime (pro-ratings bias?). I doubt I could prove this to you, especially if you are one of those who sees Fox as balanced, but I did personally watch CNN be balanced and critical to either side as appropriate.

    That CNN lady at the Tea Pary WAS indeed over-the-top and wrong, but I don't think it is a general problem at CNN.

    Thanks for your link. I did read a fair amount of the main page stuff. I'm fairly skeptical. I am impressed that the quotes from various folks seem complete--and most of them (the media insider types) seem to be claiming a mild bias at most. Here are the oppposing thoughts/filters to these ideas I usually am viewing "through":

    -For the Right, "balance" seems to mean "actively anti-Left"

    -The Right seems to think that professional objectivity in Journalism is impossible--they think the personal beliefs of journalists are ALWAYS reflected in their work. They work hard on proving what the personal politics of journalists are, and assume that automatically means their work is biased. A bias in a story should be noticeable in the story regardless of who wrote it. A story with bias is bad journalism, unless it is labeled as opinion.

    -Therefore, I feel that the Right thinks personal biases are ALWAYS present in work because it's how they work themselves, and why they think Right-bias by Right-wing journalists is OK.

    Now those are ONLY my opinions, of course. I've thought about them a lot, but they ARE just opinions.
    (more)
  • Jo Spizzzo June 13, 2009 22:09:09
    Jo
    Thanks for taking the time to read the link. I watch/read the mainline media and conservative sources, and there's a stark contrast in what I find covered and how it is covered. I found almost no negative coverage of Obama during the campaign, but the media was highly negative towards Sarah Palin especially, and not just her political views but her personally as well. I'm not saying that all liberal journalists are biased, but I think many of them are.
  • Spizzzo Jo June 14, 2009 02:49:54
    Spizzzo
    I suppose I would then have to ask for a specific example of what you mean--that is, of an an unfair description of Palin from a Left-wing hard news source.

    This is because just showing a difference in amount of positive or negative coverage between candidates does not prove bias--there may have been genuine differences.

    Now, showing a difference in positivity or negativity between news sources when describing the same thing DOES show bias--but it doesn't show which direction the bias is. That is, perhaps Fox was biasing in favor of Palin, masking genuine problems.
  • Jo Spizzzo June 15, 2009 14:26:31
  • Spizzzo Jo June 15, 2009 23:52:40
    Spizzzo
    I see you have a background that might well help you understand my approach here:

    Thanks for the link to an interesting article. It has lots of statistics, but does not have any definitions of its measurements (like what it takes to be a "positive", "negative", or "neutral" story), and the writer is quite free with making pronouncements of what their conclusions from the data are, without really saying how they got there. So, it's hard to put a whole lot of weight on it.

    But my big problem is that it does not even address the issue I was asking about--that of bias or unfair coverage. It is all about how coverage was split up amongst positive/negative/neutral, but it does not look at fairness of coverage at all. That would be a very hard study to do, it's true--but this one does not even try.

    So, this does not show what I'd asked for, "an unfair description of Palin from a Left-wing hard news source". For that matter, it also does not even touch the concept of a Left or Right media source.

    I'm not denying that you have a strong impression of bias, just that this article does not prove it.
  • +1 raves
    Isma'il... Jo June 04, 2009 23:43:15
    Isma'ila (God has heard)!
    Amen!
  • yourmom June 04, 2009 05:35:21
    yourmom

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    churches should be able to refuse it. i wouldnt want to get married in a church anyway. There will still be churches that will be happy to do it. Theres still people who have the authority to wed people that would do it.

    It's also good because it promotes gay marriage. All the people who say it's wrong blah blah blah could leave it alone because they probably wont see it going on in their church anyway...if they're that kind of person.
  • ♥~Rainbow~♥ June 04, 2009 05:07:02 (edited)
    ♥~Rainbow~♥

    I think...

    no one... the state...the fed... or God(CHURCH) should noy have a say in who anyones heart loves....... love is love!
  • rach9990 ♥~Rainb... June 04, 2009 20:45:41
    rach9990
    That's not what the question is about... Just because the clergy doesn't want to perform a same-sex marriage doesn't mean he doesn't agree with it. It could be something about the relationship between the two men/women...
  • ♥~Rainb... rach9990 June 06, 2009 02:25:51 (edited)
    ♥~Rainbow~♥
    yeah that was what the question was about... you just didnt like the response

    no ... you are wrong...

    NOBODY has the right to tell anyone how to live or who to love! let me rephrase that NOBODY or any Supposed Diety ideolgy

    GOD loves everyone but Gays.... so unconditional love just became conditional because you said so.... get real with yourself.. and check yourself... i think you need deprogramming....
  • rach9990 ♥~Rainb... June 09, 2009 19:49:55
    rach9990
    Actually, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about better than you do! I bet you're one of those ppl who thinks if someone doesn't agree with homosexuality then they are one of the worst ppl EVER!!! You're response implied that someone- or something- is telling ppl who they can and cannot love. The question was about MARRIAGE not LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm obviously not the one who needs "deprogramming"!!
  • ♥~Rainb... rach9990 June 10, 2009 22:14:30
    ♥~Rainbow~♥
    you are dense.... have a good one~

    dense
  • HeliAce June 04, 2009 04:27:02
    HeliAce

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    Well it is still against their religion....
  • BGIRL_ROX June 04, 2009 04:11:46
    BGIRL_ROX

    I think...

    Got me on this one. I can't figure out what to say for this one. ^.^*
  • +1 raves
    !!DEATH BY FLAG TWIRLING!! June 04, 2009 03:56:03
    !!DEATH BY FLAG TWIRLING!!

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    i love gay marriage! if there in love they sould just go at it! but if we're talking about the Catholic Church its totally against the religion! i'm okay with gay marriage just not in the church. if they really love each other they'll go to court and not care. catholic church totally religion gay marriage church love court care
  • M.K. June 04, 2009 03:40:04
    M.K.

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    I am completely for gay marriage. I'm also someone who is completely against discrimination of anyone fr anything. But that is forcing someone to go against their religious beliefs in order to do something that they are being forced to do. I'm also against people being forced to go against their religious beliefs (for the most part and to a certain extent). But hey GO NEW HAMPSHIRE!!!!
  • katycapone June 04, 2009 03:24:14 (edited)
    katycapone

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    Yay For New Hampshire!! One of the most free states in this country. I am not originally from there but my parents and two of my sisters and their families live there now. My other sister is in CT (2nd state to approve gay marriage). It should be a given that churches can choose who they want to marry and who they don't, since The Constitution already guarantee's their right. I can't complain though, and I don't mind that they included this in the legislation.
  • +1 raves
    Sleepytiredgirl June 04, 2009 02:59:00
    Sleepytiredgirl

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    A justice of the peace could just as easily do a ceremony. YAY congrats to my state for doing something great!! I think clergy should decide with their church how they want to handle this..
  • lolCaitlin June 04, 2009 02:49:12
    lolCaitlin

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    It's what the gays are always saying- "We're not forcing you to do anything!" Well, if they made the clergies perform gay marriages, they would be forcing them to do something they don't agree with- and same sex marriage is against most religions anyway.
  • +1 raves
    theroamingcrow June 04, 2009 02:45:49
    theroamingcrow

    The clergy should not be forced to perform in gay marriage ceremonies...

    and besides that I wouldnt want someone performing my wedding who was against it anyway...
  • moomoof "Jin Kazama!" June 04, 2009 02:39:22
    moomoof

    I think...

    Well they should not be forced ......but why not have it for the ones that want to
  • Rashelle June 04, 2009 02:35:58 (edited)
    Rashelle

    I think...

    you should be able to marry whome ever you want no matter the sex.
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