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Let’s not make the "Westerners" our benchmark?

Begum Zebunisah Hamidullah 2012/07/28 03:07:33
Some nasty Americans have created this perception that ruins it for all !
If the West abandons its elders then we are lowering the benchmark!
You!
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Growing up, I was taught that Westerners could do no
wrong. Whether this was preached in talk shows on our TV channels; in
the columns in leading newspapers; in the examples given by professors
in educational institutions; one is bound to notice an increasing
defeatist mentality gripping the minds of opinion makers regarding their very own nation.


Any problem is presented and our society is automatically compared to the Western society;
the former is depicted as the worst nation ever to exist on planet
earth and the latter is presented as the pinnacle of human dignity,
professional excellence and moral height.


I was deputed on a seven-month international assignment with an
American oil and gas company and during my trip, I
shared accommodation with mostly Americans.


“Why are you guys (Muslims in Pakistan) either named Muhammad or Ahmad?”


The above question was thrown at me during dinner one day. There were
about 20 people at the table and if I remember correctly, a couple of
them, including myself, were Muslims. I will get back to this question
soon but first let me share a little more about my experience with you.


This official stay was my first exposure to living with Americans. It remodelled my mindset towards Caucasians completely and this is probably the best thing to have happened to me on this trip.


I am from middle class family and have no immediate family members abroad. Like many others, I thought of goras as
the most mannered and civilised people in the world. This opinion was
built upon columns from people like Hasan Nisar and Javed Chaudhry, who
present an impeccable image of goras. I also recall a number of lectures from my university professors, cursing their own students and depicting the society of goras as the apex of morals and ethics.


In fact, if I remember correctly, some of my friends who had visited US , upon their return praised the goras for all the good qualities the human race could possibly adopt.


However, living with Americans for
seven months was an eye opener for me. It humanized them and made me
realise that their image of being professionally impeccable and morally
superior is completely untrue. All those comparisons made between
Pakistanis and goras that I once read in newspaper columns evaporated in thin air as I received this hands-on experience on living with them.


As per my experience, there wasn’t a single bad habit, both professionally and personally, that Pakistanis and goras didn’t share. Every night, there was an elaborate session of back-biting where all the goras would
sit and complain about the incompetence and unprofessional styles of their
seniors – and not very kindly or in perfect English, mind you.


Most were habitual in their late arrival at the office. Usage of official phones for personal reasons (mostly never ending calls to girl friends)
was also frequent. In fact, a cultured and civilised Caucasian in his
mid-forties, who lived his life in a law abiding society, was also
caught stealing meat from the office fridge!


On one of the days, the facility head made a surprise visit to the
office only to see that even after twenty minutes into the official
reporting time, his employees had not shown up. Reasonably annoyed at
this behavior, he told them off and the very next day, just like us Pakistanis, they were all in on time!


It wouldn’t be wrong to conclude that Americans are just like any
Ahsan, Nasir or Abdul of Pakistan. They will follow all rules and
regulations only when imposed on them with some sort warning or penalty.


The point I want to make is regarding the defeatist mentality that pushes our opinion makers to present goras as
superior beings. They praise them in all ways possible and insult us
Pakistanis whilst comparing us to them. Why do we make these people the
benchmark when they are clearly just as human as we are?


I do not wish to generalize here, but it upsets me that other
societies and their morals are glorified when in actuality, they don’t
deserve such praise.


Let’s set our own benchmark; let’s make Abdul Sattar Edhi our role
model; let’s highlight the morals and values of people like Salman
Taseer; Let’s live like Dr Ruth Pfau.


We have enough Pakistanis who can make great role models; why do we need to worship American society then?


Finally, to answer the question that was initially posed to me:


“Why are you guys (Muslims in Pakistan) either named Muhammad or Ahmad?”


I replied,


“The same reason why you guys are either named John or David.”





Do you think Pakistanis consider Americans to be the benchmark for perfection?fdf

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  • BlytheSpirit~bn0 2012/07/28 07:22:36
    Some nasty Americans have created this perception that ruins it for all !
    BlytheSpirit~bn0
    +1
    I am sorry that the "West" has been held up as an icon to you. Personally, I hate it that the West has infiltrated other countries and completely changed everything. People in India are losing their traditions because of Western influence. You stated that the same is happening in Pakistan. And it's happening all around the world. In the US we don't have "traditions" like other older countries. We're a country of immigrants who all bring different traditions with them and somehow they either get blended or forgotten. We're not all bad, but we're certainly not all good either.

    By the way, I buy all of my henna from Pakistan and it's glorious! You guys grow the best Henna in the world!
  • Chaya2010 2012/07/28 03:33:26
    Some nasty Americans have created this perception that ruins it for all !
    Chaya2010
    I disagree with the two question options. Western culture is far from perfect and is a work in progress however in comparison to Pakistani culture or Muslim culture which I know isn't a monolith it is overall superior.

    Your experience seem to have been shaped by ignorant and ill-informed people, as for your statement about "Caucasians" that's an entire racial group of people that spans countries and continents.

    Just look at Pakistan, poverty, illiteracy, endemic inbreeding, its a failing state/military dictatorship, 1000 people are murdered due to honor killing and has a gross human rights record. It has problems that simply aren't as prevalent or don't exist in the so called West.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cu...
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ne...
    http://www.hrw.org/asia/pakis...
    http://www.amnestyusa.org/our...

    You can look at the Human Development Index (designed by a Pakistani) or Freedom House and compare them to Western nations and you'll see the difference is stark. It is far behind the West. This is not to say that there aren't things which the West can learn from though.
    I disagree with the two question options. Western culture is far from perfect and is a work in progress however in comparison to Pakistani culture or Muslim culture which I know isn't a monolith it is overall superior.

    Your experience seem to have been shaped by ignorant and ill-informed people, as for your statement about "Caucasians" that's an entire racial group of people that spans countries and continents.

    Just look at Pakistan, poverty, illiteracy, endemic inbreeding, its a failing state/military dictatorship, 1000 people are murdered due to honor killing and has a gross human rights record. It has problems that simply aren't as prevalent or don't exist in the so called West.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cu...
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ne...
    http://www.hrw.org/asia/pakis...
    http://www.amnestyusa.org/our...

    You can look at the Human Development Index (designed by a Pakistani) or Freedom House and compare them to Western nations and you'll see the difference is stark. It is far behind the West. This is not to say that there aren't things which the West can learn from though.
    (more)
  • Begum Z... Chaya2010 2012/07/28 03:46:07 (edited)
    Begum Zebunisah Hamidullah
    +1
    I guess you probably missed this in your mail box
    100 Women Who Shake Pakistan (2011) - Newsweek Pakistan
    www.newsweekpakistan.com/inde...
    From a pool of almost 350 women, here's our list of the 100 women who matter ... they have the most influence on their children," she told Newsweek Pakistan.
    http://newsweekpakistan.com/f...
  • Chaya2010 Begum Z... 2012/07/28 04:10:05
    Chaya2010
    +1
    I can't access the first link I've seen. I read the second link and think is a good start. I remember Pakistan had a female Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto although she was murdered by some Islamist extremist. Its worth mentioning this is the exception not the rule but I'll acknowledge your point and give credit where its due, "Pakistan’s constitution places no constraints on female participation in government, more than 50% MPs are women and law inforces that women must have equal opportunity in Parliament."
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wo...
    http://www.unesco.org/educati...
    "Official statistics released by the Federal Education Ministry of Pakistan give a desperate picture of education for all, espcially for girls. The overall literacy rate is 46 per cent, while only 26 per cent of girls are literate. Independent sources and educational experts, however, are sceptical. They place the overall literacy rate at 26 per cent and the rate for girls and women at 12 per cent, contending that the higher figures include people who can handle little more than a signature."
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/s...
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/a...
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/a...
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/s...
    I can't access the first link I've seen. I read the second link and think is a good start. I remember Pakistan had a female Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto although she was murdered by some Islamist extremist. Its worth mentioning this is the exception not the rule but I'll acknowledge your point and give credit where its due, "Pakistan’s constitution places no constraints on female participation in government, more than 50% MPs are women and law inforces that women must have equal opportunity in Parliament."
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wo...
    http://www.unesco.org/educati...
    "Official statistics released by the Federal Education Ministry of Pakistan give a desperate picture of education for all, espcially for girls. The overall literacy rate is 46 per cent, while only 26 per cent of girls are literate. Independent sources and educational experts, however, are sceptical. They place the overall literacy rate at 26 per cent and the rate for girls and women at 12 per cent, contending that the higher figures include people who can handle little more than a signature."
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/s...
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/a...
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/a...
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/s...
    (more)
  • Begum Z... Chaya2010 2012/07/28 05:16:07
  • Chaya2010 Begum Z... 2012/07/28 05:24:30
    Chaya2010
    Thanks I got it.
  • David H... Chaya2010 2012/07/28 08:03:19
    David Hussey
    +1
    Just look at the West, everything you say is equally true of it with the exception of honor killing... but as in the case of America, we find plenty of other reasons to murder each other. If one really wants to look into the poverty you speak of in the region, let us look at the behavior of the imperialist Western nations that have plundered their wealth and supported the worst of the worst with the puppets we put in place there. Gross human rights? WTF, currently there a bevy of so called 'civilized' Western nations who have armed mercenaries in their lands. Killing their people, including a disgusting proportion of innocent women and children. One has to wonder how many innocents are dead at the hands of your inbreeding Queen's 'honorable' crusaders.

    Yes, let us look at Pakistan. For God forbid we have to look at ourselves.
  • Chaya2010 David H... 2012/07/28 13:43:48
    Chaya2010
    If you had read what I had posted carefully you would have noticed I wrote, "Western culture is far from perfect and is a work in progress however in comparison to Pakistani culture or Muslim culture which I know isn't a monolith it is overall superior." Obviously people murder each other across the cultural, national, gender, race, ethnic, religious and continental divide; its a given a rather a moot point.

    Most if not all civilizations throughout history have been "imperialist" and "plundered wealth" by murdering/subjugating weaker countries. This is true for the Islam one only needs to read how Islam was spread and the deaths and expansionism in its name.

    You had to go back thousands of years to the Crusades which were ironically a response to Muslim expansionism. You omit that today currently mainstream Christianity and Islam have reformed to the point mainstream Islam hasn't and is unlikely to. The latter is the least benign of the Abrahamic faiths.

    Due to national interest amongst other things indeed Western nations have supported some of the worst regimes. It was the West that gave in respect to the Arab world the know-how to drill and refine the oil in the ground, it left a legacy for things like education, technology, infrastructure to places like India that stand till t...









    If you had read what I had posted carefully you would have noticed I wrote, "Western culture is far from perfect and is a work in progress however in comparison to Pakistani culture or Muslim culture which I know isn't a monolith it is overall superior." Obviously people murder each other across the cultural, national, gender, race, ethnic, religious and continental divide; its a given a rather a moot point.

    Most if not all civilizations throughout history have been "imperialist" and "plundered wealth" by murdering/subjugating weaker countries. This is true for the Islam one only needs to read how Islam was spread and the deaths and expansionism in its name.

    You had to go back thousands of years to the Crusades which were ironically a response to Muslim expansionism. You omit that today currently mainstream Christianity and Islam have reformed to the point mainstream Islam hasn't and is unlikely to. The latter is the least benign of the Abrahamic faiths.

    Due to national interest amongst other things indeed Western nations have supported some of the worst regimes. It was the West that gave in respect to the Arab world the know-how to drill and refine the oil in the ground, it left a legacy for things like education, technology, infrastructure to places like India that stand till this very day. Of course there were many atrocious things, that isn't my contention.

    The point is using objective and measurable indicators on the whole Western culture is by far superior to Islamic culture which I've stated isn't a monolith. I've used things like the HDI and Freedom House as indicators, human rights, democracy/democratic institutions, rule of law, freedom of press, speech things like judicial transparency, women's rights, minority rights: religious, racial, sex, ethnic, religious/non-religious rights are all overall better in the West than in any Muslim or non-Western country with the perhaps exception of Japan.

    "currently there a bevy of so called 'civilized' Western nations who have armed mercenaries in their lands. Killing their people, including a disgusting proportion of innocent women and children. " - please name and provide a citation, name these so called "crusades" and "mercenaries?" If you are speaking about in war, yes its sad it is not the same as deliberately targeting innocent people as is the case with Islamist terrorists nor is it done in the name of a religion.

    Whilst you can flippantly write the British Royal Family are inbred (I'm not disagreeing) inbreeding is not endemic in British culture with the exception of Pakistanis Muslims in Britain who marry their first cousins at a rate of 55% criminally causing serious genetic illnesses and death to their innocent children or how prevalent it is throughout the Arab world. You are using a historic example as if its a norm when inbreeding is prevalent in some Muslim countries. There is a huge difference.

    The difference is Western countries/cultures are evolving. Some of these Muslim countries due to their religion/Sharia/culture still: stone women to death, require women to have four witnesses to prove rape, make a woman's testimony worth half a man, has less inheritance/custody rights than men, kill people for leaving Islam or for blasphemy, execute people for "sorcery" and "witchcraft." amputate limbs off of thieves, have cultural (not religious practices) of Female Genital Mutilation. That is simply barbaric, primitive and inferior. Point to a single Western country (even culturally Western country) that isn't better to any of the 56 Muslim nations on the whole.

    It appears you are making some sort of erroneous moral equivalence. I'm not a cultural relativist our cultures are not all as valid and equal as others some (Western culture) broadly speaking is demonstrably better.
    (more)
  • David H... Chaya2010 2012/07/28 17:54:23
    David Hussey
    You claim that the West is still evolving while the Muslim countries are not. Perhaps you might consider that we in the West do not allow for it. Look at the case of Iraq. 20 odd years back, Iraq was a very progressive Muslim nation. A nation where there was good education available to any who wanted it, including women, Where women were not only allowed to participate in society but actively encouraged to do so. Now, thanks to our 'civilized; intervention, they have been thrown back centuries and delivered into the hands of regressionist sectarians. And please don't even give me the BS about the 'evil Saddam' had to be stopped because he invaded Kuwait. We loved the guy when he was invading Iran. We can now also look at Libya. Another secular and quite progressive Muslim state. Another one that we have decided must be turned over to those who wish to impose the very things you denounce Muslims for. And why? Certainly not out of any compassion for the oppressed people of Libya, but simply because it became politically expedient to do so and weve gotten ridden of a leader who was not under our thumb.

    The only real difference between them and us is that they perpetrate their atrocities on their own people. We perpetrate our atrocities on others. You ask about mercenaries? Come on...



    You claim that the West is still evolving while the Muslim countries are not. Perhaps you might consider that we in the West do not allow for it. Look at the case of Iraq. 20 odd years back, Iraq was a very progressive Muslim nation. A nation where there was good education available to any who wanted it, including women, Where women were not only allowed to participate in society but actively encouraged to do so. Now, thanks to our 'civilized; intervention, they have been thrown back centuries and delivered into the hands of regressionist sectarians. And please don't even give me the BS about the 'evil Saddam' had to be stopped because he invaded Kuwait. We loved the guy when he was invading Iran. We can now also look at Libya. Another secular and quite progressive Muslim state. Another one that we have decided must be turned over to those who wish to impose the very things you denounce Muslims for. And why? Certainly not out of any compassion for the oppressed people of Libya, but simply because it became politically expedient to do so and weve gotten ridden of a leader who was not under our thumb.

    The only real difference between them and us is that they perpetrate their atrocities on their own people. We perpetrate our atrocities on others. You ask about mercenaries? Come on buddy, you cannot be oblivious to the tens of thousands of 'security contractors' weve got scattered across the Middle East. Armed thugs who are not bound by any laws. And for that matter, every one of the damned soldiers over there are mercenaries. Non of them drafted, and none of them defending anything. perhaps you just don't know what a mercenary is.

    Can you cite any credible source for your "55% of Pakistanis marry their 1st cousins"? I don't believe it for one second, that certainly is not the case for Pakistanis living in my country, and make no mistake there are many here. Also, you might wish to look to rates of incest in parts of America before you go claiming this is a 'historic' occurrence in the West.

    Look, I'm not trying to defend the poor behavior of anyone. But its not our business to impose our standards onto others and if we would just leave them to sort out their own affairs they will rid themselves of the more negative aspects of their culture. Your presumption that they never will is nothing but arrogance and prejudice. Christianity has a 5-600 year head start on Islam in weeding out its cultural failings, look at where it was 5-600 years ago and you'll find we were no better. And as far as how our society views and treats other peoples around the world, the last Godamned thing we need is for everyone else to begin to act as we 'civilized; people do. They may be better of for it, but you sure as hell will suffer for it, as we make billions of people worldwide suffer for our luxurious existence.
    (more)
  • Chaya2010 David H... 2012/07/28 18:51:31
    Chaya2010
    "You claim that the West is still evolving while the Muslim countries are not. " - no that's not what I wrote.

    Look at Iraq, WMD's used on the Kurds in Halabjah, his own people, his own Muslims, so much for the ummah. He decimated the Marsh Arabs, he invaded sovereign Muslim Kuwait which begged the West for intervention, he killed, tortured and imprisoned thousands of his own people. The mass graves prove this.

    Yes Saddam was a Western stooge but he got out of line. Had he listened he would still be in power today. Its his fault Iraq is the way it is. And look not with democracy they are killing each other on a daily basis. Muslims or at least some don't ever take responsibility or ownership and blame everything and everyone but themselves or religion (generally speaking).

    Again it national interest, he was a bad person but the Wests bad person. He was too stupid and deluded to comply.

    Have you forgotten it was with Arab-Muslim consent and tacit approval as well as the Libyan people why we helped them. Yet the Arabs never help their own and when the west does when asked by either the governments or people as is the case in Libya you still complain. Never have I heard a single Muslim organisation, government or Muslim for that matter thank the West when in invaded a Christian coun...



























    "You claim that the West is still evolving while the Muslim countries are not. " - no that's not what I wrote.

    Look at Iraq, WMD's used on the Kurds in Halabjah, his own people, his own Muslims, so much for the ummah. He decimated the Marsh Arabs, he invaded sovereign Muslim Kuwait which begged the West for intervention, he killed, tortured and imprisoned thousands of his own people. The mass graves prove this.

    Yes Saddam was a Western stooge but he got out of line. Had he listened he would still be in power today. Its his fault Iraq is the way it is. And look not with democracy they are killing each other on a daily basis. Muslims or at least some don't ever take responsibility or ownership and blame everything and everyone but themselves or religion (generally speaking).

    Again it national interest, he was a bad person but the Wests bad person. He was too stupid and deluded to comply.

    Have you forgotten it was with Arab-Muslim consent and tacit approval as well as the Libyan people why we helped them. Yet the Arabs never help their own and when the west does when asked by either the governments or people as is the case in Libya you still complain. Never have I heard a single Muslim organisation, government or Muslim for that matter thank the West when in invaded a Christian country to save the lives of thousands of Bosnian Muslims. This was in Europe. The west gives billions to the Muslim world, tens of millions of Muslims have flood Europe and are freer in the West than in ANY of the 56 Muslim countries. Yet you moan about invasion of your lands, occupation. You're in our lands and cause a lot of trouble when the numbers rise, have little respect for the host majority country generally speaking.

    Libya that sneakily had nuclear weapons, that armed and funded terrorists like the IRA that killed over 1000 British people over a thirty year period, that blew up Pan AM flights killing hundreds over lockerbie. Gadhaffi was an international problem and when he started to act normally the West welcomed him. It was Muslim Arabs that called and started that change. Do omit these key facts.


    "Can you cite any credible source for your "55% of Pakistanis marry their 1st cousins"? " - I can cite source after source that will make your head spin and I will.

    "The only real difference between them and us is that they perpetrate their atrocities on their own people. We perpetrate our atrocities on others. " - this is because either they militarily or logistically can't it not because of lack of intent as when given the opportunity they export their brand of usually religiously/culturally based ignorance across the globe.

    The West is by far superior to Pakistan or any Islamic nation. Point to a single of the 56 Muslim nations that are an example of objectively and measurably better than Western nations overall?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cu...
    Prof Steve Jones, one of Britain’s most eminent scientists, has warned that the level of inbreeding among the nation’s Muslims is endangering the health of future generations"
    " “Bradford is very inbred. There is a huge amount of cousins marrying each other there.” Research in Bradford has found that babies born to Pakistani women are twice as likely to die in their first year as babies born to white mothers, with genetic problems linked to inbreeding identified as a “significant” cause.
    Studies have found that within the city, more than 70 per cent of marriages are between relations, with more than half involving first cousins."
    http://www.councilofexmuslims...
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/he...
    http://avisen.dk/faetter-kusi...
    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/0...
    http://jyllands-posten.dk/dit...
    http://europenews.dk/en/node/...


    There's more the epidemic of Pakistani Muslim rape gangs targeting mainly white minor girls and not Muslim ones British politicians have complained the police covered it up, the rate is much higher and prevalent than in any other group.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ne...
    http://www.theweek.co.uk/poli...
    http://india.nydailynews.com/...
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/ne...

    That's just weasel speak there have and always will be people fortunate and less fortunate. I don't suffer from white guilt. They can and have opportunities to better themselves. Don't leftists say we're all equal and have the same potential? Either the "billions" who I'm not responsible for whoever they are are supposed to be treated normally or they are supposed to be patronized. Can't have it both ways. Oh then there's the matter of billions the West gives and for what? You actually think its better for parts of an inferior culture to continue. That is morally indefensible.
    (more)
  • David H... Chaya2010 2012/07/28 20:40:48
  • Chaya2010 David H... 2012/07/28 22:30:47
    Chaya2010
    "it is still wrong to tackle the problem on racial and ethnic lines. " - where have I even mentioned race or ethnicity? You'll find nowhere. "To cite specific groups is inherently racist and is actually counterproductive to the goal of eliminating the offending behavior" - where have I cited this Pakistanis are a nation, not a race let alone an distinct ethnic group the point that is its cultural and due to their Islam.

    "To cite specific groups is inherently racist " - Again these are unique and disproportionate crimes with in this demographic. Facts aren't racist anymore than saying more blacks in the UK commit street robberies or more white men tend to commit so called "white collar fraud.." They are facts and I will be mealymouthed about it.

    One of the reasons Gadhaffi was welcomed back into the international community is because he gave evidence of his programs the world did not know. This isn't speculation this again is an irrefutable fact.
    "Mr Blair defends his decision to embrace Gaddafi by trumpeting the idea that he forced the dictator to give up his WMD programme.
    His spokesman said earlier this week: ‘Mr Blair, in office, had been responsible for getting Gaddafi to give up his chemical and nuclear weapons programme and renounce terrorism.’
    Gaddafi agreed to destroy most...






































    "it is still wrong to tackle the problem on racial and ethnic lines. " - where have I even mentioned race or ethnicity? You'll find nowhere. "To cite specific groups is inherently racist and is actually counterproductive to the goal of eliminating the offending behavior" - where have I cited this Pakistanis are a nation, not a race let alone an distinct ethnic group the point that is its cultural and due to their Islam.

    "To cite specific groups is inherently racist " - Again these are unique and disproportionate crimes with in this demographic. Facts aren't racist anymore than saying more blacks in the UK commit street robberies or more white men tend to commit so called "white collar fraud.." They are facts and I will be mealymouthed about it.

    One of the reasons Gadhaffi was welcomed back into the international community is because he gave evidence of his programs the world did not know. This isn't speculation this again is an irrefutable fact.
    "Mr Blair defends his decision to embrace Gaddafi by trumpeting the idea that he forced the dictator to give up his WMD programme.
    His spokesman said earlier this week: ‘Mr Blair, in office, had been responsible for getting Gaddafi to give up his chemical and nuclear weapons programme and renounce terrorism.’
    Gaddafi agreed to destroy most of his weapons of mass destruction in 2003 as part of moves to bring Libya, then a pariah state, in from the cold."
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ne...
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/0...
    "In late 2009, the Obama administration was leaning on Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi and his son Seif to allow the removal from Libya of the remnants of the country’s nuclear weapons program: casks of highly enriched uranium."
    http://www.globalsecurity.org...
    "The only nation with 'secret' nuclear weapons is Israel." - whilst it is widely considered that Israel has nuclear weapons it has maintain a policy of nuclear ambiguity. Due to this it has not signed the NPT and is under no obligation to. Furthermore, Israel has never threatened to use nuclear weapons, it has had many opportunities to use its alleged WMD's when it had been attacked by multiple Arab-Muslim armies and Arab-Muslims multiple times. Unlike North Korea, Pakistan it has never proliferated weapons to countries like Syria. Nor is it a rogue or failing state. You continue to compare the worst nations to the best. A prime example of the flaws of moral equivalence.
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibra...
    http://www.cfr.org/israel/isr...
    "It has said it would not be the first country in the Middle East to formally introduce nuclear weapons into the region. Israel, moreover, is on record as supporting a WMD-free Middle East. "

    My rebuttal was only to illustrate that Libya was a state sponsor of terrorism and to emphasise, irrespective of the points you raised regarding education that it was a hostile actor, trainer and sponsor of terrorists like the IRA which killed and was considered one of the biggest threats to the outside world/West. I went on to further counter the intervention in Libya was sanctioned by the Arab League and the people. Making your point about the West as somehow war mongering factually inaccurate. The death of innocent people happen in war. Making that point moot, since war isn't a science and in war conflict people die.

    Again, you mentioned Iraq and the society pre-invasion. I stated he used WMD's on his own people the Kurds in Halabjah, he decimated the Marsh Arabs, tortured/imprisoned and had mass graves, invaded a sovereign nation, Kuwait that asked for US help not the other way around. That hardly sounds a Utopian society Iraq was a tyranny. Saddam was told to leave office he refused when G W Bush instructed him to. He admitted that he lied about WMD's because he feared Iran. These are key points you omit. Hence there was the context for the war. Hindsight is a funny thing and not the topic but the blame lies with him.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisd...
    "In the 1988 poison gas attack by the Iraqi armed forces in which 5,000 people died."
    http://www.brookesnews.com/06...
    http://www.reuters.com/articl...
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/pol...
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/pr...
    "Downing Street has admitted to The Observer that repeated claims by Tony Blair that '400,000 bodies had been found in Iraqi mass graves' is untrue, and only about 5,000 corpses have so far been uncovered."
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
    http://www.hrw.org/legacy/bac...
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wo...
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/ne...
    You are making strawman arguments/logical fallacies. Assuming British people/Western people did those things that was in the distant past. Saddam did it recently. The same for the gross human rights abuses across the Muslims world. Which is what I meant when I said Islamic/Muslim mainstream culture hasn't evolved or reformed as mainstream Western culture. This is current not in the past now. This isn't an opinion again these are facts. No white washing, side-stepping changes this.

    Again resorting to "should haves" and "what ifs" The fact is it exists? Its what should be done as it exists. That's the reality. If and buts don't cut it and least not with me. What do you suggest?

    "he started looking out for Iraqi interests ahead of Western interests. Kuwait was doing great harm to Iraq when they were invaded, and anyone who thinks our response would have been any different is simply delusional." - your hypocrisy and doubles standards are astounding. - I've proven the kind of character and regime there was, now you castigate the West but white wash his invasion of a sovereign state.

    " half million dead Iraqi children at the hands of the West's cruel and criminal sanctions (numbers openly admitted to by the Clinton administration) the death toll there seems rather trivial." - ask yourself why, who was responsible and the reason that is a sad result. Now what their excuse for killing each other on a daily basis?


    "You wish to shed yourself from any responsibility for the atrocities we commit. I'm happy for you that you have no conscience, but that doesn't relieve you of your responsibilities. We live in democracies, which means that we ARE responsible for all that is done in our name. The blood of innocents which we spill in great volumes is on your hands and mine. You may not be troubled by it, but I am." - What "atrocities" - name them? I certainly am not responsible for anybody but me and take responsibility for my decisions. That is asinine your opinion is not what a democracy is nor is your projection of your thoughts my responsibility. There are innocent people that die in conflict and war, it the nature of the beast. Its ones moral responsibility to intervene when atrocities take place and on the whole the west does a damn good job. From Sierra Leone to Bosnia, the aid, NGO's etc do a sterling job.

    Refusal doesn't change the reality that some cultures and countries are objectively superior to others.

    "What the West has is a greater level of power, and absolutely no restraint in applying that power." - were that the case the puny enemies the West faces would have been crushed and dominated long ago. This hasn't happened.

    Stronger nations have and will continue to exert influence over others, the fact that the West with all its faults is by far better than the other Islamic options which is the point. And to prove this one can use any objective, measure and indicator. I deal with facts and evidence idealism and suspending reality doesn't work.
    (more)
  • David H... Chaya2010 2012/07/29 01:26:47
  • Chaya2010 David H... 2012/07/29 02:07:10
  • David H... Chaya2010 2012/07/29 02:25:56
    David Hussey
    Take your "weasel speak" and stick it up your ass.
  • Chaya2010 David H... 2012/07/29 02:35:50
    Chaya2010
    I'll leave that which is for the rectum for those those like you that are full of the proverbial and experts in all things fecal, amateur.

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