KSM torture did not stop LA attack

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KSM torture did not stop LA attack

Posted April 23, 2009 17:56:59
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+22 raves

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Ever since the revelations that the torture of Abu Zubaydah provided only false leads, conservatives have jumped on a Bush-era memo claiming that torture of KSM stopped an attack in LA. This is false, and easily proven so.

According to the Bush White House, the mastermind of that attack was arrested in February 2002 . They confirmed this again in a fact sheet . All well and good.

KSM was arrested on March 1, 2003 . How is it possible that torture done over a year after plot was broken up and the mastermind was arrested stopped that exact same plot?

(Links stolen from Yglesias: http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/ )

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+8 raves gfreeman~American Atheist~ April 23, 2009 20:11:29

I'm saying that the CIA has perfected time travel.
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+2 raves
Zuggi to TinCanS... April 24, 2009 05:46:11

Using standard interrogation techniques which have been proven to work better than torture.
TinCanS... to Zuggi April 24, 2009 17:55:14

What? Like inviting them to lunch, giving them a big smile and hand shake and saying "We need to talk."
patt to TinCanS... April 24, 2009 21:54:06

Zuggi, good you quite this thread... I should have as well.
Lizard to TinCanS... April 25, 2009 05:18:54

moderated...
VICTORIA to TinCanS... April 25, 2009 18:53:42

( JPRA, the SERE parent agency, which provided advice on torture techniques also warned against their use)

The JPRA attachment said the key deficiency of physical or psychological duress is the reliability and accuracy of the information gained. “A subject in pain may provide an answer, any answer, or many answers in order to get the pain to stop,” it said.

In conclusion, the document said, “the application of extreme physical and/or psychological duress (torture) has some serious operational deficits, most notably the potential to result in unreliable information.” The word “extreme” is underlined.

http://psychoanalystsopposewa...
patt to TinCanS... April 24, 2009 21:53:03

There are sanctioned methods that have been proven more reliable. Water boarding is not reliable.
VICTORIA to TinCanS... April 25, 2009 18:55:41 (edited)

http://www.washingtonpost.com...

It is only 2 pages.

JPRA MEMO detailing the ineffectiveness of torutre in eliciting information and actionable intelligence
herb to TinCanS... April 24, 2009 05:06:03

Have you read all the released documents?
TinCanS... to herb April 24, 2009 05:57:15

What do you want me to comment on that is in the documents?
+2 raves
Zuggi to TinCanS... April 24, 2009 06:02:34

The fact that

1) The CIA memo you were talking about discusses how interrogation of KSM stopped a plot to attack the Library Tower in LA.
2) The mastermind of that plot was arrested in 2002, breaking up that plot. [According to Bush White House briefings]
3) KSM was arrested in 2003.
4) It is impossible for information gained in 2003 to have stopped an attack that was broken up in 2002.
TinCanS... to Zuggi April 24, 2009 18:07:00

The document I am talking about is "Rulings of Interrogation Techniques." There are additional memos that have not been released that show what interrogations yield success. The only way we can make this an honest debate is for your president to release these memos. So far this has not happened and mabe should not happen in the interest of national security. As for the dates of 2002 and 2003 I would refer you to the capture of Abu Zubayda. Zubayda was first interrogated in Pakistan.
Zuggi to TinCanS... April 24, 2009 18:11:24

Abu Zubadayah was only involved in this tangentially; CNS was pushed to ask whether the memo was still considered accurate because it came out in the Washington Post that no accurate information had been gotten from waterboarding AZ.

The dates of 2002 and 2003 are regarding the capture of the mastermind of the LA plot and the capture of KSM, respectively.
patt to TinCanS... April 24, 2009 21:52:05

Water boarding is fairly recent. Water torture is something else. Are you sure that in the Korean war it was not actually the infamous "Chinese water torture"? Linguistically, it would be easy to confuse. But if to you water boarding is not monstrous, go sign up for that unpleasant event and then come back and tell us about it.
VICTORIA to TinCanS... April 25, 2009 18:59:06

"What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight… is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect. While we are warriors, we are also all human beings" -- General David Petraeus May 10, 2007
+2 raves
right this time April 23, 2009 23:45:50

So much for the vaunted liberal media. This is a bombshell that ought to be given major coverage by the news.
+2 raves
herb to right t... April 24, 2009 00:20:14

... but it won't
+1 raves
Lizard to herb April 25, 2009 05:22:13 (edited)

moderated...
TinCanS... to right t... April 24, 2009 05:59:52

It is given major coverage and will probably be covered all day tomorrow. If it is not reported by MSNBC, I am sure you will know why.
+3 raves
duminda723 April 23, 2009 23:29:49

Thanks for posting this. The CIA is just trying to protect it's own ass by saying they were justified. I'm sympathetic to the actual agents but these officials who sanctioned this need to be nailed to the wall.
+4 raves
Congrats Obama! April 23, 2009 23:00:10

We are the biggest most hatest hypocrites in the world. We bluster about human rights when its convenient but we tortue humans for our own interests. We signed a Geneva Convention Resolution we need to live up to it.