KSM torture did not stop LA attack

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KSM torture did not stop LA attack

Posted April 23, 2009 17:56:59
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+22 raves

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Ever since the revelations that the torture of Abu Zubaydah provided only false leads, conservatives have jumped on a Bush-era memo claiming that torture of KSM stopped an attack in LA. This is false, and easily proven so.

According to the Bush White House, the mastermind of that attack was arrested in February 2002 . They confirmed this again in a fact sheet . All well and good.

KSM was arrested on March 1, 2003 . How is it possible that torture done over a year after plot was broken up and the mastermind was arrested stopped that exact same plot?

(Links stolen from Yglesias: http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/ )

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+8 raves gfreeman~American Atheist~ April 23, 2009 20:11:29

I'm saying that the CIA has perfected time travel.
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Zuggi to Art April 29, 2009 16:37:23

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything at all.
Boulder... to Art April 29, 2009 16:34:31 (edited)

Barack Obama, it seems to me, has bent over backwards to to be as even handed as possible in matters of what the Bush Administration may or may not have done that was illegal. In any case it is not legally in his hands. It will take a prosector of some sort to take any legal action. Since no one has been charged with anything yet, why are you so worried? And Zuggi is absolutely 100% correct in stating that charging and giving people the full benefit of the legal system has NOTHING to do with revenge, but that it is justce. Using the legal system for revenge or twisting it to use for one's political reasons is definitely "Banana Republic Justice", not justice at all. It's not even a legal system! Now Bill Clinton DID lie about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky. That was illegal. He was duly charged (impeached) but apparently not found guilty of "high crimes and misdemeanours" necessary to convict and force him out of office. PLEASE READ YOU CONSTITUTION IF YOU OWN ONE!!!!!!!! If you don't, Google it. You can easily print it out or find a number of websites that will send you one for FREEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
As for right to life, that is not the subject under discussion here. I've noticed that when some of you righties who really don't understand history, the legal system, scien...

Barack Obama, it seems to me, has bent over backwards to to be as even handed as possible in matters of what the Bush Administration may or may not have done that was illegal. In any case it is not legally in his hands. It will take a prosector of some sort to take any legal action. Since no one has been charged with anything yet, why are you so worried? And Zuggi is absolutely 100% correct in stating that charging and giving people the full benefit of the legal system has NOTHING to do with revenge, but that it is justce. Using the legal system for revenge or twisting it to use for one's political reasons is definitely "Banana Republic Justice", not justice at all. It's not even a legal system! Now Bill Clinton DID lie about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky. That was illegal. He was duly charged (impeached) but apparently not found guilty of "high crimes and misdemeanours" necessary to convict and force him out of office. PLEASE READ YOU CONSTITUTION IF YOU OWN ONE!!!!!!!! If you don't, Google it. You can easily print it out or find a number of websites that will send you one for FREEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
As for right to life, that is not the subject under discussion here. I've noticed that when some of you righties who really don't understand history, the legal system, science, in other words reality, and therefore cannot answer a direct question or find themselves backed into a corner, have a real knack for changing the subject. No one ever said that liberals are never guilty of revenge as opposed to justice, and no, it is not right for anyone to use our justice system for revenge, no matter who you are, Liberals included!
(more)
Art to Zuggi April 26, 2009 10:01:44

Zuggi: "Because it takes a while to close it. It's going to be closed, and no terrorists will be released into the United States."

Ahem!

http://www.latimes.com/news/n...
Zuggi to Art April 26, 2009 14:16:50

It's been known for years that the Uighurs were not terrorists and held the United States in high regard.
Boulder... to Zuggi April 26, 2009 18:26:37

Zuggi, you are great! Art, Uighurs come from this planet.
Art to Zuggi April 27, 2009 07:46:10

>It's been known for years that the Uighurs were not terrorists

So the LA Times is a right-wing propaganda organ?

So we release them into the USA and they attack Chinese assets in the USA. So the USA becomes the next enablers of terrorism...that's change alright.
+1 raves
TinCanSailor April 24, 2009 04:37:06

Before you make these kind of statements your should go to the newly released documents from the CIA that confirm all the accomplishments as a result of the interrogation techniques. Obama and you radical leftists have undermined the efforts and confidence of the CIA Interrogators. The loss of intelligence data is going to cause many lives to be lost and the blame will be squarly on your shoulders. The people that gathered intelligence should be praised and not condemned. They saved thousands of american lives under very adverse conditions. What if your son or daughter was killed in a terrorist attack that could have been thwarted with intelligence gathered by waterboarding. Would you think differently?
+2 raves
Zuggi to TinCanS... April 24, 2009 04:45:38

I was linking to those recently released documents. They claim that torture in 2003 stopped a terrorist attack in 2002. They're full of shit.
TinCanS... to Zuggi April 24, 2009 05:44:07

You are just putting spin on this. Figures don't lie but liers can figure.
+4 raves
Zuggi to TinCanS... April 24, 2009 05:45:11

How are simple facts spin?

You're right that figures don't lie. Something done in 2003 cannot stop an attack that was stopped in 2002.
VICTORIA to Zuggi April 25, 2009 19:01:14

Here is the JPRA memo that invalidates torture as a valid option.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
Boulder... to Zuggi April 26, 2009 18:48:04 (edited)

Keep it up if you have the energy, Zuggi, but they don't like facts. Maybe, as GWB once inplied, if you say it often enough, it will sink in but I wouldn't hold my breath! As you say, the timeline is out there for all to see who care to look, but these folks you are trying to convince remind me of someone else on SH the other day who claimed that the Book of Revelation predicted that the antichrist would be a charming man in his forties with a Muslim background, name or something Muslim without taking into account that Islam did not exist until maybe 4 centuries (at least three depending on when Revelation was written) after Revelation was written. Just couldn't let the facts get in the way....................!!!!!!...
+2 raves
flaca to TinCanS... April 24, 2009 20:59:57

you've just proved Zuggi's claims. Figures (and dates) don't lie.
Boulder... to TinCanS... April 26, 2009 18:41:05

OK TinCan, can't help but ask you if YOU know what Winston's job was in "1984"? You'd be as good as Art at it!
Fini!
Boulder... to TinCanS... April 26, 2009 18:38:39

TinCanSailor: the stock reply: what if it were one of your loved ones, etc.? That's called revenge, not justice. I'd probably be inclined to waterboard, or lynch or worse, but I am not the law. It's the law, the real law, not some twisted CYA version of it, that makes a country like ours even possible, not your or my desires to go out and rip the throat out of the first person who seemed guilty TO US. You'd never make it onto a jury (THANK GOD), but you are probably one of those who consider jury duty an imposition anyway. All that legal gobbledy-gook just gets in the way, right!? Ditch the Constitution and all that flows from it. There were CIA interrrogators who walked away from torturing.
Gotta quit. I was having a nice peaceful Sunday reading about swine flu.
Mattynr April 24, 2009 02:08:16

action .............>reaction

9/11 was a level of major intensity...... and the level
of reaction was on the same level of intensity.

Their mission was to prevent another attact knowing
that the possibilty was real.
Time was of an essence and the entire country was
on Alert, in Mourning and Shock.

Now, we are facing the secondary reactions to the
actions taken at a time of National Emergency.

We need to put everyting is a box of right and wrong.
It is all so complex and complicated and we just
can't justfy torutre as right.
It rips at our very moral fiber to accept torutre.

It is hard to judge the intensity and pressures at
the time, the safty of our Country was at risk.

It seem it is OK to accept
"Enchanced Interrogation"

What ever actions taken, it should be legal and
the accepted protocol, no matter what it is called.
+3 raves
herb April 24, 2009 00:26:55

I'm still revolted over the revelation of *how* we captured KSM.

Even if I could accept torturing people, there ought to be a line when it comes to tying boys (7 &11) and dumping ants on them until they where their father was hiding.
TinCanS... to herb April 24, 2009 04:54:46

You will find several people here on Soda Head that had experience with waterboarding while in the military in a training program. They have said it was very unpleasant and they would not want to do it again. However, it was not life threatening and very effective. I talked to a Korean War Veteran about 20 years ago that was a POW and had been waterboarded. He said he told the Chinese everything they wanted to hear knowing that the american people would understand and they did. He was welcomed home as a hero in a prisoner exchange. He also said waterboarding was very unpleasant but not life threatening. So, you are revolted over the "how" we captured KSM. The fact is, he was captured. Would you rather he escaped the US officials and was/has ploted another attack on the United States. It is ludicrous to think the CIA would tie up a boy of 7 and 11 and dump ants on them. That is a monsterous accusation and if you believe something like that would happen then you are as sick as a terrorist.
+5 raves
Zuggi to TinCanS... April 24, 2009 04:58:53 (edited)

My father was waterboarded as part of his survival training as well. It is torture; and yes, you will tell them what they want to hear. However, what they want to hear is not actual intelligence. It's bullshit.
TinCanS... to Zuggi April 24, 2009 05:45:33 (edited)

Tell me how you would gather intelligence from a suspected terrorist. Thank God your father did not have to use the training.