Jefferson wrote "that all men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence. If the implication from that is that all people should be treated equally, has America lived up to that credo?

I also believe we are equals at birth but, we may not be equals as adults. Most of our lot in life is the result of effort put forth and decisions we make. I did not have much growing up and I made poor decisions myself. I dropped out of school, drank a lot, and bounced from one low paying job to the next. When I started a family I decided I had to do better so I put my nose to the grind stone so to speak. I worked my way into a middle management position in a large power company. I know what can be done with determination and perseverance so I don't have much sympathy for the poor and I don't see why the money I earned for my family should be stolen away by the government and given to people I don't care about. I am a sovereign citizen, ( not one of those nuts that put wrongful leans on people's properties ) I mean that I feel responsible for myself and don't expect others to take care of or look out for me. I believe in self reliance and if you need help then it should be your family and friends that should help.

I appreciate your comments and your sentiments. Your story is not unlike mine in some ways. I worked full time through three years of undergrad (no loans) and then three years of grad school with very modest loans which I paid off early. I am quite thankful for the opportunity that the work and the loan provided. I believe strongly in self-reliance, and looking first to family and friends when asking or giving help to another. Still, I cannot relate completely to your dearth of sympathy for the poor. I look at others less fortunate and sometimes see a person with just poor character, other times I think "there but for the Grace of God, go I". Life has a particle of luck, or grace associated with it. But, I thank you for your opinion and participation in the poll.

Created equal , as in the rights endowed by the creator was the message.
No Nation has ever come closer to that ideal .

Yes, I suppose so. It is interesting he choose those words. Thanks for participating.

The Slaves were freed by bloodshed. What the slaves did for themselves was their fault. They pursued relying on the Old Massas who had been their Owners. They's hang black men, have the KKK kill them and a dozen more evil things, but The Blacks hung on to Massa. Now here we are 100 years plus and the Blacks are still poor and the few who have gotten out of the poverty cycle are being pulled back into it by their Welfare children
Plus they blame the Constitution instead of praising it. So shape up or to hell with you.

That quote is often used out of context, because in those days blacks were not considered "men". I think the quote refers more to social and economic classes among white people.

thanks for your reponse.

Of course we haven't "lived up to it". There are triumphs and tragedies throughout all of human history. But America has done a better job of it than any country/government before or since. And we still have more potential to do so than any country/government currently in power.

And I will take this opportunity to wish everyone a Happy Fourth of July, the beginning of equality in government.

Agreed. Thanks for your participation.

TJ is not saying we all are equal. We aren't. Most are smarter than me. Many are richer and so on. From birth my course is set, I was equal to all others. Now if I become say a felon? Hey I'm no longer equal to many as I can no longer vote. But who is responsible for that change. Lets say I don't work and live off the government. I'm poor. I am equal with a few but not all. How about if I'm rich?

thanks for responding. I agree with most of what you say, I may even refine it to say that Jefferson was implying equality within the framework of law or institutions of men.

Much better said. thanks.

Even God doesn't think we are equal. Only in his eyes

We try!

I think so too, and overall I think Americans have a sense of fairness which arises at least partially out of words of our founders, including Jefferson. thanks for participating

Don't do as I do, just do as I say. another conservative view has been proven dead wrong. Jefferson was just another hypocrite talking out of both sides of his mouth.

You think Thomas Jefferson was a conservative? Wow.

In this day the Conservatives (Tories) would have hung him from the nearest poplar tree if they had gotten their hands on him.

Compared to now they all were conservative. What left ideal do you think they would vote for. Killing babies? Welfair for able people? Higher Taxes? LMBO funny.

How about sedition, insurrection, revolution and a self governed society? These were far more liberal ideals at that time than are any of the items you mentioned today.

I respectfully disagree. Liberals have no desire to be free. Those in power make their stand by placating to the less fortunate they have their backs only to gain their support.
The revolution was all about leaving the grip of tyranny and excessive taxation, the liberal platform.

At the time all the states except RI I think had a state church. Not very Libby is it.

Oh I could go on.

The revolution was all about leaving the grip of tyranny (Tyranny doesn't mean not getting what you want by the way) but not about excessive taxation. In fact at the time of the Boston Tea Party almost all taxes had been rescinded. The famous quote "No taxation without Representation" meant exactly what it said. The Founding Fathers didn't object to taxation, in fact they recognized the necessity of it. What they objected to was not having a voice in the government which was levying the tax. (This by the way was a very liberal proposition) The Revolutionaries most certainly were the most liberal of all liberals in the history of the U.S. But I'm good with agreeing to amicably disagreeing. That is rare on SH.

You are close on one point by the way. Not all States had a State religion but at differing periods of time most of them did at least once, prior to the Revolution Most of them however did tolerate other religions by the mid 1700's. (sorry this is so disjointed I'm having seizures and am having trouble composing cognitive thoughts)

Nothing in the beginning of this country even remotely resembles Liberialism. As time passes we fall farther and farther left. I don't find anything the left does of any value. It's all about tearing down and lowering standards.
Here is a link to early state churchs. http://candst.tripod.com/cnst...

Again my friend. Try sedition, insurrection and revolution. Try demanding a voice in ones governance. At the time these were far more liberal than anything we are facing today on the national level. . I'm thinking perhaps you may not be thinking of "liberal" according to it's definition?

Libturd= riots and bricks through windows. Stomping feet and pounding fists. OW ugh!

Those involved in the Boston Tea Party paid for all the damage they did. It was not condoned.

I'm not sure what this has to do with our discussion so far. May I ask which dictionary definition of liberal you are using?

Okay I'm bored you win.

I am not sure the folks back then would have even known what you are talking about. "Liberal thought" was considered a good thing. Marx was not yet even born and there was not dichotomy as there is today between 'liberals' and 'conservatives' (the latter of whom at that time would have been considered in favor of the Crown, NOT the revolution). Who are you so pissed off at?

The views of these politicians change through the years just as sure as God made little green apples. even Mr. Roosevelt said there would be a chicken in every pot. and today Michael Savage, agrees that everybody needs a job. makes you wonder which political party shot the bear and which political party actually killed the darn thing. well, today I will be celebrating by independence and I do Appreciate your interest in my comment and my concern. everybody enjoy this holiday, I am fixing to go and drink some beer.

I think I will join you (well virtually anyway) Happy 4th!

I like the beer part, enjoying now as I type.

I thought I might hear this, started to point up the inconsistency but knew someone else would. Still, no Declaration, no country, no Civil War, no Emancipation, and so on....
thanks for your answer.

I'm happy to participate in the discussion, it's just that I am not really happy with the double standard right now. I was off of the computer for approximately 3 years. I have been out here in the real world I have witnessed some things going own that most people don't even know. today, I will be celebrating as I feel optimistic about the future of this country. many thanks and may peace be with you.

Look at al the bigotry Gays and Lesbians are currently facing. We are still narrow-minded and petty, believing we as individuals are somehow more worthy and deserving of personal freedom and respect than others.
Until we can all listen to the hopes/fears, wants/desires, and truthful life plans of everyone else, then we're just treading water in the same murky oceans of ignorance that our forefathers were trying to swim out of.

But, at least we aren't sinking, you have to admit that. nice comment!

True - it can always be worse. But that's great too, because then there's hope it can always be better!

Jefferson himself never lived up to what he wrote he owned slaves and never freed them, even his own children by a slave woman were never freed until after his death. His words were hypocrisy from day one.

True, but the nation had to begin somewhere and a lot of good followed. There would have been no cohesive nation without the compromises made by the founders, some of whom were squarely anti-slavery. great comment, thanks

The Declaration of Independence is merely a "Dear John" letter to the King of England. Its full of "Do as I say, not as I do's"

It cracks me up when people around here think its a law.

George Orwell summed it up.

"All animals are created equal but some are more equal than others" - Animal Farm, 1945

ahhhh, my favorite so far! Yes, he did. thanks for participating.