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Is there ANY evidence, OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE, of the existence of Jesus Christ, written while Jesus was supposedly alive, and where is it?

Foxhound BN0 2012/06/25 00:42:49
Yes. It is ____________
No.
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  • Clay Slayer 2012/06/25 00:50:46
    No.
    Clay Slayer
    +8
    Cases for Christ's existence have been made by some but never hold up to a simple fact check as shown below. Historically speaking the absolute lack of evidence for a figure of the said time period means one of two things; the figure was very insignificant or did not exist. As it stands there is absolutely no historical evidence for the figure Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph, thus there is no reason to suggest he ever existed.

    The reference to Jesus in "The Passing of Peregrinus" is describing what Christians believe in, it is NOT suggesting that these beliefs were true. The Passing of Peregrinus is also a satire, a work of fiction.

    • Lucian was a satirist, not a historian
    • Lucian was not born until 125 CE • Publius Cornelius Tacitus
    The reference to Jesus in "Annals XV.44" is describing what Christians believe in, it is NOT suggesting that these beliefs were true. Tacitus goes on to call this belief about Christus a "pernicious superstition."

    • Tacitus was not born until 56 CE
    • Annals XV.44 was not written until 115 CE • Suetonius
    Chapter 25 of a biography titled "The Life of Claudius" has one line that mentions "Chrestus" which is NOT a reference to Jesus Christ. This passage is also set during 50 CE, twenty years after Jesus' supposed death.

    • Suetonius was not...




    &&




































    Cases for Christ's existence have been made by some but never hold up to a simple fact check as shown below. Historically speaking the absolute lack of evidence for a figure of the said time period means one of two things; the figure was very insignificant or did not exist. As it stands there is absolutely no historical evidence for the figure Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph, thus there is no reason to suggest he ever existed.

    The reference to Jesus in "The Passing of Peregrinus" is describing what Christians believe in, it is NOT suggesting that these beliefs were true. The Passing of Peregrinus is also a satire, a work of fiction.

    • Lucian was a satirist, not a historian
    • Lucian was not born until 125 CE • Publius Cornelius Tacitus
    The reference to Jesus in "Annals XV.44" is describing what Christians believe in, it is NOT suggesting that these beliefs were true. Tacitus goes on to call this belief about Christus a "pernicious superstition."

    • Tacitus was not born until 56 CE
    • Annals XV.44 was not written until 115 CE • Suetonius
    Chapter 25 of a biography titled "The Life of Claudius" has one line that mentions "Chrestus" which is NOT a reference to Jesus Christ. This passage is also set during 50 CE, twenty years after Jesus' supposed death.

    • Suetonius was not born until 41 CE
    • "The Life of Claudius" was not written until 115 CE • Pliny the Younger
    The reference to Jesus in Pliny the Younger's writings corresponding with the emperor Trajan is describing what Christians in Asia Minor believe in, it is NOT suggesting that these beliefs were true.

    • Pliny the Younger was not born until 61 CE • Flavius Josephus
    The Antiquities of the Jews is NOT based on historical events. Right in the preface Josephus tells us that the history he is writing about is based on Hebrew scriptures and religious books. Hence why Jesephus' Antiquities not only mentions Jesus but also describes God's creation of the earth, Adam & Eve, Noah & the flood, the Tower of Babel, the 10 Plagues, and the parting of the sea.

    "Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study; for it will contain all our antiquities, and the constitution of our government, as interpreted out of the Hebrew Scriptures." "I shall now betake myself to the history before me, after I have first mentioned what Moses says of the creation of the world, which I find described in the sacred books after the manner following." - Antiquities of the Jews -- Preface

    • Josephus was not even born until 37 CE
    • Antiquities of the Jews was not written until 94 CE
    • Antiquities of the Jews is based on religious texts, not history.
    • Josephus was an orthodox Jew and never believed in a savior named Jesus Christ • He Was Influential
    Just because a figure is influential does not suggest they existed, all mythological gods were very influential. Like some Christians many followers of other gods were willing to die for what they thought was true. The terrorists of 9-11 died for the influential lie about 72 virgins in paradise. • We can't know if anyone existed that long ago
    The absolute lack of historical evidence for Jesus Christ is obviously a major problem for anyone looking for a reason to think he actually existed. To ignore this problem apologists claim that we cannot expect to have any evidence for a person who lived that long ago. That claim is far from true. The 1st century was a well documented time and we have a great deal of historical evidence for figures who actually existed.

    Take Julius Caesar for example. We have writings by him, and writings about him by both friends and enemies written during his life time. We have contemporary sculptures and other artwork depicting his image and various artifacts confirming his life and death. We have a known year of birth and a known day of death. We have a rather complete history of Caesar yet no such evidence is found in relation to Jesus Christ, who is said to have lived decades later. We don't even have a known last name for Jesus. • Shroud of Turin
    The Shroud of Turin is a forgery. After independent analysis by the University of Arizona, Oxford, and Swiss Federal Institute of Technology all results date the shroud to be from between 1260 and 1390 CE. Besides, even if it was from the wrappings of a dead body during the 1st century this would still not be evidence that Jesus Christ existed. It would only be evidence that a person died during the 1st century. • Letters to Abgarus
    The "Letters of Abgarus and Jesus" claimed by some apologists to be written by Jesus to the Abgar V are taken as forgeries, not authentic, by historians. The known copies of these letters were written long after the time Jesus supposedly lived. Also the letter forged as Jesus mirrors passages from the Diatessaron (c. 150-160 CE) and not the earlier versions of the gospels. • The Talmud
    Some apologists claim that the Talmud (c. 200-500 CE) is evidence that even non-Christians claimed Jesus existed. Despite claims by Josh McDowell there is NO specific reference to Jesus anywhere in the Talmud and there is no denying that its authors didn't believe in Jesus' messiahship or divinity. • The Gospels
    The gospels are not eyewitness accounts and were written 36-65 years after Jesus' supposed death. None of the writers claim to be eyewitnesses, Matthew is written completely in third person (e.g. Matthew 9:9), and the author of John claims he is not the disciple John (John 21:24). The followers of Jesus were Aramaic speaking peasants from Galilee, lower class men that are not educated and could not have written the gospels in Greek. All the gospels were written anonymously and the names Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were simply applied to the unnamed writings by later readers and named after characters in the stories.
    Acts 4:13 even says Peter and John were uneducated and ignorant men. • Jesus Family Tomb
    Some claim a tomb found in Talpiot is the tomb of Jesus and his family because two of the ten ossuaries contain the names "Jesua, son of Joseph" and "Mariamene e Mara." Mary, Joseph, and Jesua were very common names in 1st century Israel so there is nothing significant about the inscriptions. Even most apologists agree that there is no reason to think this tomb is related to Jesus Christ particularly since it was the tomb of a wealthy family that was not from Nazareth. • Oral Tradition
    Some apologists claim that there is no contemporary evidence for Jesus because during that time people only shared stories verbally. It is true, there was an oral tradition among story tellers and the sharing of stories. Historians on the other hand documented events as they occurred. If Jesus was a historical figure and not just a character in a story there would be contemporary writings about him.





    In the decades around 1CE it was quite common for regular humans to have followers and be worshiped as the savior predicted by scriptures. It would be no big deal if there was evidence to suggest that Jesus was an actual person with a following like many of the other alleged saviors and miracle workers. However, as described below, there are several reasons to suggest that Jesus was not an actual historic figure which would explain why there is no record of him or his supposed following.

    Paul Created Jesus
    It is clear from a comparison of history and Paul's writings that Jesus was not a historical figure but rather a figure of Paul's imagination. History shows us that prior to Paul there is no mentioning or awareness of Jesus and that all later stories of Jesus are derived from areas where Paul made his stories known. Paul in his writings tells us that his knowledge of Jesus is based on his interpretation of scripture and not from another person. He also tells us that no one, aside from those who gained their knowledge from scripture, knew of the events related to Jesus until he personally shared the story with the public.
    » Learn More
    "Historical Jesus"
    Although Jesus was not originally based on a real person some later aspects were. Certain stories in the Gospels suggest that some aspects of Jesus' life were loosely inspired by legends of an actual person or persons. Historians have dubbed this person(s) "Historical Jesus" because an actual name is not known. Outside of scripture there is nothing to suggest that this person(s) existed but certain scriptural writings about Jesus, such as the resurrection story, sound more like they were based on a real life regular human being than a demi-god figure.
    » Learn More
    Disagreements In the Gospels
    Even though the gospels were not written independently of each other they still contain various discrepancy. Many contradictions are related to simple details such as the color Jesus' robe and who or what as at his tomb. Other contradictions are more dramatic such as Luke and Matthew placing the story of Jesus' birth during two separate historical events that are 10 years apart. It is these sort of minor and dramatic discrepancies that we would not see in historical documentations of a real person and exactly what we would expect to see if the stories are just retellings of mythology and legends.
    » Learn More
    Christian Apologists
    Apologists exist because Jesus didn't. If there actually were historical evidence for Jesus Christ then Christians would look to historians to support their claims. There would be no need for the existence of Christian apologists like Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel who make up claims despite historical evidence to give people what they want to hear, not what is true. Such apologists make a great deal of money selling such books while taking advantage of their followers. To the left are rebuttals to a few dishonest claims that apologists make a living off of.
    » Learn More
    (more)

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Opinions

  • Foxhound BN0 2013/01/28 13:31:54 (edited)
    No.
    Foxhound BN0
    I have not been able to find any, and and Jesus was dead before any of the sources cited here were even born. All of the people who said yes were too lazy to check. The vote should be 100 pct no.
  • jonathan.drouin.75 2013/01/28 09:39:05
    No.
    jonathan.drouin.75
    +1
    Not sure if it confirms Jesus existence but, despite the fact that there is no recorded evidences (outside of Josephus) of the High Priest Caiaphas, they still ended up finding the tomb of his family and the body of a 60 year old male who could very well be Caiaphas himself.
  • art1ej 2012/06/29 08:10:58 (edited)
    No.
    art1ej
    +1
    Jesus isn't in any history books because he never happened....only delusional people think otherwise....
    No one can die & come back to life...no one can do that now & they sure as hell couldn't do it back then.....
  • jonatha... art1ej 2013/01/28 09:47:32
    jonathan.drouin.75
    It's about wether a man named Jesus Christ ever existed or not.

    It's not about whether Jesus re-incarnated or not.

    He could have existed without ever re-incarnating. He could have been a very good illusionist too and would of fooled alot of people in his time. All the hocus pocus stuff he has done could have been added through time to embellish his story. He might also have never existed, but it is entirely independant of what supernatural stuff he might have done.
  • jonatha... art1ej 2013/06/24 23:22:53
    jonathan.drouin.75
    Because obviously, the Bible has to be taken for face value, amiright?
  • art1ej jonatha... 2013/06/27 17:24:45
    art1ej
    Its taken by stupidty
  • \V/ 2012/06/28 19:04:39
  • Carter 2012/06/27 21:40:08
    Yes. It is ____________
    Carter
    If you really want to know, why not ask him?
  • Foxhoun... Carter 2012/06/27 22:05:47 (edited)
    Foxhound BN0
    Because, if there was a jesus, he's long dead.
  • Carter Foxhoun... 2012/07/09 05:57:22
    Carter
    Really? But I was only talking to him this morning.
  • Foxhoun... Carter 2012/07/09 11:14:40
    Foxhound BN0
    Yeah, I was talking to Einstein this morning. We had a good time talking about the Higgs boson. lol
    crazy
  • sam123 2012/06/27 21:27:43
    Yes. It is ____________
    sam123
    +2
    yes , book of barnabars
  • Foxhoun... sam123 2012/06/27 22:12:07
    Foxhound BN0
    Thank you. I will read about it.
  • sam123 Foxhoun... 2012/06/27 22:20:07
    sam123
    +1
    with great pleasure Fox .. and please do not hesitate to ask any question i will be more than happy to answer you if i know the answer .

    kind regards
  • ehrhornp 2012/06/27 16:38:59
    Yes. It is ____________
    ehrhornp
    One must remember that this is 2000 years ago. But I believe there is evidence. I talked about this with a Jewish friend and he said that there is clear evidence of Jesus in some Jewish writing. Forgot what it was and never read it. I am sure the actual event was far different than what is written in the bible.
  • Thank you but no... 2012/06/27 10:08:02
    No.
    Thank you but no...
    +1
    There are none that you could call unimpeachable, but the region was awash with millennial preachers at around that time, including one "Judas of Galilee". I suspect that some of these became conflated.
  • abycinnamon BN-1 2012/06/26 20:00:15
    No.
    abycinnamon BN-1
    +3
    In so far as I know there is no unimpeachable evidence for the existence of jesus. He is mentioned by a couple of roman historians, but they are much later than he was, and they are known for their liberties with the truth.

    What I would like to know is whether or not there are contemporary records of censi, of legal procedings, or other things that mention other people and exclude jesus - as that would be informative, and I don't know that answer.
  • Flash,aka,Mr.Lightning 2012/06/26 12:28:01
    Yes. It is ____________
    Flash,aka,Mr.Lightning
    +1
    Just by listening to Jesus' enemies and outsiders, we can put together the following profile on Christ and his influence; the sum of which positively affirms the believability of the Bible and deity of his person:

    Jesus was a wise man and was called the Christ or Messiah, (Josephus)
    Jesus gained many disciples from many nations, (Josephus)
    He healed blind and lame people in Bethsaida and Bethany, (Julian the Apostate)
    He was accused of practicing sorcery and leading Israel astray, (the Talmud)
    Under Herod, and during the reign of Tiberius, Pontius Pilate condemned Christ to die, (Tacitus)
    Christ was crucified on the eve of Passover, (the Talmud)
    His crucifixion was accompanied by three hours of unexplained darkness, (Thallus)
    Christ's disciples, "reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive;", (Josephus)
    His disciples took to the habit of meeting on a fixed day of the week and took their name "Christians" from him, (Pliny)
    They gave worship to Christ "as to a god", (Pliny)
    They bound themselves over to abstaining from wicked deeds, fraud, theft, adultery, and lying, (Pliny)
    Christians held a contempt for death and were known for a voluntary self-devotion, (Lucian)
    Christians believed themselves all brothers from the...
















    Just by listening to Jesus' enemies and outsiders, we can put together the following profile on Christ and his influence; the sum of which positively affirms the believability of the Bible and deity of his person:

    Jesus was a wise man and was called the Christ or Messiah, (Josephus)
    Jesus gained many disciples from many nations, (Josephus)
    He healed blind and lame people in Bethsaida and Bethany, (Julian the Apostate)
    He was accused of practicing sorcery and leading Israel astray, (the Talmud)
    Under Herod, and during the reign of Tiberius, Pontius Pilate condemned Christ to die, (Tacitus)
    Christ was crucified on the eve of Passover, (the Talmud)
    His crucifixion was accompanied by three hours of unexplained darkness, (Thallus)
    Christ's disciples, "reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive;", (Josephus)
    His disciples took to the habit of meeting on a fixed day of the week and took their name "Christians" from him, (Pliny)
    They gave worship to Christ "as to a god", (Pliny)
    They bound themselves over to abstaining from wicked deeds, fraud, theft, adultery, and lying, (Pliny)
    Christians held a contempt for death and were known for a voluntary self-devotion, (Lucian)
    Christians believed themselves all brothers from the moment of their conversion, (Lucian)
    Christians lived after Christ's laws, (Lucian)
    AND no one allows themself to be tortured and killed for something they did not personally see and witness;
    Here is how many of those closest to Jesus met their end:

    Matthew - killed by stabbing as ordered by King Hircanus
    James, son of Alphaeous - crucified
    James, brother of Jesus - thrown down from a height, stoned and then beaten to death at the hands of Ananias (circa AD 66)
    John - tortured by boiling oil, exiled to Patmos in AD 95
    Mark - burned during Roman emperor Trajan's reign
    Peter - crucified upside-down by the gardens of Nero on the Vatican hill circa AD 64
    Andrew - crucified on an "X" shaped cross by Aegeas, governor of the Edessenes, around AD 80
    Philip - stoned and crucified in Hierapolis, Phrygia
    Simon - crucified in Egypt under Trajan's reign
    Thomas - death by spear thrust in Calamina, India
    Thaddaeous - killed by arrows
    James, son of Zebedee - killed by sword in AD 44 by order of King Herod Agrippa I of Judea
    Bartholomew - beaten, flayed alive, crucified upside down, then beheaded
    (more)
  • Foxhoun... Flash,a... 2012/06/26 12:44:31
    Foxhound BN0
    All of the references you cited were born after Jesus' death and do not meet the criteria in the question.

    Can you give me non-biblical references for the second section of your reply? (Matthew - killed by stabbing as order.....)
  • Flash,a... Foxhoun... 2012/06/26 13:10:10
    Flash,aka,Mr.Lightning
    +1
    I already did,-Tacitus.
    So by your reasoning someone born a few years after Jimmy Carter's reign of president could not be trusted to write history about him? Its done all the time.
  • Foxhoun... Flash,a... 2012/06/26 13:45:06
    Foxhound BN0
    +1
    sigh. I just asked a question.

    Tacitus

    Born: AD 56
    Died: AD 117
  • abycinn... Flash,a... 2012/06/26 20:02:51
    abycinnamon BN-1
    +1
    that's hardly a valid comparison. They didn't have the sorts of records then that we do now. The talmud is not independent of the bible. The roman historians you mention are not known for their accuracy, and they were considerably later than jesus was. Legitimate historians do not consider them unimpeachable sources.
  • Flash,a... abycinn... 2012/06/26 20:28:01
    Flash,aka,Mr.Lightning
    +1
    Thats right 2 k yeras ago the people were ignoramus and didn't know or record history.
  • abycinn... Flash,a... 2012/06/26 21:30:26 (edited)
    abycinnamon BN-1
    +1
    well, they didn't tape everything or have newspapers. The amount of records made were certainly different. And unfortunately many of the records that did exist have been lost. A modern writer writing about a fairly modern historical figure has access to primary source material in the form of film, video, and numerous other contemporary sources. Not true in the ancient world. Now perhaps we can stop being disingenuous?
  • Flash,a... abycinn... 2012/06/26 23:07:33
    Flash,aka,Mr.Lightning
    +1
    I was being a bit facetious. But a problem with many today is that they do think that earlier man was inferior and less intelligent; this is not true. What we have today is ACCUMLULATIVE knowledge. The Roman Empire in 31AD was a well organized political system and levied taxes upon everyone and they maintained tax records as well. Of course most of these records are no longer existent. But there have always been historians and what they wrote would not be accepted by ruling parties and other historians if it were fabrications. Why even Muhammad acknowledged Christ' existence as historical and if he could have show that the existence was a fabrication he would have jumped all over it to discredit Christ.
    Then again if a person only wants to argue a point to lend credence to their lack of belief then that's what they will do.
    Another point to consider is that maybe along the way a false Jesus has been substituted for the real one.
    Two books you can read if you choose on the subject are online;-
    http://www.scribd.com/itwills...
    http://www.scribd.com/itwills...
  • Foxhoun... Flash,a... 2012/06/27 11:03:56
    Foxhound BN0
    i think one can argue, fairly, that literacy rates are higher today than they used to be, and that superstition is taking a back seat to science.
  • sue 2012/06/26 06:58:16
    No.
    sue
    +2
    I remember a long ago conversation with a friend in graduate school. He was asking me whether I believed in Jesus, and I said that I believed he existed, but didn't think he was the son of God. He said that was interesting, because there is no proof of Jesus the man, but I found that easy to accept. He told me he had researched and spent a lot of time on the issue. (I have always meant to revisit it myself, but have not had time.) He said that in the Roman province of Judea, there were excellent records. The censuses can stll be found. There are records of businesses, property ownership, prisoners, crucifixions, and in none of them is there a mention of Jesus. The Holy Family did not have means, and that may be why they do not have officially registered property or business, however, the story says they were n Bethlehem because of the census. We know that Joseph had a carpentry business, yet he is not mentioned. Surely, if Jesus made a big enough impression to actually be addressed by the Herod himself, he would have merited mention among those crucified. It is certainly a puzzle.
  • Finding... sue 2012/06/27 03:21:37
    FindingHeartInThisCrazy World
    +1
    Christ referred to himself as the Son of Man...
  • aneed2know 2012/06/26 06:29:30
    No.
    aneed2know
    +4
    not one shred of evidence that he existed, not one.
  • MarinerFH 2012/06/26 01:08:19
  • Foxhoun... MarinerFH 2012/06/26 01:29:32
    Foxhound BN0
    +1
    Did you understand the question?
  • MarinerFH Foxhoun... 2012/06/26 01:32:49
  • Foxhoun... MarinerFH 2012/06/26 01:50:36
    Foxhound BN0
    +1
    Were any of those people alive when Jesus was?
  • MarinerFH Foxhoun... 2012/06/26 01:56:46
  • Foxhoun... MarinerFH 2012/06/26 09:27:51
    Foxhound BN0
    +2
    not at all. i don't know why you think it is. that's just silly. i'm looking for documentation from when jesus was alive and your answers do not fit the criteria. i have no idea why you would think otherwise. i appreciate the effort but no.
  • MarinerFH Foxhoun... 2012/06/26 15:18:53
  • Foxhoun... MarinerFH 2012/06/27 11:05:41
    Foxhound BN0
    Good because you didn't follow the criteria of the question. Your answer is invalid, and I'll shut up when I feel like it. If you don't want to reply then don't.
  • Foxhoun... Foxhoun... 2012/06/27 11:06:50
    Foxhound BN0
    enough! fu
    ceasar
  • Flash,a... Foxhoun... 2012/06/27 11:33:38
    Flash,aka,Mr.Lightning
    You believe in fantasy yourself! Show us some documentation that Obama is who he says he is. There is no historic documentation on Obama.
  • Foxhoun... Flash,a... 2012/06/27 11:57:44
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