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Is the War on Women Real or Manufactured?

News 2012/04/12 19:18:14
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Politics got personal on Wednesday when Democratic strategist Hilary Rosen accused Mitt Romney's wife, Ann Romney, of having "never worked a day in her life." It moved Mrs. Romney to send her first tweet ever ("I made a choice to stay home and raise five boys. Believe me, it was hard work"), setting off a debate over the decision to work or stay home. But The Christian Science Monitor is calling it a "fake" debate.

Ann told Fox News, "[Rosen] should have come to my house when those five boys were causing so much trouble, it wasn’t so easy. My career choice was to be a mother. And I think all of us need to know that we need to respect the choices that women make. Other women make other choices to have a career and raise a family, which I think Hilary Rosen has actually done herself. I respect that, that's wonderful... We have to respect women in all those choices that they make."

But Rosen is sticking to her guns, and responded to the criticism in a CNN editorial: "I have no judgments about women who work outside the home versus women who work in the home raising a family. I admire women who can stay home and raise their kids full time. I even envy them sometimes. It is a wonderful luxury to have the choice. But let's stipulate that it is not a choice that most women have in America today." We're not sure if Hilary Rosen or Ann Romney wins this debate, but that's not really the point. Do you think these kinds of feuds are real -- or just manufactured to get a vote in politics?


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  • decrepi... swp 2012/05/29 22:45:37
  • rand 2012/04/13 17:19:40
    Real
    rand
    +2
    I'm a Goldwater Republican who thinks male chavinism isn't going away soon. There are economic advantages to keeping women from gaining equality, though I'm not sure how anyone could prove one party is more guilty of it than the other.
  • Deborah... rand 2012/04/13 17:45:25
    Deborah Donnison
    Economic advantages to keeping women down??? It's Repubs like you that we are getting really tired of dealing with. How old are you? I'm sixty and I barely remember Goldwater.
  • aidennq... Deborah... 2012/04/13 18:01:28
    aidennqueen
    Don't get personal. He didn't really say he approved of this situation, did he?
  • Paul Deborah... 2012/04/13 19:53:06
    Paul
    As far as answering what economic advantage, if all women stayed home to care for the kids, that would leave enough jobs for the men or income earner for each household. In todays society, the main income earner can very easily be either the man or woman. The norm has actually become two income households. A second income used to be for paying for a vacation or extra luxury in the home, but it does seem two incomes are needed just to pay the bills in todays economy.
    I dont see "keeping women down" as a viable option, but I am just saying how it could actually be considered as an economic advantage.
  • cestmon... Paul 2012/05/10 21:04:11
    cestmonopinion
    I think there's also a theological aspect to that equation of keeping women down as well. The Christian right considers women less than men and that their primary function is to be in the home and having and caring for children. Take BC away and you take away women's choices.
  • syl cestmon... 2012/05/23 20:46:35
    syl
    I don't know where you think the Christian right thinks like YOU said! I've been involved in the Christian right for more yrs than you are old, probably, & nobody thinks that.

    Any woman would probably like the choice of being able to stay home with the kids, or not-I would have much preferred to stay home with them, but I had to work.
  • cestmon... syl 2012/06/04 20:26:51
    cestmonopinion
    Nobody thinks that? So you deny the existence of groups like the Prairie Muffins and Quiverfull? The whole submission of women doctrine? Please. I WAS a Christian, raised up in it and I KNOW that what I'm saying is quite true. Maybe you belong to some super liberal church or something, but Christians believe that a woman's role is at home raising kids and submitting to the husband.
  • syl cestmon... 2012/06/04 21:09:03
    syl
    I've never heard of these muffins or quivers. You can take isolated extremists out of the Appalachians,or something, but doesn't in ANY WAY, mean the whole Christian right "considers women less than men, & that their primary function is to be in the home"...Also the variance in beliefs is like sands on the beach, for interpreting the submission to the husband deal, or the womens role, or just about every doctrine in the Bible.

    There is no organized religion that takes away a women's rights, except Muslim-just off the top of my head.

    Went to 4 yrs Bible College, got a THB (Bachelor of Theology), went 2 more yrs. & I know what I am talking about.

    And I was in one of the most non-liberal churches.

    Nobody is taking away birth control.

    Much to-do about nothing.
  • rand Deborah... 2012/04/14 03:18:53
    rand
    I think my wife would disagree with your take on my beliefs in the equality of women. But the reality of businesses underpaying women doesn't make me biased, just factual.
    Actually I think your gender is superior. If the survival of our species depended on me giving birth, we'd go extinct.
    I campaigned for Barry while I was in high school. He was a man of high integrity. The GOP threatened to take his name off of "The Goldwater Institute " for changing his views on gays.
  • cestmon... rand 2012/05/10 21:06:00
    cestmonopinion
    +1
    I hope that the Republican party splits, because I'm no where near 60 but I do recall that 20 years ago when I first starting voting that I could seriously consider a Republican candidate. Those days are over.
  • cestmon... Deborah... 2012/06/04 20:21:18
    cestmonopinion
    Goldwater. Was that a James Bond movie?
  • Jim in SC 2012/04/13 17:19:30
    Manufactured
    Jim in SC
    +3
    Complete fabrication
  • BigFig#9 Jim in SC 2012/04/13 17:26:47
    BigFig#9
    +3
    So all those abortion restriction laws in all the states are .... also a fabrication?
  • Jim in SC BigFig#9 2012/04/13 17:32:48
    Jim in SC
    Could you state your case that the laws you are referencing are 1) harmful to women, and 2) a "war" on women (since the term war would necessitate an organized effort).

    I don't mean the above comment in a snide or derogatory way. I just would like to see how you connect what you have referenced to a war on a given gender, and then how you build a logical argument to support your assertion.

    Thanks
  • Deborah... Jim in SC 2012/04/13 17:49:59
    Deborah Donnison
    +1
    It is an organized effort. When all Repubs have signed a pledge to get rid of abortion and birth control...I concider that an orgainzed effort.
  • Jim in SC Deborah... 2012/04/13 21:50:56
    Jim in SC
    Where do you get your information? I've never heard nor seen anything stating that all republicans have signed such a pledge. I find it hard to believe Senators Collins and Snowe would sign such a pledge. Or did you not really mean "all" when you said "all"? If such a pledge exists, by all means please point me to evidence of it. I'd find that quite interesting. What exactly do you mean by "all repubs"? Is it elected officials, registered republicans, members of some group within the party?
  • BigFig#9 Jim in SC 2012/04/13 17:54:31
    BigFig#9
    +1
    Actually in my original post I said WAR is the wrong word - just a very different set of expectations on women's right to choice and in general women's role in society. War is too strong a word. As to harmful to women take your pick - but the multitude of laws requiring medically unneeded diagnostics before a procedure (and the cost associated) is definitely a harm in invasion of privacy and financial terms. NOW, in complete respect of those who believe that a zygote is a human I understand the position - but can't accept that their belief should impact others. Go ahead and carry your zygotes to term but don't tell us what we can and can't do with our zygotes.
  • Jim in SC BigFig#9 2012/04/13 22:05:35
    Jim in SC
    I didn't see your original post. I'll look for it after I submit this comment.

    Regarding your comment that those who think a zygote is a human shouldn't let their belief impact others, that doesn't rest well with logic. The question would be whether a zygote truly is human or not. If it truly is human, then you are dealing with a life or death situation, not just a medical procedure based on choice. In that case, it becomes a case of legalized murder of an innocent human. Taking that line of thinking to it's logical end, one could justify nearly any behavior towards someone they do not recognize as human. The racial zealots who want to exterminate entire races could claim that they feel the race in question is not human, and those who feel different have no right to impose their beliefs on them. You and I would both agree that argument would hold no water with anyone who is remotely sane. And please don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing those who are pro choice with being like Hitler and the Nazis. I'm simply illustrating where the line of reasoning goes.

    That being said, then the question truly becomes, is the zygote/embryo/fetus a person or not? If the answer is "a person", then one cannot simply stand by while that person is brutally killed. It would be like standi...

    I didn't see your original post. I'll look for it after I submit this comment.

    Regarding your comment that those who think a zygote is a human shouldn't let their belief impact others, that doesn't rest well with logic. The question would be whether a zygote truly is human or not. If it truly is human, then you are dealing with a life or death situation, not just a medical procedure based on choice. In that case, it becomes a case of legalized murder of an innocent human. Taking that line of thinking to it's logical end, one could justify nearly any behavior towards someone they do not recognize as human. The racial zealots who want to exterminate entire races could claim that they feel the race in question is not human, and those who feel different have no right to impose their beliefs on them. You and I would both agree that argument would hold no water with anyone who is remotely sane. And please don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing those who are pro choice with being like Hitler and the Nazis. I'm simply illustrating where the line of reasoning goes.

    That being said, then the question truly becomes, is the zygote/embryo/fetus a person or not? If the answer is "a person", then one cannot simply stand by while that person is brutally killed. It would be like standing in your front yard watching a person brutally attacking your next door neighbor. In that situation, you would be compelled to help the neighbor. Nobody would argue that the attacker's freedom of choice to attack or not to attack shouldn't be violated.

    Anyway, I'm getting pretty long winded here, so I'll cut it off at that. I appreciate your reply, and look forward to your response. Thanks.
    (more)
  • BigFig#9 Jim in SC 2012/04/13 22:18:46
    BigFig#9
    And yes you have cut to the heart of why this issue at it's essence is so difficult to resolve... Once you believe a Zygote IS human then you've stepped into a territory where common ground will be hard to come by.
    The most fascinating thing about this question is the left and right hypocrisy you often find when contrasting Abortion and the death penalty and that also is very difficult to resolve. While not necessarily lined up with the Catholic Church I can at least respect the moral integrity and simplicity of their position. Since I don't consider a Zygote human then I can claim consistency in my opposition to the death penalty but I'll confess I'm not absolutely comfortable with abortion and on a personal level would have great difficulty accepting an abortion in a family member of a friend close to me. That said I've resolved to my own satisfaction that a Zygote is not human yet. PS---by the way---nice to see SodaHead with polite discourse. Too often this site is polluted with haters both ways.
  • Jim in SC BigFig#9 2012/04/14 04:59:06 (edited)
    Jim in SC
    Thanks for your reply. It is refreshing to have a discussion rather than an argument. It's interesting that we have several points of agreement, even though we come down on opposite sides of the beginning of personhood for a fetus.

    Regarding the death penalty, I don't think there is necessarily an inconsistency between being pro life and still support the death penalty. The reasoning actually hinges on the same logic I mentioned above. Assuming the embryo is human, and should be protected, then abortion would be killing an innocent person. On the other hand, a convicted criminal (murderer) is not an innocent human being. Thus, the question becomes "has one done something worthy of death?". In the case of a murderer, to simplify the argument, you could say that since he had taken a life, his is now forfiet. The same could not be said of the fetus. An unborn child has not performed any act which could be remotely considered worthy of death.

    In this case, the non-contradiction hinges on the innocence of the unborn compared to the guilt of the known, convicted murderer.

    In my statements above, I "assumed" the right of the government to issue the death penalty. I do think that could be established, but my point was to show (hopefully) that there isn't necessarily a contradic...

    Thanks for your reply. It is refreshing to have a discussion rather than an argument. It's interesting that we have several points of agreement, even though we come down on opposite sides of the beginning of personhood for a fetus.

    Regarding the death penalty, I don't think there is necessarily an inconsistency between being pro life and still support the death penalty. The reasoning actually hinges on the same logic I mentioned above. Assuming the embryo is human, and should be protected, then abortion would be killing an innocent person. On the other hand, a convicted criminal (murderer) is not an innocent human being. Thus, the question becomes "has one done something worthy of death?". In the case of a murderer, to simplify the argument, you could say that since he had taken a life, his is now forfiet. The same could not be said of the fetus. An unborn child has not performed any act which could be remotely considered worthy of death.

    In this case, the non-contradiction hinges on the innocence of the unborn compared to the guilt of the known, convicted murderer.

    In my statements above, I "assumed" the right of the government to issue the death penalty. I do think that could be established, but my point was to show (hopefully) that there isn't necessarily a contradiction between holding a pro life position and supporting the death penalty.

    I appreciate your thoughts on my reasoning here. Especially if you think there are any holes in my logic.
    (more)
  • cestmon... Jim in SC 2012/05/10 21:14:24
    cestmonopinion
    Zygotes are human but not people. Just like my finger is human but its not a person. Nobody aside from some religious people believe a Zygote is a person in the sense you and I are a person. You have to be a fully developed human entity with all the bodily functions to sustain life to be a person. A live infant is a person, a zygote is not. A full grown woman is a person, a zygote is not. Common freaking sense. As we agree to disagree on this point of person hood, and many reasonable people have disagreed throughout the ages, when life begins, etc. your judeochristian belief that a zygote is human should not be law. It's theology and not fact. As we have separation of church and state, I don't want your religious views determining whether I as a woman have a right to BC or ending a pregnancy should I want/need to.
  • cestmon... BigFig#9 2012/05/10 21:09:04
    cestmonopinion
    Zygotes may be human but they aren't persons. And I would not back off of the word War at all. It most definitely a war and the harms are both physical psychological and economic.
  • BigFig#9 Jim in SC 2012/05/10 21:52:30
    BigFig#9
    +1
    1) Reduces a woman's rights - privacy and health subject to restriction = harm 2) organized...very clearly orchestrated efforts of clearly Republican associated lobbying organizations (ALEC, etc...) developing and distributing model state level laws. At the very least it's a proxy war by by rightwingers executed by a mercenary Republican party. So by your definition, yes, it is war.
  • Deborah... BigFig#9 2012/04/13 17:47:46
    Deborah Donnison
    +1
    Yes, and those laws that make rape with surgical instruments OK are a fabrication? Getting rid of contriceptives is FABRICATION??
  • benjordan03 2012/04/13 17:18:38
    Real
    benjordan03
    +1
    There are facts about this issue. If anybody cares. http   thinkprogress org wp content uploads 2011 07 2011 restrictions gif
  • benjord... greg pe... 2012/04/13 17:19:58 (edited)
    benjordan03
    +1
    Religious institutions found it morally wrong to give vaccines in the early 1900's. They lost that one, too. Religious views never trump health care.
  • amoonsinger 2012/04/13 17:16:50
    Manufactured
    amoonsinger
    +3
    I have been both stay at home and working mother. Either way it is hard work. Those who say that because you stay home you are not working are so full of "it" as to be almost brain dead. Gee, talk about work, you are not just watching the children. The person that thinks that is really stupid. They must manufacture something to impress and I am not at all impressed by those who are this ignorant.

    Even to say a stay at home mother doesn't know economics is stupid. Sure like she never pays bills, does the shopping, budgets for clothing, school supplies, trips, household extras, birthdays, Christmas, and the biggie, taxes. Yea sure stay at home moms just sit around eating bonbon's and watching soaps (yuck to both, most mothers done have time for that).

    How stupid can a person get. Open mouth, insert foot, and shove really hard so that when you reach hip you can stop. Rosen can stick to it all she wants. Stupid, ignorant people tend to not want to let go of the falsehoods they have built for their little world view. This whole thing is manufactured to get votes from women and this is something that could seriously backfire on them. This was a direct attack on mothers who choose to be a stay at home mother. I have many names, Mary, wife, sister, aunt, cousin, and mama was the most important one I have ever had till the name grandma came along. Rosen just attacked the most important job I ever had, the job I choose to be my first.
  • BigFig#9 amoonsi... 2012/04/13 17:30:30
    BigFig#9
    How sensitive can we all get? Comment was probably insensitive and not well thought out but give me a break - despite MS and despite breast cancer - Ms. Romney cannot relate to a single mom working minimum wage without healthcare insurance nor can the typical female attendee at a Republican (or Democrat for that matter) fund raiser.
  • Deborah... BigFig#9 2012/04/13 17:55:58
    Deborah Donnison
    +1
    Agreed . Ms.Romney has led the life of luxury. She may have had nannies for all her kids. This is the kind of thing that Rosen was talking about...if you listen to the whole remark, then you will see she wasn't attacking STAY AT HOME MOMS...she was attacking Romney. So you don't have to worry about defending Stay At Home Moms...we all agree is is not easy. I was for 16 years and I understand where Rosen was coming from.
  • Deborah... Deborah... 2012/04/13 17:59:47
    Deborah Donnison
    +1
    To add: Rosen didn't attack her out of the clear blue...Mr. Romney brought her into the discussion by saying that wife was his advisor. He should have kept his mouth shut if he wanted to keep her out of the politcal scene. But we all know, Romney cannot keep his mouth shut. Rubber and Glue Man!
  • amoonsi... Deborah... 2012/04/19 19:28:36
    amoonsinger
    Ah the true wife and husband. They do advise each other. It's a communication that many cannot comprehend. Nothing wrong with it but that the left can't handle it. Just because she stays at home doesn't make her an idiot like some.
  • cestmon... amoonsi... 2012/06/04 20:37:20
    cestmonopinion
    She was talking about Ann Romney. She is not a working mother like you or like my mother was. She had the luxury of staying home and you can bet she had servants, nannys, etc. and so forth. If you think she didn't, you're naive. Rosen was not attacking stay at home mothers. She was pointing out the ridiculousness of Romney looking to his over privileged wife as a representative of the average stay at home mom. She is not. Bottom line. Don't listen to the Republicans trying to divide and conquer women by working/stay-at-home. Being a woman at home or in the workplace or both is WORK. In many ways we work harder than men. Just one more thing I'd like to add. I don't like equating stay at home motherhood with work and commerce. It isn't a career. It's a vocation, a role and a calling. The most important in the world. There's no price tag to put on it because it is invaluable. There's no amount of cash anyone could have paid my stay-at-home grandma for raising my mom and her five siblings.
  • ☆FritzW☆ 2012/04/13 17:16:47
    Manufactured
    ☆FritzW☆
    +2
    This kind of stuff is so disgusting to me. Republican or Democrat... the candidate is who's running for office and He or She is the only valid target, but let me further say that there should be no targets in an electoral race. Damn it... talk about issues and why you are the better candidate for the position you seek. Most times today, when (and it's rare) there's more than one candidate I can vote for.. the one who get's my vote is the one who stayed on the path or did the best job of staying on the path. Sad though.. it's such a rare election race that doesn't see personal attacks and negative ads, etc. Sadder than that? As a society, we don't research elections and the candidates. I'll bet I can ask 100 people who's running for a state or local office and 80 wouldn't be able to tell me. So when they vote, they vote strictly on the ads and attacks.. not the fact that the attacker voted 20 times out of 20 times to raise taxes some other real issue.
  • Uranos7 2012/04/13 17:12:22
    Manufactured
    Uranos7
    +2
    What democrats are calling the 'War on Women' is just the abortion debate that has been raging since the sixties. But Women care about more than abortion and to fabricate a 'War on Women' insults every womans intelligence and is a sexist attempt by the democrats to play on women's feelings to polarize women into voting for thier messiah Obama who could care less about women and has proven he will do anything to get votes.
    FEMINISM
    Democrats view feminism as the government taking care of women making thier life easier and providing all thier needs for them.
    Reoublicans view feminism as putting women on an equal level with men, allowing them to make it on thier own or fail on thier own by thier own strengths and weaknesses.
  • Deborah... Uranos7 2012/04/13 18:03:42
    Deborah Donnison
    +1
    IF Repubs view feminism as putting women on an EQUALl level with men, then why are they trying their best to get rid of Equal Pay for Equal Work law??? And trying to get rid of heath care for women. Oh, it's ok for men to get VIAGRA and penis pumps for free, but it's not ok for women to have health care of any kind.
  • Uranos7 Deborah... 2012/04/13 19:46:28
    Uranos7
    +1
    You really have drank the Kool- Aid haven't you?
    They are not trying to get rid of healthcare for anyone Republican Sen. Mitch McConnel first proposed public option in 1993 but was shot down by DEMOCRATIC senators who were in the pocket of the healthcare copanies. Obama campaigned on that very idea but abandoned it because when he got to the White house his own party balked at the idea. 5 LIBERALS were arrested at the press release for this bill for protesting it's exclusion at the direction of DEMOCRATIC finance committe chairman Baucus.
    Republicans object to the bill because without the public option it is unconstitutional
    So who is really denying healthcare to women? Democrats!
    Here is a PBS program that documents all I have said.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages...
  • jlolli Uranos7 2012/04/16 12:42:14
    jlolli
    Careful Barry... LibProgs really don't like it when you use FACTS to burst their little bubble.
  • Larry j 2012/04/13 17:08:15
    Manufactured
    Larry j
    +1
    Actually the war is by the dumbocrats. 50% of the babies killed in abortions are women.
  • Deborah... Larry j 2012/04/13 18:04:12
    Deborah Donnison
    Wrong

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