Conservative.
All funamental aspects of various religions are born of a conservative interpritation of that religion's philosophy/code/dogma/book....
Example:
The "creation of the Earth"
Liberal interpritation: 7 days to god might be 100,000,000 years to us.
Conservative interpritation: 7 days means 7 days.
Top Opinion
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Doc. J 2011/08/04 13:58:15
--anyway, it was just a paste and copy of the Koran, as Victoria noticed.
It might have started with noble intentions, but it has only become a tool for social engineering, and you can see for yourself the results of its inabilitity to promote debate and logic skills.
An add hominem is a personal attack- a fallacy of logic argument.
I never attacked you personally, nor even your sources, although you seemed to have thought I did.
And I'm way too old to have been educated by OBE.
Jean wrote: "Many people have to attack the writer when they can't refute the post. I get attacked all of the time personally instead of what I am quoting."
I wrote: "It's called an ad hominem attack"
I never accused you of an ad hominem attack. I accuse you of never responding with logical debate at all. You make these sweeping comments about the beauty of Islam to people who have never studied it, and the moment the very moment that someone who can refute your response to them is invariably, "Don't bother me." or "I'm bored." or not to respond at all.
You come across as the typical air-headed American woman who joins Islam for some silly fluffy notion, or to gain some dignity that you lost in a previous life. You offer no intellectual imput at all into defending your religion. And I am not attacking you. I am just telling you how you come across when you state these silly things, and then run away with some fluffy quote about "not bothering you."
Listen, you should involve your intellect into your faith, or change your faith to something that does engage your intellect. Mohammad is the one who accused you of having deficient intellect. I believe better of you.
Now see, THAT is an example of an ad hominem fallacious argument.
I freely admit that a million air-heads could embrace an idea, and that wouldn't make the idea wrong. If every single air-head in the US embraced an idea, the idea still might be right. So I am not using the way you come across as a reason to reject Islam. I reject Islam based on it's lack of evidence or merits.
I am simply trying to draw out your intellect. I want to challenge you to probe deeper into your religion, and demand logic and truth. Like I said, I believe in you. I believe you have the stuff to do it. You can give me some hard-hitting evidence, or think highly enough to reject Islam if the evidence isn't really there.
Or you can keep giving puff-ball replies like "I don't care" and "Don't bother me." and "No more cut-and-paste, I'm bored, now." It is up to you. It was only Mohammad who denigrated your intellect, not me.
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were...
I freely admit that a million air-heads could embrace an idea, and that wouldn't make the idea wrong. If every single air-head in the US embraced an idea, the idea still might be right. So I am not using the way you come across as a reason to reject Islam. I reject Islam based on it's lack of evidence or merits.
I am simply trying to draw out your intellect. I want to challenge you to probe deeper into your religion, and demand logic and truth. Like I said, I believe in you. I believe you have the stuff to do it. You can give me some hard-hitting evidence, or think highly enough to reject Islam if the evidence isn't really there.
Or you can keep giving puff-ball replies like "I don't care" and "Don't bother me." and "No more cut-and-paste, I'm bored, now." It is up to you. It was only Mohammad who denigrated your intellect, not me.
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
While you may be curious about my intellect, I already know your sources. And do not return that
curiosity. And yes, I'm bored.
Description of Ad Hominem
Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:
Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
Example of Ad Hominem
Bill: "I believe that abortion is ...
While you may be curious about my intellect, I already know your sources. And do not return that
curiosity. And yes, I'm bored.
Description of Ad Hominem
Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:
Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
Example of Ad Hominem
Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."
I've had a few of these conversations before,dear.
And I recognize when the material is simply lifted from a blog somewhere.
You've demonstrated no original thought- not one.
And now you've lowered yourself to simple attention getting devices like ad hominem attacks- a thing you did not even know the definition.
Do I care what you think of me? No.
Have you piqued any curiosity on my part?
No, I find you as predictable as any other who's googled a thing, and pasted it without reading nor understanding.
GO find another Muslim to bother with your parroted nonsense.
Oh, that's right- there really aren't any more because they've all left because they were sick of the ignorance.
See you later alligator.
"ANd it also helps to attribute which translation you're using.
I believe you're using Yusuf Ali, or Pickthall."--that is you, Victoria complaining about your corrupted Koran.
Does it matter that the names in Arabic are the same and the translator changed them?
Yes- obviously because it confused you, didn't it?
It's no reflection on the original Qur'an, but on the translator.
Attribution is just a good scholarly practice.
It was just a suggestion.
First, Muhammad (pbuh) did not write the Qur'an.
Second- English translates the names differently- the name in Arabic is the same.
Her suggestion is that the Qur'an is corruptible- but if it's a translation from the original Arabic- it's already a known quantity that it is by necessity somewhat corrupted by the act of translation, and so there are different standards for the way we treat the translated Qur'ans, as opposed to Arabic only Qur'ans.
Meaning keeping the book clean, things like that.
Performing ablution before reading it.The physical treatment of the books.
The original Arabic Qur'ans are in museums- 1,000(ed.) years old- and are identical everywhere to the books we have on record. corruption means a change from the original texts . So an Arabic copy of the template- the original- is identical in text to it.
I don't know how many ways to explain this.
I thought you were a man who valued and understood logic
If you actually are reading the Qur'an, you should have figured out by now that the stories .contain different accounts- some pronounced.
Like Yusuf, and Zuleikha for instance.
You also betray your own pre-conditioning by presuming the biblical stories are "correct". and any deviation from their reportage is "a mistake".
Maybe it works for you dear, but it's just an enormous yawn for me.
If you want to find out what our friend is going to paste next- just go to the source where she got it.
http://allahnotgod.blogspot.c...
Speculative theology is not your strength.
Now if you'd like to engage me- go for it-
but don't expect me to be able to stay engaged by rote pastes.
So, for me, I read my bible any time I feel like it, and as a matter of fact, it is setting on the floor next to me, in case I need it to look something up fast.
In Victoria's eyes, that is "proof" that the bible is corrupted, and the Koran is not.
Mary and Miriam are the same name in Arabic- Maryam.
Imran is the father of Maryam (Mary)
Amran is the father of Moses,Aaron,and Maryam(Miriam)
You folks are on your own now. Spelling
misunderstandings are- well- not really something I want to spend so much time on unraveling for others.
Ok see you later.
Miriam and Mary were born to two different sets of parents, had different siblings, and were born some 1300 years apart. It isn't just a matter of saying that it was a change in Arabic names.
Mary the mother of Jesus had a sister. Miriam the daughter of Jochabed and Amran did not. Miriam was from the tribe of Levi. Mary the mother of Jesus was from the tribe of Judah.
Numbers 26:59
59 the name of Amram’s wife was Jochebed, a descendant of Levi, who was born to the Levites[a] in Egypt. To Amram she bore Aaron, Moses and their sister Miriam.
John 19:25
25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
To prove a mistake you perceive to be in the Qur'an?
I'm sorry- the names are the same in Arabic. That's that.
All Jewesses are daughters of Rachel or sisters of Aaron or Moses or any other member of the tribe.
Are you a literal fundamentalism?
That was nicely done. I wish all you fundies could be as clear minded about your own religion's contradictions as you are about others.
I really enjoyed your debate with Victoria. She is a friend and we often agree, but on the subject of Islam.....no.
Why make the dig?
Just so you know Daring, the responses you have made to me have been no different than the responses Victoria has made to me.
--No different at all.
There are differences in the texts-
Surah 5:68 (six translations)
Sahih International
Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
Muhsin Khan
Say (O Muhammad SAW) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Quran)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve.
Pickthall
Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelie...
Surah 5:68 (six translations)
Sahih International
Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
Muhsin Khan
Say (O Muhammad SAW) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Quran)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve.
Pickthall
Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
Yusuf Ali
Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
Shakir
Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.
Dr. Ghali
Say, "O Population of the Book, you are up to nothing until you keep up the Tawrah and the Injil and whatever has been sent to you from your Lord." And indeed what has been sent down to you (The prophet Muhammad) from your Lord will definitely increase many of them in ordinance and disbelief, so do not feel sad for the disbelieving people.
-----------------------------...
Surah 10:94
Sahih International
So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.
Muhsin Khan
So if you (O Muhammad SAW) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, [i.e. that your name is written in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it).
Pickthall
And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
Yusuf Ali
If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
Shakir
But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
Dr. Ghali
So, in case you are in doubt regarding what We have sent down to you, then ask the ones who read the Book even before you. Indeed the Truth has already come to you from your Lord, so do not definitely be of the constant wranglers.
Use your critical thinking skills.
So recompute with the new info you've been given.