Add a comment above
Top Opinion
-
Kara ~~~ American Patriot 2012/02/07 02:34:23Yes
+5People are pretty set in what they believe. Besides, I do not like people pushing their religions on me.
I was going to vote "Yes", but I changed my mind last minute because I realize that regardless of what small percentage you may actually convert or deconvert, you may at least plant a seed that could some day bear the fruit of your convincing, and that is the point.
I do however think it is possible but not very probable that you will be able to win over anyone in this arena. People hold onto religious belief above all else, regardless of or despite evidence to the contrary. Usually this is because they no and can not fathom any alternative. But even outside of religious debates, it's seems to be part of our human nature to put more time and effort into defending ones point of view than we ever would in considering the opposition. People appear to have some innate desire to want to be right no matter what, but especially when confronted with the possibility of being wrong.
I used to be a devout, apologetics christian. 4 years ago I realized that I never considered the Atheist point of view, I was only always defending my faith and researching the reasons why atheists were wrong. I decided to read into why atheists reject Christian...
I was going to vote "Yes", but I changed my mind last minute because I realize that regardless of what small percentage you may actually convert or deconvert, you may at least plant a seed that could some day bear the fruit of your convincing, and that is the point.
I do however think it is possible but not very probable that you will be able to win over anyone in this arena. People hold onto religious belief above all else, regardless of or despite evidence to the contrary. Usually this is because they no and can not fathom any alternative. But even outside of religious debates, it's seems to be part of our human nature to put more time and effort into defending ones point of view than we ever would in considering the opposition. People appear to have some innate desire to want to be right no matter what, but especially when confronted with the possibility of being wrong.
I used to be a devout, apologetics christian. 4 years ago I realized that I never considered the Atheist point of view, I was only always defending my faith and researching the reasons why atheists were wrong. I decided to read into why atheists reject Christianity and religion, and why they believe what they do.
Today, I am an atheist.
I found myself asking the same 3 questions with every irreligious book I read:
Why wasn't I told that?
Why didn't I think of that?
And, How could I have believed that?!
If a person has no desire to question their own beliefs, religious or otherwise, they won't.
...A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
I am a Christian.
So no, this isn't always the case. I've found plenty "evidence" for both arguments, and respect all points of view, but what it actually comes down to is what you believe in, and what you choose to acknowledge as truth.
People, especially on matters of religion, tend to suffer from "Selective Ignorance", which is basically choosing to maintain a certain belief system based on tradition, comfortability and / or pride, dispite any or all facts and evidence to the contary.
Religionists often accuse nonbelievers of having "faith", just as I did once upon a time. A common argument that is given is, "Every time you flip on a light switch you are exercising faith!" But now I understand that this is not faith, it is a rational expectation based on experience and knowledge. ...And if the light fails to go on, it does not shatter my world view. I expect that the light will sometimes fail due to a burnt bulb, blown circuit, or other natural cause. This is the opposite of religious faith. The light does not work one way or the other because of my expectation. Rather, my expectation is based on experience. If lights were to begin failing most of the time, I would have to adjust my expectation (or my electrical system). But religious faith is not adjustable; it stands firm regardless of a lack of evidence, and in spite of contra...
People, especially on matters of religion, tend to suffer from "Selective Ignorance", which is basically choosing to maintain a certain belief system based on tradition, comfortability and / or pride, dispite any or all facts and evidence to the contary.
Religionists often accuse nonbelievers of having "faith", just as I did once upon a time. A common argument that is given is, "Every time you flip on a light switch you are exercising faith!" But now I understand that this is not faith, it is a rational expectation based on experience and knowledge. ...And if the light fails to go on, it does not shatter my world view. I expect that the light will sometimes fail due to a burnt bulb, blown circuit, or other natural cause. This is the opposite of religious faith. The light does not work one way or the other because of my expectation. Rather, my expectation is based on experience. If lights were to begin failing most of the time, I would have to adjust my expectation (or my electrical system). But religious faith is not adjustable; it stands firm regardless of a lack of evidence, and in spite of contrary evidence.
If/ when a nonbeliever expresses what might be truly defined as "faith", we are not assuming that our faith makes a belief any more true. We all assert trust or confidence in something that is not known 100%.
The point is that although I often do express sentiments with near absolute confidence, I remain open to the possibility that I might be wrong, conceding that my so-called faith claim is not a knowledge claim. Religionists from all sides claim to know that they know that they know a la devine revelation or a "pesonal relationship" with the god of their choosing. Based on all that I've learned these past 4 years, Drs. Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, and David Mills have earned my respect. God has not.
You admit as did I once that you believe in a book with talking animals, unicorns (KJV), wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, yet Christians assert that everyone else in the world are the ones that need saving!?!
I recommend the following:
* Atheist Universe by David Mills
* The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins
* god is not great by Christopher Hitchens
Incidentally, I have found that most Christians won't read these books but are happily obliged to read books by Chrisitan authors refuting them without ever actually reading the originals for themselves. Again: Selective Ignorance.
Most of what you said only consisted of the stereotypical idea of Christians, and Christianity itself. When in fact, the church I've grown up in these past few years is filled with intellectuals, those who are well aware of their surroundings, and the authors you've mentioned. And yes, I do know what Richard Dawkins is all about. He read his book aloud and it was uploaded onto Youtube. I'm sorry, sir, but conceitedness is held on both sides, religious nuts and atheists, him being a prime example of the latter. We happen to be neither, my church and I. We do not claim to "know" all there is. If we did, what would faith be for? That should be obvious to all Christians, but unfortunately, it's not, which is why I have to keep making the point to people such as yourself (not that it's your fault).
Again, I will say there is evidence to both arguments, and to those who can't see that and accept our differences without calling us ignorant hypocrites is just as one-sided as a blind believer. The light switch analogy has holes, simply because, well, it's just a light switch. We understand how they work, and can take them apart to look at them with our own eyes. The theory that our world collided with one big bang isn't exactly something w...
Most of what you said only consisted of the stereotypical idea of Christians, and Christianity itself. When in fact, the church I've grown up in these past few years is filled with intellectuals, those who are well aware of their surroundings, and the authors you've mentioned. And yes, I do know what Richard Dawkins is all about. He read his book aloud and it was uploaded onto Youtube. I'm sorry, sir, but conceitedness is held on both sides, religious nuts and atheists, him being a prime example of the latter. We happen to be neither, my church and I. We do not claim to "know" all there is. If we did, what would faith be for? That should be obvious to all Christians, but unfortunately, it's not, which is why I have to keep making the point to people such as yourself (not that it's your fault).
Again, I will say there is evidence to both arguments, and to those who can't see that and accept our differences without calling us ignorant hypocrites is just as one-sided as a blind believer. The light switch analogy has holes, simply because, well, it's just a light switch. We understand how they work, and can take them apart to look at them with our own eyes. The theory that our world collided with one big bang isn't exactly something we've seen before, or can understand to the fullest extent (And it's not even always an Evolutionist's theory; some Christians believe this to be true as well.). Thus, it does take both faith and knowledge to come to certain conclusions.
The truth really is that many Christians believe Adam and Eve took from the tree of "Knowledge", which is why they think being too educated is harmful and bad. When in actuality, the Bible says they took from the tree of "Knowledge of Good and Evil". Education in general is a great thing.
I'm not going to argue with you why I believe in God, mostly because one, I shouldn't have to prove myself, and two, I respect your views and don't want to impose my values on someone who might be unwilling.
Also, I won't be here for a while (fun times with the family). Please feel free to leave a reply, but there won't be an answer for quite some time.
The only purpose for my responding at this point would basically be out of a self-serving conceitedness to argue and clarify my points and opinions in public forum, so I digress.
But! Great reply. I tip my hat to you, fair lady.
This debate is as old as the hills, and we certainly aren't going end it here on SodaHead. All the information is out there and available for whomever chooses to seek it and weigh the evidences for themselves. Youtube is a bloody battle ground for this debate. (R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens)
It is clear that through each of our experiences we have developed our own understanding and opinions on this matter, and I highly doubt that either one of us will be waived. As I said before, if a person has no desire to question their beliefs, they won't. It doesn't seem like either one of us are willing anymore; we've expressed that we have both already done so and reached our conclusion, having discovered and embraced our own [unprovable] truth.
Both of us can't be right, but we could both be wrong... right?
Adieu. ;-)
Also, not all religions are made up of ignorant, blinded people who sit around and pray for everything to come to them. In fact, I've never even met someone remotely of that personality. I've met Christians who are intellectuals and have a good balance of that and faith.
"not all religions are made up of ignorant, blinded people who sit around and pray for everything to come to them"
That is why I said: "There are still people who haven't lost their ability to reason do to religion."
I have met many people who keep doing the same things while praying for a different outcome.
If we stop arguing, we admit that nothing is wrong.
You have been taught to reject the Lord that gives you life every day but this is against every atom in your body. I will pray for people like you because all your efforts are wasted in this world and you have no concept of the next life. Your good deeds are in vain.
Allah is the Lord of everything and is nothing like His creation in the same way mankind has arms, a nose and legs and so do birds, spiders, sharks and lizards. We are creatures that have similar parts but they are nothing alike. If we are dissimilar and live on the same planet and use the same resources that what about the one that created all resources and creatures and energy and souls? Would He be similar to us?
Islam cleared up all the misconceptions in the Torah and Gospel and completed the guidance in the Qur'an. It leaves out the unnecessary parts and repeats the lessons from the books of the previous prophets.