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How Does 40 Percent Less Government Sound to You?

SodaHead News 2011/07/22 11:00:00
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It's not looking good. Talks to raise the debt ceiling are dragging on with less than two weeks to go before our nation goes into default. While some Conservatives have pooh-poohed the talk of financial Armageddon, at the very least the failure to raise the borrowing limit will call for immediate, drastic cuts to our infrastructure.

Hell, that's not so bad, right? As it is, the GOP has been complaining for most of the Obama administration about the typical liberal orgy of spending, so a bit of a haircut is probably in order. Luckily, The Atlantic magazine broke down a few of the things that will have to be immediately jettisoned if a deal isn't met.

Don't worry, there will still be money to pay for Social Security, Medicare, interest payments on the debt, military payrolls and veteran's benefits. But what will go away overnight? No biggie.

-- No more maintenance or security of the nation's nuclear arsenal.
-- Get out of jail free cards for all our federal prisoners, because none of the guards will be paid and vendors will not deliver food, medical supplies, electricity, etc.
-- No one watching the border stations and all illegal immigrants currently in detention set free because we don't have the money to put them on a plane and send them home.
-- No fuel or electricity for our troops abroad, leaving them stuck in the desert with billions of dollars worth of equipment.
-- Forget about taking a trip overseas, since all of our embassies would have to close down.
-- No help from the federal government to fight wildfires or floods.
-- All those people living in housing projects put out in the street since their Section 8 vouchers would not be paid.
-- Home-schooling for all you public school kids, since that federal money for local school districts won't be in the mail and teachers won't get paid.
-- Oh, and forget about those guaranteed student loans for college.
-- Also, no more mortgage market, no more TSA to guard our airports, or air traffic controllers, for that matter and no more unemployment payments for the out of work.

Does 40 percent less government sound good to you?
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  • TerroRising~PWCM~JLA 2011/07/23 14:14:18
    I think 40 percent less government sounds ...
    TerroRising~PWCM~JLA
    +2
    Excellent, but lets think bigger!
  • Peru 2011/07/23 14:10:31
    I think 40 percent less government sounds ...
    Peru
    +2
    ...like a mixed bag. I'm sure no one wants convicted felons to go out on the street, on the other hand shutting down public schools is likely to have children in an orgy of glee.

    And it's not true that you cannot travel abroad without a US Embassy. Sheesh!
  • rustyshackelford 2011/07/23 14:07:38
  • Thom Payne 2011/07/23 14:01:11
    I think 40 percent less government sounds ...
    Thom Payne
    +2
    I really don't think that those who want this debt ceiling not to be raised are dealing with reality.

    If the US's credit worthiness is downgraded we are going to see spikes in interest rates with the accompanying runaway inflation, more tax money going to interest meaning even less money going to other things....but, hey, air will still be free....I think.
  • MadAsHEck Thom Payne 2011/07/23 18:45:43
    MadAsHEck
    And if the Debt ceiling is raised, they will print more money, and make every dollar worth less than the present 50 Cents. So again everything you buy will cost more.

    There is another Stimulis package lurking in the Administrations closet. And they will bring it out as soon as they can get therir hands on the credit card.

    You and I cannot spend ourselves out of debt. So how can anyone think that the government can do so with our money?

    The only way to get out of debt is to cut spending, and increase income. Government can do the first thing, and then let the Free Market loose to solve the latter.

    Bear in mind that about 10% of those that could be paying taxes have no jobs. Until the business community gets back to work, we are in deep doo doo.

    Right now as Steve Wynn stated last week, business's are sitting on their money, and not hiring until the see a bit more stability in the government.

    Good Business folks are always thinlking 3-4 years down the road, and in this present climate, they don't see much there. So they are holding the line where they are at.
  • Thom Payne MadAsHEck 2011/07/23 22:21:14
    Thom Payne
    +1
    In case Fox News hasn't told you, the President's proposal reduces the deficit and the debt by more than the GOPers in the House.

    His plan has both spending reductions and increases in income - but the GOPers want to cut the debt by less but on the backs of the middle, working and lower classes.

    Nearly 70% of Americans think we should tax the wealthy and corporations more, including a significant number of millionaires and billionaires.

    What is the problem with the GOPers?
  • MadAsHEck Thom Payne 2011/07/23 23:36:16 (edited)
    MadAsHEck
    By the way the deficit reduction is to be something like 4 trillion over the next 10 years. When the debt has risen about 6 trillion since 2007. Not much of a improvement in my book

    Read this and it might make it a bit more clear. Looks like there was a compromise, but Harry Reid and his cohorts killed it.

    http://www.sodahead.com/unite...

    And the 70% you mention is an exageration, and the ones that are all for the taxes being raised are most likely the 60% that pay no taxes at all and draw welfare and big AMT checks every year. Not the ones that work their butts off to make a living.

    Like my Grandaughter, they have been unemployed and on welfare for over a year, and got a $4000 Refund check Now they have a big new 52 Inch TV set and washer and Dryer.

    And are still on Welfare. He works just long enough to qualify for more Unemployment, then arranges to get laid off so he can loaf around the house for more months.. And he's not the only one.


    And if you do some research you'll find that the increases hit anyone that earns over $250,000 per year, which is actually the median income of most small business's. So increasing taxes hits them, they can't afford to hire, and unemploynent goes over 10% and higher.

    Having run 2 small business, I am aware of the load placed o...
    By the way the deficit reduction is to be something like 4 trillion over the next 10 years. When the debt has risen about 6 trillion since 2007. Not much of a improvement in my book

    Read this and it might make it a bit more clear. Looks like there was a compromise, but Harry Reid and his cohorts killed it.

    http://www.sodahead.com/unite...

    And the 70% you mention is an exageration, and the ones that are all for the taxes being raised are most likely the 60% that pay no taxes at all and draw welfare and big AMT checks every year. Not the ones that work their butts off to make a living.

    Like my Grandaughter, they have been unemployed and on welfare for over a year, and got a $4000 Refund check Now they have a big new 52 Inch TV set and washer and Dryer.

    And are still on Welfare. He works just long enough to qualify for more Unemployment, then arranges to get laid off so he can loaf around the house for more months.. And he's not the only one.


    And if you do some research you'll find that the increases hit anyone that earns over $250,000 per year, which is actually the median income of most small business's. So increasing taxes hits them, they can't afford to hire, and unemploynent goes over 10% and higher.

    Having run 2 small business, I am aware of the load placed on them by the government, both in regulations and taxation, and fees. Then in Nevada when the Unions got involved, my guys were making $25 per hour plus bene's, and I was making $5.00 per hour. Which is why I retired early.
    (more)
  • Thom Payne MadAsHEck 2011/07/24 16:44:00
    Thom Payne
    +1
    70% was a bit of an exaggeration, but not hardly as bad as your '60% who pay no taxes' BS. Everyone pays taxes. Everyone who has a job pays payroll taxes on the first dollar earned. If your granddaughter got a $4000 refund check that means that she paid taxes, first.

    Big AMT checks? WTF are you talking about? That stands for 'Alternate Minimum Tax' (implemented, BTW, by Ronald Reagan) which levies a minimum tax on those who have both large gross incomes and large expenses.

    Unemployed people get unemployment, not welfare. There is a huge difference. Are you aware that unemployment payments are taxable income?

    The actual numbers according to http://www.pollingreport.com/... are as follows:
    --------------------------

    "In those discussions, several budget plans have been proposed that would reduce the amount the government owes by trillions of dollars over the next ten years. If you had to choose, would you rather see Congress and President Obama agree to a budget plan that only includes cuts in government spending, or a budget plan that includes a combination of spending cuts and tax increases on higher-income Americans and some businesses?"

    Spending cuts only - 34%
    Spending cuts and tax increases - 64%

    "Based on what you have read or heard about the discussions between Congress a...




















    70% was a bit of an exaggeration, but not hardly as bad as your '60% who pay no taxes' BS. Everyone pays taxes. Everyone who has a job pays payroll taxes on the first dollar earned. If your granddaughter got a $4000 refund check that means that she paid taxes, first.

    Big AMT checks? WTF are you talking about? That stands for 'Alternate Minimum Tax' (implemented, BTW, by Ronald Reagan) which levies a minimum tax on those who have both large gross incomes and large expenses.

    Unemployed people get unemployment, not welfare. There is a huge difference. Are you aware that unemployment payments are taxable income?

    The actual numbers according to http://www.pollingreport.com/... are as follows:
    --------------------------

    "In those discussions, several budget plans have been proposed that would reduce the amount the government owes by trillions of dollars over the next ten years. If you had to choose, would you rather see Congress and President Obama agree to a budget plan that only includes cuts in government spending, or a budget plan that includes a combination of spending cuts and tax increases on higher-income Americans and some businesses?"

    Spending cuts only - 34%
    Spending cuts and tax increases - 64%

    "Based on what you have read or heard about the discussions between Congress and Barack Obama on the debt ceiling, do you think the Republicans in Congress have or have not acted responsibly?"

    Have - 33%
    Have Not - 63%

    "In some proposals, Congress would raise the debt ceiling while cutting between two trillion and four trillion dollars in government spending over the next ten years and raising taxes on some businesses and higher-income Americans. Would you favor or oppose this proposal?"

    Favor - 66%
    Oppose - 33%

    "In another proposal, Congress would give President Obama the ability to raise the debt ceiling several times in the next 18 months while cutting a smaller amount in government spending and not raising taxes at all. Would you favor or oppose this proposal?"

    Favor - 33%
    Oppose - 65%

    -----------------------------...

    I am a small businessman. I don't make $250,000. I may only know one or two people who make more than that a year after expenses, so I would like to know where you come up with your contention that this is the 'median' income for a small businessman.

    Now I am supposed to believe that a union forced you to pay your employees $25/hour while you earned only $5.00?

    You know what, buddy? Your post is riddled with so many factual inaccuracies that I don't believe a word of what you're saying. I think you're nothing but a bald faced liar.
    (more)
  • MadAsHEck Thom Payne 2011/07/27 21:59:46 (edited)
    MadAsHEck
    You are then below the average. This survey was in 2006.

    Salary.com did a survey in 2006 of business owners and CEO's salaries. "According to the survey, the national average salary for the CEO/Partner/Owner job function is $258,400"

    A Doctor or Lawyer for example is a small business. the can make in the range of $500,000 an up.

    Sorry guy but that is a fact. The Union contract said my guys got $25.00 per hour, plus benes.

    My Daughter is a Teamster in the Convention business in Vegas. She gets $18 per hour to lay Carpet. And if they have her Supervise, she gets $35. Her husband Is a teamster, and sets up the booths. Gets about $20 per hour, Both of them on almost every job works overtime at Time and a half, on weekdays, and double time on Sat Sun and Holidays. They own a $600,000 home in the poshest part of Vegas. He owns a new Lexus, she a new Soul.

    You may be a small businessman, but if you hire 5 Union Workers, you as well will be in the same boat. My little shop by the way grossed $350,000 the last year befor I quit. By the time all taxes, FICA, Workmens Comp, state licensing and taxes, county fees, overhead and inventory, Union dues (I had to deducte them and pay the union), Health insurance (cheap then at $500 per employee per month), Accountants fees, Salari...









    You are then below the average. This survey was in 2006.

    Salary.com did a survey in 2006 of business owners and CEO's salaries. "According to the survey, the national average salary for the CEO/Partner/Owner job function is $258,400"

    A Doctor or Lawyer for example is a small business. the can make in the range of $500,000 an up.

    Sorry guy but that is a fact. The Union contract said my guys got $25.00 per hour, plus benes.

    My Daughter is a Teamster in the Convention business in Vegas. She gets $18 per hour to lay Carpet. And if they have her Supervise, she gets $35. Her husband Is a teamster, and sets up the booths. Gets about $20 per hour, Both of them on almost every job works overtime at Time and a half, on weekdays, and double time on Sat Sun and Holidays. They own a $600,000 home in the poshest part of Vegas. He owns a new Lexus, she a new Soul.

    You may be a small businessman, but if you hire 5 Union Workers, you as well will be in the same boat. My little shop by the way grossed $350,000 the last year befor I quit. By the time all taxes, FICA, Workmens Comp, state licensing and taxes, county fees, overhead and inventory, Union dues (I had to deducte them and pay the union), Health insurance (cheap then at $500 per employee per month), Accountants fees, Salaried secretary, Inventory tax, material purchases etc.

    The last year I cleared about $32,000. Just a bit over $5.00 per hour based on just a normal 40 hour week, and 50 week per year. assuming I got a 2 week vavation, which I did not, but my guys did.

    This is from a recent article. Mine was over 10 years ago.

    "Overall, union mechanics earn about $17 more in wages and benefits at $33.64 an hour compared with $16.27 an hour for non-union mechanics in Las Vegas, a union advertisement says. The $16.27 an hour figure includes a deduction of $2.95 an hour for health insurance that Las Vegas technicians have to pay, union organizers said."

    And here's another business man with his take on the regulatory situation. "I Quit"

    http://conservativebyte.com/2...
    (more)
  • Thom Payne MadAsHEck 2011/07/28 19:15:10
    Thom Payne
    +1
    If you indexed the minimum wage in 1968 to the price of gold, the minimum wage today would be over $51.00/hour. None of the jobs you mentioned even came close to that.

    If you made $32,000 working 50 hour weeks with no vacation you still made $12.30, not $5.00. No wonder you couldn't make it running your own business.

    You also are never forced to hire union workers unless you (voluntarily) entered into a contract agreeing to do so.

    The top 20 CEOs were compensated $496,740,000 by their companies. That means that in order to average $250,000 it would take 2,250 CEOs making $32,000 to even it out. Does that mean that most of the 2,270 CEOs in my study made $250,000 or more?

    You know what, bud....I don't believe you.
  • MadAsHEck Thom Payne 2011/07/28 20:21:19
    MadAsHEck
    Actually in Nevada, you cannot hire a decent Mechanic without going through the Union. And hiring Scabs will cause picketing of your business.

    And you definately cannot work at the Convention Bureau without being a Teamster. Nevada is not a Right To Work State. Neither is Washington. Try to get a job at Boeing without joining the union. The average wage a Machinist makes is $27 per hour, as of about a year ago when Boeing last released that figure to the union.

    Average means the middle between the Top earner, and the bottom earner.

    And I'm speaking bottom line based on my Accounting pages. The one thing I forgot to mention, was that my wife worked alongside me for no salary, and we filed our personal jointly. Which is where I based the $5.00 per hour there , and I'm sorry my estimation was a bit exagerated by a couple of dollars.

    Using the old libreral shell game to make a point when statistics show you wrong. My figures were from the IRS Database for 2009. What does that have to do with anything? We havent been on the gold standard for years.

    And 20 CEOs are way less than 1% of the total taxpayers. making your calculations even more Bogus. standard years 20 ceos 1 total taxpayers calculations bogus

    Bottom Line anybody in SH that call someone a lyer is vioating the rules, and actually good manners.

    Bu Bye!
  • Thom Payne Thom Payne 2011/07/29 01:10:28
    Thom Payne
    +1
    MadAsHEck - not only are you a liar you're a coward. Blocking me after I proved you to be a liar is just wrong - but then, again, you are a neocon...so what should I have expected?

    The reason you can't get on at Boeing without joining the union is because the employees voted and it is an organized union shop. The reason you can't work at the Convention Bureau is the same reason.

    So what if a machinist makes $27 per hour? Aren't you neocons always advocating that a person should get paid as much as they possibly can? Oh, that's right...that's for investors, heirs and upper management, right?

    Your political masters have convinced you that any policy which helps the little guy get ahead are somehow just wrong.
  • MadAsHEck Thom Payne 2011/07/27 22:25:50
    MadAsHEck
    Number of Americans Paying Zero Federal Income Tax Grows to 43.4 Million

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/...
  • Thom Payne MadAsHEck 2011/07/28 19:22:23
    Thom Payne
    This is what happens when supply side economics makes it lucrative for companies to send jobs overseas.
  • MadAsHEck Thom Payne 2011/07/27 21:46:52 (edited)
    MadAsHEck
    The president is using figures to show saving, for things that have not happened yet, and may not happen at all. Like the drawdown in Afghanistan to start later this year, MAYBE.

    And please show me whare 70% of the people want a tax increase. Must be the 70 % that pay little or no taxes I would assume. Those that do not want their welfare, and food stamps held up.
  • Thom Payne MadAsHEck 2011/07/28 19:22:59
    Thom Payne
    I already did...and it was 64%.
  • Rore73 2011/07/23 13:54:47
    It sounds awesome
    Rore73
    +2
    BRING IT ON!
  • Resp 2011/07/23 13:35:14
    It sounds awesome
    Resp
    +1
    I think it sounds great! Government run anything is awful. Privatize all the services and put people to work.
  • Dugger712 Resp 2011/07/23 17:50:31
    Dugger712
    Lord please forgive him because he knows not what he does.
  • Resp Dugger712 2011/07/23 23:01:05
    Resp
    Less government is better. Originally Government was run on contributions and donations! Then they started taxing the public. It got worse ever since. Government has become Frankenstein.
  • Pookie 2011/07/23 13:27:45
    It sounds awesome
    Pookie
    If the 40% less government entails removing a good portion right wing/republican/tea party it would be excellant. Perfect way to get this nation sailing straight!
  • Mtnsmith Pookie 2011/07/23 14:18:10
    Mtnsmith
    +2
    Odd comment, since the Repubs/Tea Party folks are the ones who want smaller government to begin with, and the Dems are the ones who have increased our total debt from $9 trillion in $2008 to $14 trillion today....
  • Pookie Mtnsmith 2011/07/23 16:21:56
    Pookie
    Cut the government spending on two unneccesary wars and pork barrel waste! A lot of this is from your cronies! Put the $ to helping US citizens!
  • Mtnsmith Pookie 2011/07/26 00:33:53
    Mtnsmith
    US citizens get plenty of help... the lion's share of all gov't spending is entitlements.
  • Pookie Mtnsmith 2011/07/26 00:37:33
    Pookie
    There's a ****load of money going for three military actions and aid to friendly nations. There are still people starving here. Not too many right wingers, a lot of those I see look like a gym membership wouldn't kill them.
  • Mtnsmith Pookie 2011/07/26 00:48:39
    Mtnsmith
    Sorry... entitlements make up the biggest percentage of the budget. And no, Americans are not 'starving'. Look up a picture of Darfur or Sudan if you want to see what starvation looks like. Americans have access to a host of government feeding programs.
  • Pookie Mtnsmith 2011/07/26 00:53:07
    Pookie
    But look first at america. There are people close to my area. I feel you should clean up your own $%#@ before you go into a worldwide cleaning operation.
  • Mtnsmith Pookie 2011/07/26 13:46:37
    Mtnsmith
    Good point.
  • Pookie Mtnsmith 2011/07/26 13:58:52
    Pookie
    Thanks! Always nice to hear some sanity out there!
  • Dugger712 Mtnsmith 2011/07/23 17:52:33
    Dugger712
    Two trillion of that was from two wars that were never paid for or put on the books.
  • MadAsHEck Dugger712 2011/07/23 18:52:23
    MadAsHEck
    You need to look at the true cost of the Stimulus package. Makes the 2 wars look like chump change.

    Look up how much of your taxpayer dollars was lost just in bailing out GM and Chrysler. Both of whom are either leaving the country, or being sold at a big loss to the Taxpayers.

    We took a 19 billion dollar loss on the GM Stocks we bought and sold.

    Notwithstanding the money we paid to cover the Union Retirement Debts that both companies owned. An of course $24,000 per Cash for Clunker that was taken care of. And now $7500 for every Electric Nissan and Chev Volt that is sold.
  • Dugger712 MadAsHEck 2011/07/24 18:40:51
    Dugger712
    Chrysler has already paid back their loan. GM is paying their loan back. American jobs were saved. You know America the country we are supposed to love and be happy for when we have a success story.
  • MadAsHEck Dugger712 2011/07/24 19:21:31 (edited)
    MadAsHEck
    Chrysler did not pay back their loan completely. Neither did GM plus we took a big loss on the selling of the GM stocks we lost something like $23 per share on 500 million shares. That was how they were paying their loan back, in Shares.

    Most of the Money they got was actually given over to the Union Pension funds that had them ins so much trouble to begin with. That was handled in Bankruptcy, and we the Taxpayers ended up paying that off. Thats pretty much where the 40 Billion went.

    "Although taxpayers may recover some portion of their investment in Chrysler and GM, it is unlikely they will recover the entire amount. The estimates of loss vary. Treasury estimates that approximately $23 billion of the initial loans made will be subject to much lower recoveries. Approximately $5.4 billion of the loans extended to the old Chrysler company are highly unlikely to be recovered.

    The Congressional Budget Office earlier calculated a subsidy rate of 73 percent for all automotive industry support under TARP and recently raised its estimate of the cost of that assistance by approximately $40 billion over the previous estimate."

    $40 Billion dollar loss is a pretty signifigant loss, sounds like it wasn't really paid back to me. Then there was the cost of $24,000 for every cash for...



    Chrysler did not pay back their loan completely. Neither did GM plus we took a big loss on the selling of the GM stocks we lost something like $23 per share on 500 million shares. That was how they were paying their loan back, in Shares.

    Most of the Money they got was actually given over to the Union Pension funds that had them ins so much trouble to begin with. That was handled in Bankruptcy, and we the Taxpayers ended up paying that off. Thats pretty much where the 40 Billion went.

    "Although taxpayers may recover some portion of their investment in Chrysler and GM, it is unlikely they will recover the entire amount. The estimates of loss vary. Treasury estimates that approximately $23 billion of the initial loans made will be subject to much lower recoveries. Approximately $5.4 billion of the loans extended to the old Chrysler company are highly unlikely to be recovered.

    The Congressional Budget Office earlier calculated a subsidy rate of 73 percent for all automotive industry support under TARP and recently raised its estimate of the cost of that assistance by approximately $40 billion over the previous estimate."

    $40 Billion dollar loss is a pretty signifigant loss, sounds like it wasn't really paid back to me. Then there was the cost of $24,000 for every cash for clunker we took in the shorts.

    Actually the only thing that was paid fully Back was the original TARP money that was loaned to the Banks to get them through the Financial crisis. That was paid back in April and we are nos taking in the Interest from that.

    "Most of the big banks have repaid the government funds they received under the Capital Purchase Program (CPP), the pillar of TARP under which Treasury bought preferred shares in the nation's banks. Enough so that, combined with dividends and sales of warrants, Treasury has declared that taxpayers have earned a profit on the CPP. Thus far, $245 billion has gone out, and $255 billion in repayments, interest and warrants has come back, yielding a profit to taxpayers of $10 billion. And there's several billion more where that came from."
    (more)
  • Mtnsmith Dugger712 2011/07/26 00:32:18
    Mtnsmith
    Fair enough. So the current administration has only run up 3 trillion in debt since 2008. Still pretty impressive.....
  • sketchbone 2011/07/23 13:27:42
    It sounds awesome
    sketchbone
    +3
    HOUSING and COLLEGE would be MORE AFFORDABLE if the government(taxpayer) didn't subsidize so much of it. housing college affordable governmenttaxpayer subsidize taxpayer revolt
  • OnlyOneWing 2011/07/23 13:07:32
    It sounds dismal
    OnlyOneWing
    +2
    Seriously, the reason why the government is so large is because there is a LOT of work to do! If there is no "section 8" then there are going to be a lot of homeless people...and crime is going to skyrocket! If I or my loved ones are starving there is nothing I wouldn't do for survival. It's human nature, survival instinct. Everyone has it... Why do you think that civil wars break out and governments get toppled? It's because people have no other means of support or hope.
  • Risk OnlyOne... 2011/07/23 14:28:45
    Risk
    +3
    The problem is the government take 4-5 people to do a job that a private business would only require 1 person to do !
  • OnlyOne... Risk 2011/07/23 15:38:41
    OnlyOneWing
    +1
    That's not necessarily true. For each private company needed to perform a particular task it will bring about new logistics and require more management. So it would probably create more jobs...that will be less stable. Also, I believe there is more opportunity for corruption or scamming with private corporations running government programs. Also, remember...when you cut jobs from government you are cutting jobs for ordinary people...It doesn't affect any of the people who make decisions.
  • Risk OnlyOne... 2011/07/23 17:07:01
    Risk
    It's VERY evident that you have never owned a business, know nothing or very little about how a private business works and have NO IDEA at all the monsters that our government creates and the post office is a very good example even though that is just one example.
    As far as cutting government jobs, if that was the answer why don't we all work for the government and we can all have a job and just borrow the money from China to pay them ? That idea is as intelligent as both your comments on this subject !
  • OnlyOne... Risk 2011/07/24 01:29:34
    OnlyOneWing
    Irony, because I am a business owner. lmao What I am saying is that the government should manage government programs. They shouldn't contract out, because that leaves more room for corruption.

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