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How do you make a woman more fair? Give them testosterone!

holdenferall 2011/04/20 01:13:45
Related Topics: Own
From the BBC
Testosterone link to aggression 'all in the mind'

Giving women more of the male hormone testosterone can turn them into fairer and more amiable game players, according to tests.

A
single dose of testosterone was enough to have this effect, European
scientists found, but only if the woman was oblivious to the treatment.

If she realised she had received the hormone and not a dummy drug, she turned to greed and selfishness.

The work in Nature magazine suggests the mind can win over hormones.

Testosterone
induces anti-social behaviour in humans, but only because of our own
prejudices about its effect rather than its biological activity, suggest
the authors.

They believe the same is true in men, although they only studied women.

Power of suggestion

For the study, they asked more than 120 women to pair up and play an "ultimatum" bargaining game with real money at stake.

In
the game, one of the pair is the "proposer" and is tasked with
suggesting to the other player - the responder - how to split the money
between them.

The responder can then only accept or reject the offer.





















If they reject it, neither of the pair gets any of the cash.

The
researchers gave the proposers either a dummy pill or one containing
testosterone, but did not tell the women which pill they had been given.

Once they had played the game, the proposers were asked to say which pill they thought they had taken.

Those who received testosterone behaved more fairly, had fewer bargaining conflicts and were better at social interactions.

However,
women who thought that they had received testosterone, whether or not
they actually did, behaved more unfairly than those who thought that
they had received placebo, again whether or not they actually did.

The
researchers, led by Ernst Fehr of the University of Zurich,
Switzerland, said the results suggested a case of "mind over matter"
with the brain overriding body chemistry.

"Whereas other animals
may be predominantly under the influence of biological factors such as
hormones, biology seems to exert less control over human behaviour,"
they said.

UK endocrinologist Professor Ashley Grossman said: "This puts hormones in their place.

"Hormones
provide a basic backdrop, but changes in levels will do little to
behaviour compared to personality, culture and society."

Read More: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8400172.stm

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  • Yuki ~ ♦Lion King of PHÆT♦ 2011/04/20 18:24:40
    Yuki ~ ♦Lion King of PHÆT♦
    -rolls eyes-

    It's been proven that giving men and women doses of testosterone does nothing but make them more highly sexed and even aggressive.

    In addition, biology exerts a great deal of control over human behavior. That's why some women completely flip our while menstruating and why others do not. Did these scientists document the other hormone levels in these women? Check the medication they're taking? Medical background? Where's the necessary data? And how did they choose this pool of testers? This article leaves a lot out.
  • holdenf... Yuki ~ ... 2011/04/20 20:08:59
    holdenferall
    I'm sorry you perceive the findings of female endocrinologist as worthy of an "eye roll"
  • Yuki ~ ... holdenf... 2011/04/20 20:19:45
    Yuki ~ ♦Lion King of PHÆT♦
    I do. This study doesn't seem very reliable to me. There are too many factors that they haven't addressed.
  • holdenf... Yuki ~ ... 2011/04/20 20:21:42
    holdenferall
    I think that's the excuse you use to disagree with results you find unpalatable. I do think men are more fair, on average. Many females I know would agree with this.
  • Yuki ~ ... holdenf... 2011/04/20 20:25:36
    Yuki ~ ♦Lion King of PHÆT♦
    It's not that I find them unpalatable. That's not even close to my issue with this article. My issue is that they leave out too much data, the stuff they used to draw their conclusions, for me to agree with them. They also don't include the factors. They also apparently did not do this same test on men, which is a warning light going off in my brain.
  • holdenf... Yuki ~ ... 2011/04/20 20:29:01 (edited)
    holdenferall
    Then look up the procedures and see if your objections actually have any grounding. As of now you truly have no idea the exact test procedures used.

    The idea that not using men is a "warning light" has no basis. The "women became more amiable and fair on testosterone" idea is a secondary ruling in this study, not the outright purpose of conducting the study.
  • Yuki ~ ... holdenf... 2011/04/20 23:08:13
    Yuki ~ ♦Lion King of PHÆT♦
    It has perfectly sound basis. Men and womens' brains function differently. That is a recognized fact. It also happens that men and womens' brains are naturally saturated with different chemicals and hormones-- e.g: womens' with progesterone and estrogen, men with androgen and testosterone. There is also the possibility that their brains are hardwired to respond differently to different chemicals and pheromones, which would likely make an experiment involving men very different from one involving women.

    Perhaps testosterone really does make women more fair or rather more inclined to generosity. In the instances I've read in which women have taken doses of testosterone, it hasn't mentioned a thing about increased aggression. So it's quite possible, in addition to making them more highly sexed, that it also makes them more 'fair'.

    But that doesn't rule out testosterone as a ignitor in male aggression, which is why an identical study should have been done on males. I'm not ruling out this article's conclusions, because they could be right; I just haven't seen the parts of the report that usually help me make up my mind, and they didn't do an identical study on men, so providing this one single-gender study on the gender that is not naturally supplied with a lot of testosterone...



    It has perfectly sound basis. Men and womens' brains function differently. That is a recognized fact. It also happens that men and womens' brains are naturally saturated with different chemicals and hormones-- e.g: womens' with progesterone and estrogen, men with androgen and testosterone. There is also the possibility that their brains are hardwired to respond differently to different chemicals and pheromones, which would likely make an experiment involving men very different from one involving women.

    Perhaps testosterone really does make women more fair or rather more inclined to generosity. In the instances I've read in which women have taken doses of testosterone, it hasn't mentioned a thing about increased aggression. So it's quite possible, in addition to making them more highly sexed, that it also makes them more 'fair'.

    But that doesn't rule out testosterone as a ignitor in male aggression, which is why an identical study should have been done on males. I'm not ruling out this article's conclusions, because they could be right; I just haven't seen the parts of the report that usually help me make up my mind, and they didn't do an identical study on men, so providing this one single-gender study on the gender that is not naturally supplied with a lot of testosterone as grounds for making an overall statement that "Hormones provide a basic backdrop, but changes in levels will do little to behaviour compared to personality, culture and society" is not adequate for me.

    So basically? I'm reserving judgement on their report, and I don't agree with their conclusion on the roles of hormones.

    The article is not their lab report. It does not provide the exact percentages of females in each category and with each response. It has not provided the factors and error margins that are always taken into consideration. So of course I'm rolling my eyes-- I don't have enough here to be able to nod, smile, and agree!
    (more)
  • Centurion~PWCM~JLA 2011/04/20 04:25:05
    Centurion~PWCM~JLA
    +1
    Going by life experience rather than any article.

    "Treat her like a lady!!!"
  • holdenf... Centuri... 2011/04/20 04:27:13
    holdenferall
    While I agree with your statement, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.
  • Centuri... holdenf... 2011/04/20 04:30:42
    Centurion~PWCM~JLA
    +1
    Some basics,

    pull her chair out for her,

    open the doors for her, both car and building,

    hold her coat for her,

    step between her and the car driving through a puddle.

    let her know she is the greatest thing that ever came into your life.

    Does that help?
  • holdenf... Centuri... 2011/04/20 04:33:10
    holdenferall
    I definitely do those and have been taught to do so, but I'm not sure what it means in respect to the fairness judgment.
  • Centuri... holdenf... 2011/04/20 05:38:38
    Centurion~PWCM~JLA
    O.K.

    I'm thinking in a different context of "fair" as in, she is my fair lady, chivalry and those things that our dads taught us.

    My mistake, but do you see my point now? Thank you for helping me to see it.
  • sglmom 2011/04/20 04:17:18
    sglmom
    +1
    Here's my thoughts ..

    Although it is implying that a single dose of Testosterone is somehow .. allowing these women to proceed more /fairly/ in the disposition of a 'reward' during this experiment ..

    I have to wonder ...

    Could be what they say ..

    BUT ..

    It could also mean that these women (as part of their natural personality) were morally more 'fair' to begin with (since I don't see where this consideration was factored in or even discussed for testing...)
  • holdenf... sglmom 2011/04/20 04:20:35 (edited)
    holdenferall
    Those are valid points, though I'm not sure how you would control for such a variable as personality traits.

    I find it very interesting, and insightful, that you apply the term "reward." I do think that the idea of "reward" is stronger within the male sex.
  • sglmom holdenf... 2011/04/20 04:23:07
    sglmom
    +1
    AH ... you'd be surprised at how 'reward' is perceived by the female sex ..

    I'd control by re-testing all these women once again .. placebo to the ones that had the Testosterone and see if they continued to be "fair" in their settlements (if that is the same results with the Testosterone (or even close) .. that would invalidate these /results/ quite quickly).
  • holdenf... sglmom 2011/04/20 04:25:47 (edited)
    holdenferall
    +1
    I'm not sure I'd be surprised, per se. I guess it's more perceptible in the male sex. But again, you make a very valid point. Perhaps our (as in males) "reward drive" is more outwardly perceptible.

    I'll have to look at the study more closely and see if they mixed it up as you suggested. I do believe they did account for this variable, but I am not entirely sure.
  • sglmom holdenf... 2011/04/20 04:32:06
    sglmom
    +1
    THANKS .. the way I read it .. they had control Group, Variable Testosterone, Variable Placebo ..

    and there's NO MENTION of re-testing the Variable Testosterone with Variable Placebo .. or Variable Placebo with Variable Testosterone ..

    (TO me .. that would be what I Would do in MY Research Studies .. I never leave out any possible hypotheses or questions just dangling withOUT at least some look at them for the sake of study validity).
  • AFVET65 2011/04/20 02:11:32
    AFVET65
    +2
    OY VEY! Why don't you just call all women goofy and be done with it! Women don't need drugs! They are just fine without them. Geez! What has this world come too?
  • holdenf... AFVET65 2011/04/20 02:16:02
    holdenferall
    +1
    Did you read the article? The study is actually more interested in determining if the brain can override hormonal changes. It's certainly not condoning or suggesting any sort of hormonal therapy.
  • AFVET65 holdenf... 2011/04/20 02:24:56
    AFVET65
    +1
    Yes, I read it and a hundred other studies done. That's great that they can make women more fair, LOL, I don't agree with messin with nature, at all. Women are women, leave their brains alone, they have enough problems without anyones help in trying to fix the unfixable. Let them buy their shoes and makeup, if it makes them happy, everyone wins.
  • holdenf... AFVET65 2011/04/20 02:26:15 (edited)
    holdenferall
    +1
    This study in no way promotes "messin with nature." It's a test performed under a single dose. We test drugs all the time on people during medical trials and no one claims it as messing with nature. The only reason people approach this particular study in this way is because it can be perceived as having taboo repercussions or tells.
  • AFVET65 holdenf... 2011/04/20 02:29:29
    AFVET65
    +2
    Understood! I know what it is like to be used a test subject. I didn't like the outcome.
  • holdenf... AFVET65 2011/04/20 02:30:28
    holdenferall
    +1
    Fair enough. Sorry if you took my comments as preaching.

    Have a nice evening.
  • AFVET65 holdenf... 2011/04/20 02:43:48
    AFVET65
    +2
    I took no offense what so ever! You asked a good question, based on interesting results of a test. Good job!
  • l8rthen 2011/04/20 01:34:17
    l8rthen
    +2
    Interesting, holdenferall. Neat.
  • holdenf... l8rthen 2011/04/20 01:35:44
    holdenferall
    +2
    Thank you. Finally someone who appreciates these findings. I think they're rather intriguing.
  • toosweet 2011/04/20 01:28:42
    toosweet
    +3
    Millions of women take testosterone daily and have for decades,It's called the BIRTH CONTROL PILL! the only side affects I have noticed were A few narley nipple hairs and they are plucked easily enough.
  • Alex Oger toosweet 2011/04/20 01:30:14
    Alex Oger
    +3
    !lol ! I hated it that when it used to happen
  • holdenf... toosweet 2011/04/20 01:31:57 (edited)
    holdenferall
    +1
    I'm not an expert on BC pills, but I'm pretty sure birth control pills reduce the amount of testosterone in a woman's body.
  • toosweet holdenf... 2011/04/20 01:34:56
    toosweet
    +1
    I could be wrong,wouldn't be the first time,But I am right about them hairy nipples! lol!
  • holdenf... toosweet 2011/04/20 01:36:13
    holdenferall
    +1
    Ha, well I hope I have better luck with you in terms of the hairy nipple thing.
  • Alex Oger 2011/04/20 01:24:41
    Alex Oger
    +1
    ? are you nuts not only will yuo have hanibbal lecter but youll throw in a bit off she hulk in there. look pal youll just complicate your problems
  • holdenf... Alex Oger 2011/04/20 01:28:26
    holdenferall
    Honestly guys, these were very small, single doses.

    Women create testosterone naturally as well.
  • Omnibus Annie 2011/04/20 01:23:40
    Omnibus Annie
    +2
    This study is flawed. Hormones are nothing to be messed with.
    Thank goodness for guinea pigs willing to take the risk though.
  • holdenf... Omnibus... 2011/04/20 01:27:08 (edited)
    holdenferall
    +1
    How is the study flawed?

    The fact remains that the women became more fair in their dealing when under the influence of just a small amount of testosterone.

    Women create testosterone naturally. This test merely elevated their levels for a very short period of time.
  • CUDDLY BUT STILL CRABBY 2011/04/20 01:20:09
    CUDDLY BUT STILL CRABBY
    +3
    Whoa! I'm not a physician but I know enough to say that giving women testosterone and men estrogen on a repeated basis causes major problems in the long run. Once or twice for a study OK I can live with that. Beyond that .......... I dunno. Sounds like playing with fire to me.
  • holdenf... CUDDLY ... 2011/04/20 01:21:46
    holdenferall
    +2
    Yes, it does.

    I'm not advocating doing that. I'm making a point.
  • Lily Blooms Eternal 2011/04/20 01:15:12
    Lily Blooms Eternal
    +4
    LOL! Get ready to do some ducking when this one gets around!
  • holdenf... Lily Bl... 2011/04/20 01:16:29
    holdenferall
    +2
    I believe a female endocrinologist headed up this study.
  • Lily Bl... holdenf... 2011/04/20 04:42:05
    Lily Blooms Eternal
    +1
    Oh, OK. LOL. I'm not offended myself but you know how testy some gals can get.....

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