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German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault. Agree or Disagree?

ServantOfAllah 2012/06/27 02:21:41
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Circumcising young boys on religious grounds amounts to grievous bodily harm, a German court ruled Tuesday in a landmark decision.
The regional court in Cologne, western Germany, ruled that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents", a judgement that is expected to set a legal precedent.
German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault. Agree or Disagree?

Read More: http://news.yahoo.com/german-court-outlaws-religio...

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  • edifyguy Robbb 2012/07/10 14:18:49
    edifyguy
    +1
    Well, I think that the "sexual satisfaction" argument is silly. I am very sexually satisfied......unless my wife is visiting family without me, like she did last week. :/ "Assault" is typically understood to be an action which is violent, and causes lasting harm to the victim. Circumcision is not violent, and I furthermore do not believe that it causes any lasting harm.



    Your illustration of blind and sighted is silly. My willy is not without sensation, as you seem to believe. I can see where it might feel things differently, were it intact, but I can still very decidedly "see the sunset," so to speak.
  • Robbb edifyguy 2012/07/10 20:25:00
    Robbb
    +1
    In that case you can argue hat having an arm chopped of is not a violent act, so long as it heals up and you get used to living without it. And It would be better to do it to a new born because the presumably don’t remember it. So, what makes you think that chopping a piece of a Childs anatomy of is not violent? For that matter why do you think it does no lasting harm, honestly, how much time have personally spent looking into the accuracy of what you are saying? I understand you are not without sensation, never the less, you have nothing to compare with. And if you can see that as you say it might feel things differently then who should have the right to do this to a child. As there is certainly no advantage to either health or convenience in having this modification forced upon you. A significant part of the urologists work is the repair and adjustment of circ botch-up’s children die as a direct result of the operation every year. If that does not indicate violence then what does? There is only one reason for circumcision and that is social conditioning and it is only social conditioning that is able to make a violent act acceptable.

    There is a lot said about this subject and perhaps you have not encountered any of it before so perhaps the following site might be of interest ...
    In that case you can argue hat having an arm chopped of is not a violent act, so long as it heals up and you get used to living without it. And It would be better to do it to a new born because the presumably don’t remember it. So, what makes you think that chopping a piece of a Childs anatomy of is not violent? For that matter why do you think it does no lasting harm, honestly, how much time have personally spent looking into the accuracy of what you are saying? I understand you are not without sensation, never the less, you have nothing to compare with. And if you can see that as you say it might feel things differently then who should have the right to do this to a child. As there is certainly no advantage to either health or convenience in having this modification forced upon you. A significant part of the urologists work is the repair and adjustment of circ botch-up’s children die as a direct result of the operation every year. If that does not indicate violence then what does? There is only one reason for circumcision and that is social conditioning and it is only social conditioning that is able to make a violent act acceptable.

    There is a lot said about this subject and perhaps you have not encountered any of it before so perhaps the following site might be of interest to you, I chose this particular site because the Jewish people are probably most fanatical about this, especially in the USA. (Circumcision: A Source of Jewish Pain http://www.jewishcircumcision...
    (more)
  • edifyguy Robbb 2012/07/12 18:33:21
    edifyguy
    I have studied it, some years ago. Again, your comparisons make no sense. Chopping off an arm would be comparable to chopping off a penis, not removing a skin flap. It is unfair to call removing a skin sheath "chopping a piece of a Childs anatomy." To your credit, you are using hyperbolic comparisons because you have no other option: there is no similar procedure to which it could be compared.



    I do understand why you take the position you do, and I respect your right to choose not to circumcise your children if you feel that this would be better for them. My own son is not circumcised—not because I felt that it would be wrong, but because I didn't see a reason to do it. My Faith teaches that "circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing." If, however, someone feels that there is a religious or health-related reason to circumcise their child, as I was, I see nothing wrong with that.
  • Robbb edifyguy 2012/07/12 20:31:08
    Robbb
    I would be intersted in that case what you learned about the nature of the prepuce that con vinces you that the removal of same is not harmfull. As you may have learned the foreskin is more then just a piece of uniform skin. It is a fairly complex piece of equipment with diferent parts that distinct functions. The fact that your faith shows you this or that is beside the point. if your faith showed you that your child needs a crucifix tatood on its forehead does that mean you should be free to do that as well in order to show how religious you (not the child) are?
    The fact is that I at no time chose not to have my sons circumcised, the thought that there needed a choice to be made in that regard came no closer to the surface of my mind then the need to have them scarified at some stage during their lives. As for health related isues there are none or at least there are not acording to mainsream medical opinion. And evidence is mounting that it is in fact harmful and in some cased deadly. Why should a parent have the right to istruct someone to cut away a piece of a childs anatomy becauase they have a religious or an ill founded medical belief. many men that were genitaly mutilated as children resent what has happened to them and I can only sympathise with then as they were asaulted it a time during their lives when they could not resist.
  • edifyguy Robbb 2012/07/13 20:42:52
    edifyguy
    As I said, I do understand your position. I myself have no such resentment, and believe that most normal men won't give it a second thought unless someone makes it an issue. Neither of us is going to change the other's mind, so we might as well call a truce.
  • Robbb edifyguy 2012/07/13 21:23:28
    Robbb
    Normal men are not circumcised though. Normal men don’t have the inclination to mutilate a part of their Childs body. Normal men would see doing something like that as an assault. and that is the situation that the judge in Germany was faced with. I see myself as a normal man and believe me if I went into hospital to have some procedure done and a doctor with religious zeal decided to circumcise me while he was at it, I would most certainly give it a second thought. as would More then 80% of the worlds men who are normally not circumcised, because not being circumcised is normal. The fact is that tattooing a crucifix on a Childs forehead is les physically harmful then deliberate genital mutilation and according to your reasoning that so long as you personally don’t mind it being done to you it should be ok for it to be done to everyone regardless of what they my feel about it later on.
    ..
  • edifyguy Robbb 2012/07/13 21:44:17
    edifyguy
    No, I merely used myself as an illustration to show that the practice is not universally harmful.



    As I said, we aren't going to agree.
  • Robbb edifyguy 2012/07/13 22:18:44
    Robbb
    But how can you judge as you have nothing to compare with. Besides Even the removal of limbs or perhaps an ear , so long as it is done in a civilised and professional method is not harmful.. However if it is done against a persons will is assault. I would say that when you consider that an infant needs to by tied down to perform this procedure should indicate that it is being forced on them and that makes it assault.
  • Vijay Pawar 2012/06/27 12:53:04
    Agree
    Vijay Pawar
    +1
    When the court has given a verdict it must have seen all facts & figures.
  • Racefish 2012/06/27 11:33:06
    Disagree
    Racefish
    That would also have to include doctors who do it specifically for prophylactic purposes, even though there's no proof it helps.
  • Servant... Racefish 2012/06/27 12:07:32
    ServantOfAllah
    +2
    it says medical reasons are acceptable
  • Racefish Servant... 2012/06/27 17:57:23
    Racefish
    Then why aren't religious reasons acceptable? Witch doctors used to not only be the religious leaders but physicians as well. On that basis, we can only assume this is aimed at Jews and Muslims.
  • Servant... Racefish 2012/06/27 18:29:10
    ServantOfAllah
    idk It did not say what kind of medical reasons were acceptable.
  • Robbb Racefish 2012/07/13 21:52:22
    Robbb
    I would say it is aimed at residents and citizens of the country. This was an interpretation of the law it was not the introduction of a new law. It stands to reason that if a child gets an ailment that in the opinion of a trained medical authority requires treatment to protect the health of that child that it would be reasonable to intervene with an operation to remedy the problem. However with circumcision this is not the case, on the contrary in the first place there are the usual risks that exist in any procedure ranging from a bad outcome after healing to infection or excessive bleeding and death. Once completed the procedure has a marked effect on the way the penis works and feels and interacts with its environment. Granted Jews and Muslims are by far the most numerous victims of male genital mutilation and they stand beside other groups of primitive tribal cultural groups elsewhere in the world. However The English speaking countries took this up for non religious reasons on advice from physicians during the Victorian era the practice is diminishing however it became so culturally and economically entrenched in the US that it is still widely done regardless of the opinion of those it is being done to. Put your self in the shoes of the judge that had to rule on this issu...
    I would say it is aimed at residents and citizens of the country. This was an interpretation of the law it was not the introduction of a new law. It stands to reason that if a child gets an ailment that in the opinion of a trained medical authority requires treatment to protect the health of that child that it would be reasonable to intervene with an operation to remedy the problem. However with circumcision this is not the case, on the contrary in the first place there are the usual risks that exist in any procedure ranging from a bad outcome after healing to infection or excessive bleeding and death. Once completed the procedure has a marked effect on the way the penis works and feels and interacts with its environment. Granted Jews and Muslims are by far the most numerous victims of male genital mutilation and they stand beside other groups of primitive tribal cultural groups elsewhere in the world. However The English speaking countries took this up for non religious reasons on advice from physicians during the Victorian era the practice is diminishing however it became so culturally and economically entrenched in the US that it is still widely done regardless of the opinion of those it is being done to. Put your self in the shoes of the judge that had to rule on this issue. He had to start with the assumption that the law is responsible for the protection of the children that live under that law. People slicing bits of other people regardless of how well intentioned the slicing is can only be seen as an assault. whether that child has Jewish Muslim or aboriginal parents. by the way the tradition with Australian aboriginals it to take out not only the foreskin but the whole of the skin down the trunk as well, right up to where the hair would start to grow. But hey it's ok because it is a cultural tradition isn’t it.
    (more)
  • Racefish Robbb 2012/07/15 15:35:34
    Racefish
    You've put the best argument forward. By the way, I sure wouldn't want to be an Abbo.
  • Flash,aka,Mr.Lightning 2012/06/27 11:09:24
    Disagree
    Flash,aka,Mr.Lightning
    +4
    Outside of any religion medical science will tell you circumcision prevents diesease.
  • Servant... Flash,a... 2012/06/27 12:08:12
    ServantOfAllah
    +5
    so does cutting one's head off.
  • Flash,a... Servant... 2012/06/27 12:55:54
    Flash,aka,Mr.Lightning
    So you are against medical science?
  • Servant... Flash,a... 2012/06/27 13:02:33
    ServantOfAllah
    +6
    i'm against freaks mutilating people's genitals
  • irish -... Flash,a... 2012/06/27 13:13:31
    irish -liberty or death!
    +2
    that isn't true.circumcision was introduced in English-speaking countries in the late 1800s to control or prevent masturbation.
  • toni irish -... 2012/06/27 16:19:45
    toni
    +2
    Ask any circumcised guy. It didn't prevent masturbation. It just took longer to get the desired result.
  • irish -... toni 2012/06/28 12:02:48
    irish -liberty or death!
    +1
    i only stated the claim they made for it.
  • Robbb irish -... 2012/07/15 20:02:17
  • Robbb Flash,a... 2012/07/15 19:54:36
    Robbb
    Accepted Medical science does not claim circumcision prevent disease. However If you can come up with any specific examples of this I would be interested in hearing about it. I personally am all for the expansion of medical science. Medical sciences are coming to an understanding of medical issues according to the rules of scientific evidence.
  • kudabux Servant... 2012/06/27 14:05:52
    kudabux
    +1
    Good one!!
  • Servant... kudabux 2012/06/27 18:30:03
    ServantOfAllah
    +2
    lol works every time too!
  • irish -... Flash,a... 2012/06/27 13:11:50
    irish -liberty or death!
    +1
    thats totally false.
  • toni Flash,a... 2012/06/27 16:36:42
    toni
    +1
    There was a period of time when that was the a common belief amongst medical professionals, but I don't think it is true today.
  • Robbb toni 2012/07/13 22:01:53
    Robbb
    You must qualify that. (With British medical profession of the Victorian era). No medical profession anywhere in the world side from those led by the British advocates this procedure. They were influenced by Victorian Puritanism and a complete lack of scientific understanding. It spread from there to other british speaking countrys.It is also interesting to note that now circumcision for so called medical reasons has become a thing of the past in its birthplace Britain, Probably because it is so closely located to Europe where they scoff at the whole idea.
  • alicynx Flash,a... 2012/06/27 21:11:33
    alicynx
    +4
    That is also a lie. There have been no studies showing what diseases are prevented by not having a foreskin. Seriously. There *may* be a higher risk of infection if you don't clean yourself, but that is no justification at all for removing a piece of skin.
  • RogerCo... Flash,a... 2012/06/28 03:24:17
    RogerCoppock
    Where? I've looked at several science citation indexes and I can't find a single scientific article supporting circumcision. Can you help me?
  • Flash,a... RogerCo... 2012/06/28 10:18:39
  • RogerCo... Flash,a... 2012/06/29 20:43:43
    RogerCoppock
    "“I would not go out and advocate for widespread circumcision to prevent prostate cancer,” Wright continued, ”we see an association, but it doesn’t prove causality.”"
  • Robbb Flash,a... 2012/07/13 21:52:58
    Robbb
    No it does not.
  • DefendnProtect 2012/06/27 10:46:03
    Agree
    DefendnProtect
    +6
    Let the boys decide for themselves when they are old enough.
  • toni Defendn... 2012/06/27 16:17:08
    toni
    +1
    The problem with that is that under the law a person is not old enough to give consent until 18. I knew a boy who elected to be circumcised at 18. He suffered terribly for more than a month.
  • Defendn... toni 2012/06/27 17:16:37
    DefendnProtect
    +1
    Good reply. However I don't see cutting in genitals (being it Jewish boys or Muslim girls) is something that can be done without their consent. I hold the right of your own bodily integrity higher except on things like vaccinations which have an obvious medical basis. I do not think it is governments job to prosecute if boys or girls have some cutting in their genitals on an earlier age if they chose to do so.
  • BongRipper 2012/06/27 10:27:42
    Disagree
    BongRipper
    +4
    It's 2012, this shouldn't be an issue, I don't think there's one man who regrets their circumcision, it's not worth regretting. The same amount of medical issues can happen to both, what it really comes down to is personal hygiene, wash your willy, it's not that hard. Unless of course the circumciser chops off a large portion of the penis, but that's on the circumciser.
  • Servant... BongRipper 2012/06/27 10:38:50
    ServantOfAllah
    +4
    How many men have you asked?
  • BongRipper Servant... 2012/06/27 10:43:40
    BongRipper
    +2
    None, that's why I integrated the word "think" into my response. But that's totally something you would ask about, so how many have you asked?

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