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German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault. Agree or Disagree?

Foxhound BN0 2012/06/27 02:21:41
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Circumcising young boys on religious grounds amounts to grievous bodily harm, a German court ruled Tuesday in a landmark decision.
The regional court in Cologne, western Germany, ruled that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents", a judgement that is expected to set a legal precedent.
German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault. Agree or Disagree?

Read More: http://news.yahoo.com/german-court-outlaws-religio...

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  • kudabux Robbb 2012/07/01 21:38:38
    kudabux
    +1
    Exactly
  • Robbb Seonag 2012/06/29 23:31:23
  • Robbb Seonag 2012/07/01 20:38:58
    Robbb
    +2
    THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS
    Excerpts from Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective
    by Ronald Goldman, Ph.D.

    “I had profound doubts about my decision [to circumcise]. But because open discussion of Brit Milah seems to be discouraged in the Jewish community, I experienced my doubts privately and without comfort. . . . Thus, a rite intended to inspire feelings of Jewish unity evoked in me a sense of loss and alienation.”

    “If a woman is made to distrust her most basic instinct to protect her newborn child, what feelings can she ever trust?”

    “My tiny son and I sobbed our hearts out. . . . After everything I'd worked for, carrying and nurturing Joseph in the womb, having him at home against no small odds, keeping him by my side constantly since birth, nursing him whenever he needed closeness and nourishment-the circumcision was a horrible violation of all I felt we shared. I cried for days afterward.”

    “I have never heard such screams. . . . Will I ever know what scars this brings to your soul? . . . What is that new look I see in your eyes? I can see pain, a certain sadness, and a loss of trust.”

    “I've never even talked about this before-I thought I was the only one who worried about it.”

    “I heard him cry during the time they were circumcising him. The thing that is most disturbing to me i...



















    THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS
    Excerpts from Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective
    by Ronald Goldman, Ph.D.

    “I had profound doubts about my decision [to circumcise]. But because open discussion of Brit Milah seems to be discouraged in the Jewish community, I experienced my doubts privately and without comfort. . . . Thus, a rite intended to inspire feelings of Jewish unity evoked in me a sense of loss and alienation.”

    “If a woman is made to distrust her most basic instinct to protect her newborn child, what feelings can she ever trust?”

    “My tiny son and I sobbed our hearts out. . . . After everything I'd worked for, carrying and nurturing Joseph in the womb, having him at home against no small odds, keeping him by my side constantly since birth, nursing him whenever he needed closeness and nourishment-the circumcision was a horrible violation of all I felt we shared. I cried for days afterward.”

    “I have never heard such screams. . . . Will I ever know what scars this brings to your soul? . . . What is that new look I see in your eyes? I can see pain, a certain sadness, and a loss of trust.”

    “I've never even talked about this before-I thought I was the only one who worried about it.”

    “I heard him cry during the time they were circumcising him. The thing that is most disturbing to me is that I can still hear his cry. . . . It was an assault on him, and on some level it was an assault on me. . . . I will go to my grave hearing that horrible wail.”

    “The screams of my baby remain embedded in my bones and haunt my mind. . . . His cry sounded like he was being butchered. I lost my milk.”

    “I knew that this was a terrible mistake and that it was something that no one, especially newborn babies, should ever have to endure."

    CIRCUMCISION IS A WOMEN'S ISSUE

    • The maternal instincts and experiences of women uniquely qualify them for the important responsibility of caring for infants and protecting them from pain and harm.

    • Research demonstrates that women are generally more sensitive than men to the needs and feelings of infants, and newborn infants recognize, prefer, and are more responsive to their mothers.1

    • Generally, because they are not themselves circumcised, females are not subject to the personal psychological motivations of circumcised men to perpetuate the practice (e.g., "I want him to look like me").2

    • According to a recent study, circumcision can adversely affect female sexual enjoyment.3

    • Any adverse psychological consequences of circumcision on males may adversely affect male-female relationships.4

    • Because of the prevalence of circumcision in the United States, some potential adverse psychological effects of circumcision on males (known/unknown) may have indirect adverse social effects on women.5

    • Mothers sign the majority of hospital circumcision consent forms.6
    (more)
  • santa6642 2012/06/27 13:21:25
    Agree
    santa6642
    +4
    Barbaric
  • Mandy 2012/06/27 13:20:58 (edited)
    Agree
    Mandy
    +4
    I know it bucks tradition, but I think it's a valid point. Think about how the west feels about female circumcision, and ask yourself what the difference is.
  • Georgia50 Mandy 2012/06/28 00:11:19
    Georgia50
    The difference is that female circumcision does not accomplish a healthy, hygienic objective and male circumcision does.
  • Mandy Georgia50 2012/06/28 01:15:13
    Mandy
    +2
    Neither does male circumcision. According to MedicineNet.com, "In 1975, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) stated in no uncertain terms that "there is no absolute medical indication for routine circumcision of the newborn." In 1983, the AAP and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) restated this position. In 1999 and again in 2005, the AAP again restated this position of equivocation."
  • Georgia50 Mandy 2012/06/28 22:10:09
    Georgia50
    Now look at the incidence of cervical cancer among Jewish women over the centuries.

    Next.
  • Mandy Georgia50 2012/06/29 00:51:25
    Mandy
    ??? I gave you actual information and cited a source. You gave me unfounded speculation with no source. Furthermore, correlation doesn't equal causation.
  • Georgia50 Mandy 2012/07/04 02:05:55
    Georgia50
    Your information is false. My brother had to have circumcision at the age of 8.
  • Mandy Georgia50 2012/07/04 02:17:54
    Mandy
    +1
    You really don't get how rational thought works, do you? Your brother is a one-off case, and further more, you gave no reasoning as to why your brother had to be circumcized at the age of eight.
  • Georgia50 Mandy 2012/07/04 02:37:01
    Georgia50
    Don't know the technical reason, but from verbal explanations I've been given, it seems his penis was outgrowing his foreskin resulting in extreme discomfort.
  • Mandy Georgia50 2012/07/04 13:54:53
    Mandy
    +2
    So considering that many men live their lives unimpeded by not being circumsized, what I'm gathering is that in rare cases, some men may need to be circumsized later in life because of uncommon discomfort issues. But arguing that every boy should get circumsized to avoid these rare circumstances is like saying that everyone should get their appendix taken out when they are babies because some people may eventually get appendicitis.
  • Georgia50 Mandy 2012/07/04 13:57:11
    Georgia50
    My argument is that parents have a right and an obligation to choose for religious or medical reasons as they wish. I do not judge their decision.
  • Mandy Georgia50 2012/07/04 19:24:36
    Mandy
    +2
    Your argument is wrong. Unless there is a medical reason, there is no need for gender mutilation. It is not the parents' body.
  • Georgia50 Mandy 2012/07/04 21:54:18
    Georgia50
    But it's not wrong that such is my argument.
  • Mandy Georgia50 2012/07/05 00:44:41
    Mandy
    +2
    Correct. It's a bad argument, and you haven't made it well, but you certainly have the right to be wrong.
  • Georgia50 Mandy 2012/07/06 04:41:28
    Georgia50
    Actually, parental prerogative is standing law.
  • Mandy Georgia50 2012/07/06 14:18:58
    Mandy
    +2
    Just because something is currently the law doesn't make it right. The fallacy you just used is called "appeal to authority."
  • Georgia50 Mandy 2012/07/06 14:21:21
    Georgia50
    This "fallacy" as you call it has been a guiding principle throughout Western Civilization.
  • Mandy Georgia50 2012/07/06 14:34:05
    Mandy
    +2
    Again, that has nothing to do with being right or wrong. Slavery was also once a "guiding principle." In fact, throughout history, slavery has been much more common than not.
  • Georgia50 Mandy 2012/07/06 14:43:08
    Georgia50
    True, but the practice of slavery varied from time to time and place to place. A Roman unable to pay his debts could place himself in slavery to resolve the debt.
  • Mandy Georgia50 2012/07/06 15:51:13
    Mandy
    +2
    Another shining example of your inability to stay on topic and for a coherent argument. WTF?
  • Georgia50 Mandy 2012/07/06 15:54:27
    Georgia50
    There is no comparing most slave systems to American slavery. We have the dubious "honor" of imposing a slave trade that systematically broke up the human family. That made it much worse by an order of magnitude...an observation easily lost on someone arguing for an end to parental autonomy.
  • Mandy Georgia50 2012/07/06 17:31:40
    Mandy
    +2
    Are you drinking or something? It's obvious to me that you don't have any more to offer to the pertinent debate.
  • Georgia50 Mandy 2012/07/06 21:44:38 (edited)
    Georgia50
    +1
    No, but if you're serving I'll be right over. Obviously we would talk about something else.
  • Robbb Georgia50 2012/07/02 08:34:47
    Robbb
    Ok lets you seem to have the figures.
  • ««Ginge... Georgia50 2012/06/29 02:59:08
    ««Gingey, the Master Debater of Þ|-|Дэ†»»
    +1
    That's actually false. It does keep things cleaner as there are less skin folds. But really, if you want to go by that logic, why don't you just remove your armpits or ass cheeks? Lol
  • Robbb Georgia50 2012/07/02 08:34:14
    Robbb
    +1
    Male genital mutilation does not accomplish anything Let alone a healthy outcome. as a matter of fact it is probably one of the worse things imaginable to do to an infant both physically and psychologically. If you can show me how cutting the protective sheath of a penis after literally ripping it loose from the glans promotes heath then do so don’t just come out with anecdotal crap in order to protect your reputation for having or assuage your feeling of guilt for having forced it on your own children.
  • irish -liberty or death! 2012/06/27 13:09:42
    Agree
    irish -liberty or death!
    +5
    it is a seriously disgusting practice! barbaric!
  • edifyguy 2012/06/27 12:58:56
    Disagree
    edifyguy
    +1
    More meddling in the rights of parents. Apparently Germany still hates the Jews........
  • kudabux edifyguy 2012/06/27 14:05:14
    kudabux
    [...]
  • edifyguy kudabux 2012/06/27 19:37:27
    edifyguy
    +1
    I'm racist?! That's silly. It's a practice that the Jewish RELIGION has practiced for 5000 years. Banning it amounts to a usurpation of RELIGIOUS freedom, and will make Jews who practice their faith criminals. How is observing that racist?
  • alicynx edifyguy 2012/06/27 21:09:35
    alicynx
    +4
    Shall we say the same thing to the girls who are permanently scarred because of a religious edict demanding they have their clitoris removed? I see it as no different. If you want to circumsize your boy, don't be in Germany. Pretty easy to go somewhere else, considering how close all those other countries are. In the end, this is a religious practice that permanently scars a child for no reason other than "my book tells me to". It's unacceptable and it needs to stop.
  • edifyguy alicynx 2012/06/28 02:03:49
    edifyguy
    In one way, yes. In another way, no. In the "yes" sense, the practitioners of a religion should be able to practice it as their faith demands. That is a fundamental human right.



    In the "no" sense, I know enough about human anatomy and physiology to understand that there is a big difference between the procedure which was performed on me and the procedure you are describing. I seriously considered a career in medicine, and my leisure studies were geared to that end for the better part of a decade. The male foreskin is not a powerful sensory organ; it actually has relatively few nerves. The female clitoris, on the other hand, is a sensory powerhouse, representing a large portion of the touch sensitivity in a woman's genital area. Whereas removing the male foreskin has a very small effect on the male sexual response (and may actually heighten it,) removing the clitoris does make a huge difference in the woman's sexual response, in some cases rendering it completely inert. It is approximately the same as comparing removing the radiator grill from a car to removing an entire wheel from the car.



    One point that I would make is that these girls who are "permanently scarred" have nothing with which to compare their sexual experience, and so, apart from a bunch of people feeling s...



    In one way, yes. In another way, no. In the "yes" sense, the practitioners of a religion should be able to practice it as their faith demands. That is a fundamental human right.



    In the "no" sense, I know enough about human anatomy and physiology to understand that there is a big difference between the procedure which was performed on me and the procedure you are describing. I seriously considered a career in medicine, and my leisure studies were geared to that end for the better part of a decade. The male foreskin is not a powerful sensory organ; it actually has relatively few nerves. The female clitoris, on the other hand, is a sensory powerhouse, representing a large portion of the touch sensitivity in a woman's genital area. Whereas removing the male foreskin has a very small effect on the male sexual response (and may actually heighten it,) removing the clitoris does make a huge difference in the woman's sexual response, in some cases rendering it completely inert. It is approximately the same as comparing removing the radiator grill from a car to removing an entire wheel from the car.



    One point that I would make is that these girls who are "permanently scarred" have nothing with which to compare their sexual experience, and so, apart from a bunch of people feeling sorry for them and telling them how sorry they are, they would accept whatever sexual experience they had as normal. Sex to a woman is largely an emotional thing anyway, not a physical one, so I believe that to most women, it wouldn't be that big a deal. That said, I would never encourage the practice, for the reasons I listed previously.



    Whether I like the practice or not should not come into the equation. All people must be free to worship their god as they see fit, or no one is free. The only exception I can see to this would be religions which demand human sacrifice, and only that because their religion requires them to violate another human's right to life, the defense of which is one of the key elements of good government.
    (more)
  • kudabux edifyguy 2012/06/27 21:24:27
    kudabux
    +1
    "Germany still hates Jews" is a racist remark.
  • edifyguy kudabux 2012/06/28 02:04:29
    edifyguy
    If that remark is racist to you, you are obsessed with racism, and view most of life through its prism.
  • Robbb edifyguy 2012/07/02 08:41:26
    Robbb
    +1
    Pretty poor reasoning, If Germany hated the Jews and had any plans for the future then I would say that they would have the Jews circumcise along with the Muslims that way all they will have to do in the future to sort them out is have them drop their pants. Germans don’t circumcise their kids along with the rest of Europe because they are interested in the wellbeing of their children, they are also interested in the well being of Jewish children and Muslim children for that matter.
  • edifyguy Robbb 2012/07/03 01:53:36
    edifyguy
    I shake my head......how exactly has my circumcision harmed my well-being? Can you explain that, please? I really am ignorant to how horribly victimized I have been!
  • Robbb edifyguy 2012/07/03 09:03:11
    Robbb
    +1
    For one thing your penis is not capable of giving you the same satisfaction as it would if it were intact. How can a sighted man describe the sunset to a blind man. You put me at a disadvantage. Suffice for me to say that not even seeing the foreskin as a protective part of the body it is also the carrier of over 20.000 erogenous nerve endings, but you would never have felt that they were cut away from your body, for what reason? No one knows, however you are not what this is about the question is "German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault. Agree or Disagree"? I for one cant for the life of me understand why it should not be assault. Just because they may not remember it (which is not always the case) does not change anything we don’t punch babies in the mouth either because they won’t remember it.

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