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For all you people out there defending Zimmerman...

Manuel 2012/06/29 08:00:18
Trayvon Martin Arrest Now After ABC Reveals Crucial Phone Call ...
abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-mar...
Mar
20, 2012 ... A cell phone phone call from slain black teenager Trayvon
Martin to his girlfriend ... He said he lost the man," Martin's friend
said. ... Phone records that indicate the time of the girl's call with
Trayvon Martin before his death.
and....

























































www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/evidence-trayvon-mart...









May 17, 2012 ... The lead investigator called for Zimmerman's arrest in a report written ... the fight could have been avoided if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle. ... "Clearly, there was a big conflict going on." .... New Evidence in Trayvon Martin Case: Florida Doctor Says George . ..... Martin had a choice to flee or fight.

Now you conservatives.can look this up and get both full stories.....
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  • JesusIsMyGod 2012/07/02 02:42:09
    JesusIsMyGod
    +2
    People who defend Zimmerman make me sick.
  • Ryan JesusIs... 2012/07/02 03:20:36
    Ryan
    People who declare him guilty when they don't have a clue what happened make me just as sick.
  • JesusIs... Ryan 2012/07/02 03:32:03
    JesusIsMyGod
    +1
    He is a murder.
  • mblack JesusIs... 2012/07/06 12:46:43
    mblack
    He's a child killer. He draws a weapon on a kid leaving the high school junior utterly defenseless. Trayvon probably never saw the gun pointed at him, if he did i'm sure there would have been more of a struggle than what zimmerman told police.
  • Manuel mblack 2012/07/06 17:46:50
    Manuel
    plus, isn't it strange that none of Trayvon's blood wasn't found anywhere on Zimmermam?
  • mblack Manuel 2012/07/06 18:20:36
    mblack
    +1
    meaning there was distance and time between them. zimmerman strikes me as a schemer with a wife that is down for whatever. while in prison they scheme on where, what, when, and how to handle the funds. then she claims to be indigent to the judge so they have more to work with. and then if s**t hits the fan they have an extra passport. I'm for damn sure he's lying about something that happened that night!

    Trayvon: help, help!
    Zimmerman: Pow
  • Manuel mblack 2012/07/06 18:25:56
    Manuel
    it's more believable that Zimmerman was on top when he shot this kid...of course if that is true...which seems to be more evident at this point at explaining this blood issue...would knock Zimmerman's self defense out of the case easily...and can heighten this case to Murder 1 in the first degree..
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/08 07:43:19
    Ryan
    Nope Murder 1 is impossible for this case.

    If you'd read the laws for Florida you'd know this.

    And the evidence of Zimmerman being on top isn't there.

    At least not from the forensic reports that were released.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/08 15:25:15
    Manuel
    well you have your mind made up....what was that right wing saying?...Don't RUSH to judgement....hummmm
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/08 19:57:04
    Ryan
    My Mind isn't made up.

    It's open to new data and my thoughts will change with that info.

    But the Data that's available doesn't show what you claim.

    Murder 1 by Florida Law requires the killing to be either Premeditated which means planned ahead of time, and there's no way to make that argument in this case.

    Or for the death to happen while the Killer is committing one of a very specific list of Violent Felonies.

    None of which were being committed by Zimmerman.

    In addition Murder One charges have to be decided by a Grand Jury.

    So Based on the Laws of Florida, there is absolutely no valid legal way this case can be Murder 1.

    There isn't any evidence that points to Zimmerman being on top when the shot was fired.

    If you have some please provide links.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/08 20:47:29
    Manuel
    all I said was it was more believable Zimmerman was on top because of how the reports were written about the blood....but sure the reports say it's the other way around...that's what got my curiosity as well...because there is no blood spot(s) the size of a silver dollar....gravity would have caused that at such a close range shot with a 9 mil hand gun shooting a hollow tip bullet...

    and this is what Zimmerman said....7:36 p.m. EST, March 26, 2012|

    By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

    With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

    here's another...With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.

    That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

    slamming some one's head onto a sidewalk 7 times would do som...

    all I said was it was more believable Zimmerman was on top because of how the reports were written about the blood....but sure the reports say it's the other way around...that's what got my curiosity as well...because there is no blood spot(s) the size of a silver dollar....gravity would have caused that at such a close range shot with a 9 mil hand gun shooting a hollow tip bullet...

    and this is what Zimmerman said....7:36 p.m. EST, March 26, 2012|

    By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

    With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

    here's another...With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.

    That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

    slamming some one's head onto a sidewalk 7 times would do some serious hospital damage to a person...Zimmerman didn't have a cracked or fracture skull....so anyway some one is lying...

    ...no signs of sidewalk debris was on his head or clothes...just grass stains...so that kinda spells to me he could have self inflected those wounds and witnesses are shaky as well...being for them to see all that and not see the moment after the shot or even hearing the shot?... strange...
    (more)
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/08 21:00:39 (edited)
    Ryan
    9mm hollow point wound channel

    9mm entrance wound

    Once again entrance wounds don't bleed right away, because the entrance is small, and attempts to seal itself.

    It takes a little bit of time for the blood to start flowing for many reasons. If Zimmerman was out from under Martin with in a few seconds of shooting which we know is the case, there is absolutely no reason to expect any large blood spots.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/09 02:47:53
    Manuel
    okay
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/09 05:08:23
    Ryan
    Sorry I'm a bit of a nerd about forensics, and ballistics.

    Almost went into major in college.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/09 05:19:56
    Manuel
    Sorry I'm a bit of a nerd about forensics, and ballistics.

    Why are you apologizing?
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/09 06:29:39
    Ryan
    Well when I look back at it and realize I've started posting pics of gunshot wounds, I start to realize maybe I've gone a bit too far for the general public.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/09 17:11:55
    Manuel
    well to me all it looked like is you justifying Zimmerman...
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/09 23:30:19
    Ryan
    Nope just pointing out facts.

    You listed him not having blood on him as your main evidence for believing he wasn't on the bottom.

    But based on forensics, he shouldn't have much blood on him.

    Not Justifying him, just saying that part of his story checks out.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/10 00:16:31
    Manuel
    well you know what really doesn't check out...Zimmerman chasing the kid...the minute that happen that proved the kid was no threat to Zimmerman. In a court I would ask Zimmerman why did you chase and look for this kid if he was a threat to your life?
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/10 01:02:10
    Ryan
    I agree.

    Zimmerman made a number of completely stupid choices that night.

    The result of which is he is in my mind morally responsible for Martins death.

    That doesn't make him legally guilty of Murder though.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/10 01:15:52
    Manuel
    well not a planned murder...but I'd say Man slaughter...Zimmerman knew he was packing a loaded gun....it had to be in the back of his mind that he could use it if things got out of hand...but he was the one that caused it to get out of hand by chasing and hunting...I also kinda lean towards that if he didn't have his gun that night, he would have never chased Martin...
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/10 17:44:47
    Ryan
    +1
    I agree manslaughter is a closer fit for the evidence available right now.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/10 17:47:28
    Manuel
    chasing the kid is what might sink Zimmerman's case into manslaughter...
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/10 17:56:44
    Ryan
    Yes it will.

    Unless the evidence shows Trayvon's response to Zimmerman chasing him was excessive.

    Zimmerman represented a threat to Trayvon by chasing him. He could be justified to use force to stop that threat.

    But he could not legally use deadly force.

    If he did so, his escalation of the conflict now makes him the aggressor, and allows Zimmerman to legally use deadly force to save his own life.

    It's a very grey area of the law, but it's what this case has to determine.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/10 18:21:14
    Manuel
    i think going out of one's way looking for trouble..like Zimmerman did with Trayvon..will bring quite a different picture in.
    Stand you ground law...now does it stand for people giving chase to a person after being told by operators to stand down?

    That's the part I think should not give the right to a person to use deadly force...

    Zimmerman would have never had to use deadly force if he listened in the first place...

    And it will be noted that he gave chase only because he had a gun....

    That right there is some form of intimidation ..chasing some one because you know your armed...may not be saying it quite right..but intimidation is somewhere in there as well on Zimmerman's part...
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/12 05:25:38
    Ryan
    Why do you insist of bringing up Stand Your Ground Over and Over?

    Stand Your Ground

    DOES NOT APPLY IF YOU ARE THE AGGRESSOR.

    Quit bringing it up it doesn't have anything to do with this case.


    You just said because Zimmerman chased Martin when told not to, he should never under any circumstances be legally allowed to use deadly force?

    So even if Trayvon had pulled a knife and started stabbing him or started shooting at him.

    You think Zimmerman should go to jail if he'd used deadly force?


    And for it to be intimidation just because you have a gun, the other person has to know you're armed.


    And again you're confusing Morally Responsible for the Death, with legally guilty of a crime.

    The two are very different things.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/12 05:37:14
    Manuel
    I think there's a fine line in it...Zimmerman has a loaded gun....that made him think..he had the upper hand..but I don't think he planned to kill Martin...He wanted to catch and show the cops...that he can be a good cop...it was a pride and ego driven thing for Zimmerman...it made him hunt for the kid...

    But when he found him it all went wrong...so he had to come up with a believable story to tell police... And because of facts about the fight...it is possible Zimmerman gave himself those head injuries to fit his made up story....
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/12 06:07:58
    Ryan
    While I agree pride and machismo were major factors in his actions.


    It isn't possible for Zimmerman to have injured himself.

    He simply didn't have enough time.

    It's a basic Occam's Razor.

    Which is more believable?


    In the 1-2 minutes after he fired the shot to when police arrived on the scene, Zimmerman managed to break his own nose and hit the back of his head hard enough to split it open?

    Or his injuries were caused during the fight we know from forensic evidence and witness statements occurred?

    Remember during those 1-2 minutes he had multiple witnesses watching him and even had one walk up and talk to him. So it's really more like 10 seconds without a witness noticing it.

    There's just no way he could have self inflicted those injuries in the time he had.

    There's also the injury Trayvon had on his hand, or do you think Zimmerman faked that too?
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/12 06:25:52
    Manuel
    the nose punch came from the kid...but his head was never slammed on to a concrete`side` walk...police figure that out based on where the side walk was and where the fought...it is still quite possible Zimmerman self inflicted his head wounds...cops were not on the scene in 2 minutes...they had to look for them...because they first went to where Zimmerman was suppose to meet them...even his truck wasn't near the scene...The only first person that came was the lady that lived there...Zimmerman talked with her told her to call the`cops.....maybe 8 to 10 minutes .later cops came..
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/12 16:04:06
    Ryan
    +1
    Wrong the exact time from the shot fired to Officer placing Zimmerman in custody is 2 minutes 23 seconds.

    http://articles.orlandosentin...
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/13 22:25:37
    Manuel
    Dee Dee's calls don't quite match up with that...it put it more toward 5 mim...but then again it's just splitting hairs...
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/15 02:57:44
    Ryan
    Well several sites listing timelines mentioned that the cell time logs were off by a few minutes.

    However the times from the 911 calls and the police reports show how fast police were on scene.

    http://viewfromll2.com/2012/0...

    "7:16:56 pm: Forty-five seconds into the first 911 call, a gunshot is heard."

    "7:17:55 pm (estimated): By around 17:17:55 – 17:18:07pm, several 911 callers report seeing a “man with a flashlight” outside, followed by a second flash light approximately one minute, fifteen seconds later. These are almost certainly Officers Smith and Ayala, who were first on the scene."

    "he arrives on scene on the night of February 26, a few seconds before 7:18pm, he cuts through the houses on the Retreat View side of the walkway, and into the area circled in red. He sees Zimmerman walking around and Trayvon lying “face down in the grass.”"

    This site does a great job analyzing the events of that night. Though he makes some odd editorial comments in there.

    Like this:
    "Although it should have been obvious that a point blank shot to the chest with a hollow point bullet is going to be a serious wound all of the time and a fatal wound most of the time, it is believable that, with the adrenaline pumping, Zimmerman wasn’t thinking clearly."

    The issue with this is hind site thinking.

    I can ...

    Well several sites listing timelines mentioned that the cell time logs were off by a few minutes.

    However the times from the 911 calls and the police reports show how fast police were on scene.

    http://viewfromll2.com/2012/0...

    "7:16:56 pm: Forty-five seconds into the first 911 call, a gunshot is heard."

    "7:17:55 pm (estimated): By around 17:17:55 – 17:18:07pm, several 911 callers report seeing a “man with a flashlight” outside, followed by a second flash light approximately one minute, fifteen seconds later. These are almost certainly Officers Smith and Ayala, who were first on the scene."

    "he arrives on scene on the night of February 26, a few seconds before 7:18pm, he cuts through the houses on the Retreat View side of the walkway, and into the area circled in red. He sees Zimmerman walking around and Trayvon lying “face down in the grass.”"

    This site does a great job analyzing the events of that night. Though he makes some odd editorial comments in there.

    Like this:
    "Although it should have been obvious that a point blank shot to the chest with a hollow point bullet is going to be a serious wound all of the time and a fatal wound most of the time, it is believable that, with the adrenaline pumping, Zimmerman wasn’t thinking clearly."

    The issue with this is hind site thinking.

    I can just about guarantee that Zimmerman didn't have a clue where his shot hit on Martin. Or even whether or not he'd hit Martin.

    The brain just doesn't process data like that during those situations.
    (more)
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/15 03:24:45
    Manuel
    okay....but things are still questionable...
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/16 04:17:14
    Ryan
    I never said they weren't.

    Just that the timeframe doesn't allow for Zimmerman to have self inflicted his injuries.

    It's my opinion that Zimmerman wasn't lying during his statements to police.

    However, I don't believe his account of the events is the full truth either.

    It's his belief of what happened.



    The head slamming is a good example. I think it's unlikely that Zimmerman had his head slammed into the sidewalk. But that doesn't mean his head wasn't slammed into the ground and it doesn't mean Zimmerman didn't believe it was hitting the sidewalk.

    I know the ground in florida is sandy, but after falling off my grandparents roof I can you it feels plenty hard when you hit it.

    The bad luck of a piece of trash, a stick, a rock, etc, and you have wounds similar to those on Zimmerman's head.

    I think most of the events from that night can be explained in a similar way.


    Zimmerman due to adrenaline and traumatic stress, believed the damage he was taking was far worse that it actually was.

    He thought Trayvon was grabbing for his gun, and reacted to that threat.


    Whether or not that's what really was happening is a different story. As is whether or not he was legally justified to shoot.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/16 06:51:12
    Manuel
    It is still possible Zimmerman self inflicted some of his wounds...and very possible that he was lying claiming Martin was trying to get his gun out of the holster...if anything Martin was trying to get the gun to miss firer from hitting him...2 shots were fired...the first one missed... So that concludes that Zimmerman always had control of the gun...
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/16 15:43:23
    Ryan
    Only one shot was fired.

    That is proven fact according to the forensics.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/16 19:58:07
    Manuel
    I read some where back awhile ago that a witness though she heard two shots... one shot missed? and the other killed him...the info could be wrong...as I was looking for it again...it may have been removed if as you say...That is proven fact according to the forensics.
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/16 20:38:57
    Ryan
    I've seen that witness statement before, she was simply wrong about the number of shots fired.

    The Kel-Tec PF9 that Zimmerman had on him can hold a maximum of 7 rounds in the magazine, and an 8th round in the chamber. The police recovered a single empty case from the fired shot, and 7 unfired rounds in the gun.

    The witness as is extremely common heard more shots than were fired. I've never quite figured out why it happens, but it does.

    It's just another thing that shows how unreliable witnesses actually are.



    As for the gun, again I have no evidence of this, and it's just random guesswork on my part, but I think Trayvon might have tried to get the gun out of that holster.

    I think he noticed the gun during at some point during the fight and thought, "Oh damn this guy has a gun! If I don't get that away from him, he's going to kill me!"

    Meanwhile Zimmerman feels Trayvon trying to get the gun and thinks, "Oh damn this guy is trying to get my gun! If I don't stop him he's going to kill me!"

    That just seems the most likely chain of events to me.

    If Zimmerman had pulled the gun earlier, the fight would have been a wrestling match over the gun, and some of Trayvon's DNA almost certainly would be on it somewhere.
  • Manuel Ryan 2012/07/16 21:16:33
    Manuel
    it seems to me based on what your saying...if Zimmerman never had a gun in the first place then none of this would have happen.... that's something that will be looked at in this trail...
  • Ryan Manuel 2012/07/17 02:24:19
    Ryan
    Except that can't be the cause to convict him of murder.

    You're getting back into the moral verses legal responsibility thing again.

    Zimmerman didn't break any laws when he put that gun on.

    So his having a gun doesn't mean the death is murder or even illegal.

    For example would this be any different if Zimmerman had used a knife to kill Trayvon? Or an ink pen?

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