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Ever Wonder Why There are Global Warming Fanatics?

Billy Board 2011/02/06 15:30:53
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The Physicist and the Climatologist; FOLLOW THE MONEY!


The fatal flaw in the climate models seems to come from one repeated assumption. The assumption is that positive feedbacks from greenhouse effects can exceed negative feedbacks. While this situation might actually exist over a given time period (and reflect temperature increases during that time period as a result) the average over the long term must net to zero. If it doesn’t, then everything we have learned about physics over the last 1000 years is wrong, and perpetual motion is possible. If a climatologist and a physicist were to discuss the matter, the conversation might be as follows:



Climatologist; I have a system of undetermined complexity and undetermined composition, floating and spinning in space. It has a few internal but steady state and minor energy sources. An external energy source radiates 1365 watts per meter squared at it on a constant basis. What will happen?


Physicist; The system will arrive at a steady state temperature which radiates heat to space that equals the total of the energy inputs. Complexity of the system being unknown, and the body spinning in space versus the radiated energy source, there will be cyclic variations in temperature, but the long term average will not change.


Climatologist; Well what if I change the composition of the system?


Physicist; see above.


Climatologist; Perhaps you don’t understand my question. The system has an unknown quantity of CO2 in the atmosphere that absorbs energy in the same spectrum as the system is radiating. There are also quantities of carbon and oxygen that are combining to create more CO2 which absorbs more energy. Would this not raise the temperature of the system?


Physicist; there would be a temporary fluctuation in temperature caused by changes in how energy flows through the system, but for the long term average… see above.


Climatologist; But the CO2 would cause a small rise in temperature, which even if it was temporary would cause a huge rise in water vapour which would absorb even more of the energy being radiated by the system. This would have to raise the temperature of the system.


Physicist; there would be a temporary fluctuation in the temperature caused by changes in how energy flows through the system, but for the long term average… see above.


Climatologist; That can’t be true. I’ve been measuring temperature at thousands of points in the system and the average is rising.


Physicist; The temperature rise you observe can be due to one of two factors. It may be due to a cyclic variation that has not completed, or it could be due to the changes you alluded to earlier resulting in a redistribution of energy in the system that affects the measurement points more than the system as a whole. Unless the energy inputs have changed, the long term temperature average would be… see above.


Climatologist; AHA! All that burning of fossil fuel is releasing energy that was stored millions of years ago, you cannot deny that this would increase temperature.


Physicist; Is it more than 0.01% of what the energy source shining on the planet is?


Climatologist; Uhm… no.


Physicist; rounding error. For the long term temperature of the planet… see above.


Climatologist; Methane! Methane absorbs even more than CO2.


Physicist; see above.


Climatologist; Clouds! Clouds would retain more energy!


Physicist; see above.


Climatologist; Ice! If a fluctuation in temperature melted all the ice less energy would be reflected into space and would instead be absorbed into the system, raising the temperature. Ha!


Physicist; The ice you are pointing at is mostly at the poles where the inclination of the radiant energy source is so sharp that there isn’t much energy to absorb anyway. But what little there is would certainly go into the surface the ice used to cover, raising its temperature. That would reduce the temperature differential between equator and poles which would slow down convection processes that move energy from hot places to cold places. The result would be increased radiance from the planet that would exceed energy input until the planet cooled down enough to start forming ice again. As I said before, the change to the system that you propose could well result in redistribution of energy flows, and in short term temperature fluctuations, but as for the long term average temperature…. see above.


Climatologist; Blasphemer! Unbeliever! The temperature HAS to rise! I have reports! I have measurements! I have computer simulations! I have committees! United Nations committees! Grant money! Billions and billions and billions! I CAN’T be wrong, I will never explain it! Billions! and the carbon trading! Trillions in carbon trading!


Physicist; <gasp!> how much grant money?


Climatologist; Billions. Want some?


Physicist; Uhm…


Climatologist; BILLIONS


Climatologist; Hi. I used to be a physicist. When I started to understand the danger the world was in though, I decided to do the right thing and become a climatologist. Let me explain the greenhouse effect to you…

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  • TheBorg 2012/02/22 02:27:49
    This Right-Wing Propaganda!
    TheBorg
    It is Right-wing propaganda that has convinced people that humans have had no impact on climate. Even the anti-global warming nut job scientists will admit that we have an effect on climate, what is in dispute is how much and whether the final state of earth will be hot like Venus or freezing like Mars.

    I love this typical right-wing argument that since the earth is either going to freeze over like Mars or burn to a crisp like Venus, who gives a damn the effects people have on climate.

    With this exact same line of illogical reasoning that allows the right-wing extremists to justify dumping PCPs into rivers, poisoning well water, polluting the air with toxic chemicals; the earth will eventually end up in a steady state eventually anyways, hell even toxic chemicals eventually break down.

    My absolute favorite part is that the anti-environment crowd will never point to one research paper or article and explain how the science was incorrectly done. Not even here is one research paper cited yet grandiose claims are made which we are just suppose to except as facts. The lack of scientific understanding by the right is astounding ~ LOL.
  • TheBorg TheBorg 2012/02/22 02:49:14 (edited)
    TheBorg
    If you want a better understanding about the attack on science watch
    "Science Under Attack" 2011, BBC Horizon)



    The basic science is in the peer reviewed literature and you will NEVER find anti-environment people reading that literature; they prefer to believe the liars.
  • trentinafur 2012/02/20 00:39:45
    Undecided
    trentinafur
    Ever wonder why anyone would need to do more than look at satellite photos of the shrinking polar ice caps over a 20+ year period to clearly see that global warming is an undeniable reality....

    shrinking polar ice cap

    http://maps.grida.no/go/graph...
  • Freedom4 2011/02/10 13:48:50
    I Already Knew it WAS a HOAX!!
    Freedom4
    +1
    To jump right into believeing something with no sicentific proof at all that the people pushing's only remedy is crippleing the economy and letting countries like China take over is extremeley dangerous.

    One thing vital about science is debate, and the reason Democrats are trying to stop debate is because the global warming hoax can not stand up to intelligent scientific debate. One can not help but question any supposed scientist that tried to stop open debate and wonder what their motives really are. Throughout history, ruthless dictators have used religion and science to strip people of their freedoms, and the same people pushing this are the same ones trying to strip us of our freedoms and control us in every aspect of our lives even without the global warming debate. It is really convenient that these same people found a completely unproven scienticis nonsense that has the solution they have been pushing anyway.

    It is much easier for scientists to simply go with what is trendy in order to build a name for themselves and most of the studies are funder by the same government and politicians pushing for more control of our every day lives. These same people that pretend to believe in global warming like Al Gore, Rosie O'Donnell, John Travolta, Leonardo DeCaprio, etc woul...
    To jump right into believeing something with no sicentific proof at all that the people pushing's only remedy is crippleing the economy and letting countries like China take over is extremeley dangerous.

    One thing vital about science is debate, and the reason Democrats are trying to stop debate is because the global warming hoax can not stand up to intelligent scientific debate. One can not help but question any supposed scientist that tried to stop open debate and wonder what their motives really are. Throughout history, ruthless dictators have used religion and science to strip people of their freedoms, and the same people pushing this are the same ones trying to strip us of our freedoms and control us in every aspect of our lives even without the global warming debate. It is really convenient that these same people found a completely unproven scienticis nonsense that has the solution they have been pushing anyway.

    It is much easier for scientists to simply go with what is trendy in order to build a name for themselves and most of the studies are funder by the same government and politicians pushing for more control of our every day lives. These same people that pretend to believe in global warming like Al Gore, Rosie O'Donnell, John Travolta, Leonardo DeCaprio, etc would have to be complete monsters if they actually believed there was a schread of truth to it and continut to live the lifestyles that they do. That alone should raise questions. We need to stop using light bulbs as they jet set around the world on private jets and have multiple homes all far larger than the average family. many even own beach front properties, which according to them will be under water.
    (more)
  • Billy B... Freedom4 2011/02/10 15:16:26
    Billy Board
    You and I are on the same page. You just said it better than I could! Great comment and just the truth!

    comment truth applause
  • Patriot Unit 2011/02/06 22:02:37
    I Already Knew it WAS a HOAX!!
    Patriot Unit
    +1
    It is nothing other than a way for the Eco-Terrorists to gain more control over our lives. And for the elite among them to make millions. With all the scams they come up with. If these people like Al Gore can make another buck off the people he will. How else do these people maintain their lavish life style, and win the not so Nobel Peace Gift. As they days you don't win it, your given it as a reward for your craftiness.
  • Icarus Patriot... 2011/02/06 22:07:13 (edited)
    Icarus
    So you say, but the world just keeps on warming -

    world warming
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/06 22:12:11
    Billy Board
    OK, maybe next year it will return to a balance. Will you make it that long? Seems your paranoia is building and being "hysterical" is not a reasonable solution!
  • Icarus Billy B... 2011/02/06 22:16:12
    Icarus
    Climate science is a mature science going back at least 200 years - it's no mystery that the 1.2 trillion tons of global warming gases we've put into the atmosphere in the last 250 years is what is causing this warming... and since those gases aren't going away any time soon, nor will the warming.
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/06 22:21:55
    Billy Board
    What goes in, must come out ....Physics ......$ billion years old!
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/10 15:19:34
    Billy Board
    Nature balances everything except your distorted Liberal logic! nature balances distorted liberal logic distorted liberal logic
  • Icarus Billy B... 2011/02/10 15:43:32
    Icarus
    "Nature balances everything" - what does *that* mean?? :-)
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/10 15:49:29
    Billy Board
    Physics ... A significant reason why Climatology GW is a HOAX!
    physics significant reason climatology gw hoax the physics of global warming balance
  • Icarus Billy B... 2011/02/10 16:27:39
    Icarus
    Can you explain that diagram and show how it proves that "GW is a HOAX"?
  • pH~ Xisi~aet 2011/02/06 20:48:49
  • Billy B... pH~ Xis... 2011/02/06 21:54:01
    Billy Board
    +1
    You are a "dated" Liberal. I'm going to give you some really really really bad news. You better sit for this one! READY????

    The House is discussing eliminating the EPA!! Yes Sir, KILL IT! Those Guys must really really hate you Warmer Fanatics! :-))
    discussing eliminating epa sir kill guys hate warmer fanatics defund the EPA
  • pH~ Xis... Billy B... 2011/02/08 18:06:16
  • Billy B... pH~ Xis... 2011/02/08 18:32:38
    Billy Board
    Just a little "exaggeration" in your thinking!

    Tone down those emotions and look at what's happening.

    The "Warmers" hysteria is dissipating rapidly! exaggeration thinking tone emotions warmers hysteria dissipating rapidly warmer hysteria
  • Icarus 2011/02/06 20:13:55
    I'm SHOCKED!!
    Icarus
    I'm SHOCKED that anyone could be taken in by such arrant nonsense. "...the average over the long term must net to zero" indeed. The ice ages couldn't possibly have happened if that were true, as the effect of tiny changes in solar radiation alone couldn't possibly cause the formation and melting of mile-thick ice sheets over much of the Northern Hemisphere - those changes had to be amplified many times over by large positive feedbacks from albedo change, greenhouse gases, atmospheric aerosols and vegetation changes.

    Learn some science and stop posting deceitful, misleading rubbish.
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/06 22:01:25
    Billy Board
    The scope of this comment was for the last 1000 years. There was an Ice Age during that period (has been omitted in Warmer data) that lasted for several Centuries and ended as the Earth came back into balance.
    NOTE *****************************...
    P.S. Please don't clutter up this post with your British propaganda. It's just boring! and irrelevant!!
  • Icarus Billy B... 2011/02/06 22:05:04
    Icarus
    The laws of physics didn't change 1,000 years ago. If large positive feedbacks dominated climate change 10,000 years ago they will do so today as well.
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/06 22:07:42
    Billy Board
    It has been the same since the "big bang". The ancient Ice ages also resolved themselves with out Cap & Trade!
  • Icarus Billy B... 2011/02/06 22:10:07
    Icarus
    So you think we can cope just fine with a world that goes back to being as hot as it was in the days of the dinosaurs, with sea level 80 metres higher than today?
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/06 22:13:11
    Billy Board
    We need the fresh water!
  • Icarus Billy B... 2011/02/06 22:17:14
    Icarus
    I honestly don't understand that comment.
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/06 22:23:14
    Billy Board
    When the dinosaurs roamed the earth it was very tropical and lots of fresh water.!
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/10 15:26:10
    Billy Board
    The environment crises of the future will be FRESH WATER, not Heat!
    environment crises future fresh water heat usa needs freash water
  • Icarus Billy B... 2011/02/10 15:52:32
    Icarus
    I think it will be both, unfortunately.
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/10 15:23:28
    Billy Board
    I had to erase all my replies because my "insult machine" jammed over your silly Liberal comment. erase replies insult machine jammed silly liberal comment insult machine
  • Icarus Billy B... 2011/02/10 15:52:43
    Icarus
    Huh?
  • jackolantyrn356 2011/02/06 17:28:02
    I Already Knew it WAS a HOAX!!
    jackolantyrn356
    I went to elementry school in the 1950s and actually learned something. ... Essentially, Global Warming as it is presented is a complete fabrication.
    NYC cannot be flooded due to melting icebergs. If there is an EQ below the Cith (NYC) well, that might be a different story. BUT
    Tey out making a glass overflow using ICE and Cold water. fill it to the brim and let it warm and melt. don't include the sweat on the glass sides it is not any part of the orginal fill up)
    40 hours later.why is there no spiliage???
    ANSWER: there is less water in ice than in regular water or salt water. You aint gonna have NYC get wet. Global Warming has been bested in all the billions of dollars it spends by a little boy in 1957 for p5ractically nothing.
  • Icarus jackola... 2011/02/06 20:19:53 (edited)
    Icarus
    Fill the glass to the brim with water, *then* put the ice in, to represent all the ice which is currently melting from glaciers worldwide, from Greenland and from Antarctica which are all on land. What happens? Water all over your table...

    represent ice melting glaciers worldwide greenland antarctica water table

    represent ice melting glaciers worldwide greenland antarctica water table

    represent ice melting glaciers worldwide greenland antarctica water table

    ... and of course sea level is rising, and that rise is accelerating -

    greenland antarctica water table sea level rising rise accelerating

    greenland antarctica water table sea level rising rise accelerating

    greenland antarctica water table sea level rising rise accelerating

    Why do you think sea level was stable for thousands of years and then suddenly, at exactly the time when the industrial revolution started, it went into an exponentially rising curve (the red line in the last graph)? Do you think just possibly, it might have something to do with the 1.2 trillion tons of global warming gas we've pumped into the atmosphere since that time?
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/06 22:04:14
    Billy Board
    If you can't send concise information I will have to suppress your clutter! This is just same old same old, from you. Try to be more original!
  • Icarus Billy B... 2011/02/06 22:13:41
    Icarus
    How was that not concise? Unless you have the attention span of a gnat it should be easy enough and concise enough for anyone to understand.

    The fact is that the world is heating up, ice is melting all over the planet and there is now very little chance of stopping the planet moving to a climate far outside anything experienced by modern human civilisation.
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/06 22:26:09
    Billy Board
    That is "OLD" dis-proven rhetoric! We have been down this path, and you are still irrelevant!
  • Icarus Billy B... 2011/02/07 00:49:08
    Icarus
    We shall see, eh?
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/07 01:02:37
    Billy Board
    After the wedding! That's the only thing "HOT" in Britain! wedding hot britain royal wedding coming
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/10 15:30:25
    Billy Board
    NOT IN OUR LIFETIMES ......Let's count: ..... You are 10 ......70 years!
    I'm 39 ...............81years!
  • Icarus Billy B... 2011/02/10 16:01:08
    Icarus
    Arctic summer sea ice will be gone in 5 years:

    arctic summer sea ice 5 years

    Want to bet against that?
  • Billy B... Icarus 2011/02/10 15:27:38
    Billy Board
    Silly Liberal! You are living in a Liberal FOG!!
    silly liberal living liberal fog liberal fog

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