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Dutch Involuntary Euthanasia: Death Panels?

Fef 2012/02/22 02:03:01
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Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum accused Dutch doctors of committing murder on a grand scale as part of their government-run healthcare program. Santorum stated in an interview with James Dobson:Ten percent of all deaths, and half of those people are euthanized involuntarily, because they are old or sick. And so elderly people in the Netherlands don’t go into a hospital. They go to another country.the Daily Caller reports:While he overstated some of the details, Santorum's charge that many Dutch doctors practice death medicine is spot-on.

Some will defend the Dutch government healthcare program (similar to America's future known Obamacare) by attacking private health insurance programs. That argument only attempts to distract or deceive since no private insurance program requires a lethal injection or anything remotely similar to actions to speed the death of elderly and sick patients to save the government money.

Read More: http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/21/santorum-more-ri...

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  • Tea in the Harbor 2012/02/22 02:35:02
    Lies! All Lies!
    Tea in the Harbor
    +28
    I wish there'd have been a better choice of answers, I think Santorum is crazy as a bedbug and your assertion that the Dutch system, which is single payer, is anything like our health for profit system is entirely false, but I'd like more information on what the basis for Santorum's frothing is.

    I expect the Dutch will be making the information available soon, they're going to be very pissed that an American Presidential candidate is calling an ally mass murderers. I expect he just pissed off all of our European allies, since they all have very similar health care systems.

    If he were elected after such a statement, I think we'd be out of friends in the international community very quickly.

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  • DutchHe... Sissy 2012/02/28 13:21:00
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +3
    does have his upperlip
  • Marek Veni Vidi 2012/02/25 02:26:54
    Marek
    +2
    First of all I never said the whole Dutch nation are murderers just that I read that some doctors perform euthanasia and that I read about elderly people afraid to go to the hospital. Far cry from slandering the whole nation. The person below who responded to your comment is accusing me of being a liar while he has blocked me like a coward after making the accusation.
  • Sissy Marek 2012/02/28 12:40:33
    Sissy
    +3
    Then perhaps my Friend, you should do a little more "reading" and more importantly learning. Right now the Dutch are mighty ticked at the insane charges being leveled against them and how they treat their people.
  • Marek Sissy 2012/02/28 19:13:47
    Marek
    I see that you manage to make subtle insults, that is OK, we all do it every now and then. I am quite aware that Dutch people are pissed particularly when the media here and there relentlessly charachterize his remarks in such slanted way. The truth is, as I see it, that Dutch have single payer government insurance which pays their doctors to perform euthanasia which is legal. Nothing of what I just said is a lie as some people here see it. Rick Santorum said pretty much the same thing in his own words.
  • Sissy Marek 2012/02/28 23:05:19
    Sissy
    +1
    Usually when I am inspired to insult, I don't do it subtley, I tend to let it all hang out. So no, what I merely meant to say is that if you had been truly sincere about how the Dutch felt about this issue, had you looked and learned a little more, you would have found this to be simply not true and they were highly insulted in their own right. If (god forbid), there was a President Santorum, he would have a huge problem right off the bat with diplomacy with that particular country. Much like GW had throughout the world stage.
  • Marek Sissy 2012/02/29 02:23:51
    Marek
    I noticed some appendage hanging out here. No matter. I think that Dutch people have the right to be pissed. Rick Santorum has the right to freely speak on any issue. Should (god willing) there be President Santorum the Dutch like everyone else will get over the whole thing and all will be very diplomatic.
  • DutchHe... Sissy 2012/03/01 06:31:34
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +1
    And again Marek shows that he is a deplorable liar and a troll, first he supports (in)San(e)torum's lies , and now he says this: **I think that Dutch people have the right to be pissed **
    what a hypocrit
  • DutchHe... Sissy 2012/02/28 22:08:59
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +2
    Mareks answer shows he is a very cunning liar, like his idol (in)San(e)torum, always put something of truth in it as a smokescreen for the lies
    He only is right about out healthcare paying for Euthanasia, the rest (as usual) is a lie to his convenience he leaves out crucial information : that Euthanasia is ONLY on request of the -terminal- patient, it is a right !
    And he also forgets that it is none of his business..
    It is personal and private to the patient who request to receive asistance in dying in a decent way..
  • Marek Veni Vidi 2012/02/25 04:34:54
    Marek
    +2
    I said that the government puts pressure on the doctors. I suppose some cave in and some don't.
    here is an article from The Telegraph not some RWNJ or even Fox News.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/ne...

    "Prof David Jones said that if society agrees that it is in some people’s interests for them to end their own lives, it is difficult to resist the logical conclusion that others should be helped to die even if they have not made such a request.
    Dr Howard Martin: I helped patients die
    Dr Howard Martin, the retired GP who admitted hastening the deaths of patients.

    He claimed this situation already exists in the Netherlands, where voluntary euthanasia is legal but where about 500 patients are also killed a year by their doctors without requesting to die.

    Prof Jones, director of the centre for bioethics at St Mary’s University College, Twickenham, said: “My view is that it will lead from people who have asked to die, to people who cannot ask.” "
  • Veni Vidi Marek 2012/02/25 14:43:31
    Veni Vidi
    +3
    First of all, Dr. Howard Martin is British. Not Dutch.
    Second of all, Telegraph is very right newspaper and generally refered to as Torygraph. It is not much different than quoting Fox News. They are fameous for pounding on Bill Clinton during the the Whitewater days. Bill Clinton refered to the them as "peddling "right-wing inventions".
    Third of all, ALL doctors that deal with terminally ill patients kill their patients one way or another.
    Some stop the feeding and starve them to death. Many religious hospitals do that because they think it is a way of killing people without offending their god.
    Every time a doctor stops a treatment, he is shortening the life of the patient, even if it is for one day. Some doctors give higher morphine doses to help their patients shorten the suffering...
    Every time a decision is made, it affects the life span. And for sure not always to prolong it. Because the number of days somebody has is not the most important thing in the word. They quality of those days is.
  • Marek Veni Vidi 2012/02/25 15:28:47
    Marek
    +1
    First of all. If I were to ignore any news that comes from the right then the story would be so one sided. You don't seriously expect me to believe all the leftist publications?
  • Veni Vidi Marek 2012/02/25 20:48:46
    Veni Vidi
    +3
    If things you heard were news, you should not ignore them.
    However, when they are lies and distortions, you should.
    Even in the Dutch Parliament they are demanding that the Dutch government takes steps.
    http://nos.nl/artikel/344497-...
    (it is in Dutch, but still).

    Way to treat your friends that gave you money when even your alies French didn't want to (to then ambassador John Adams), who founded New York and gave you the expression Yankee. Not to mention that Dutch soldiers died in your invented war in Iraq. Way to go!
  • Marek Veni Vidi 2012/02/25 21:00:27
    Marek
    +1
    One cannot tell the difference if what one reads is the truth or a lie by ignoring it. The only way is to check it out so I will check it out Dutch language or no. it is similar to German so i will get at least some idea what it is about.
  • Veni Vidi Marek 2012/02/25 22:51:29
    Veni Vidi
    +3
    I'll tell you how to tell if the Fox news is lying.
    See if their mouth is open and if there is a sound coming out.
    In that case, they are.
    About the newspapers abroad... I understand your point.
    But if the text sounds alarming and there is only one source to it or it comes from a certain person that might profit if that were true... it is a lie.
  • Marek Veni Vidi 2012/02/25 23:06:56
    Marek
    The same criteria I apply to all leftist media and networks. The only source that is somewhat reliable is Fox News. if I doubt something then I look up foreign sources. Always judge the news by prior experience. The last advice you give has a lot of merit and is a good test but by no means definite proof that someone is lying.
  • Veni Vidi Marek 2012/02/26 10:14:38
    Veni Vidi
    +3
    I can not understand why would you look up your information at the outlet that famously went to court to protect its right to lie - and won. They are lying and have no plans at stopping or being embarrassed about it. They went to great lengths to make sure they can continue lying to .... well... their victims.

    There is a famous study that people that watch Fox are less informed than people that don't watch the news at all. Did you know that?
    Fox viewers are not just uninformed, they are misinformed. What does that mean? To me, that would mean to stay away from the propaganda outlet. But if you prefer to be their tool, go ahead and keep watching them.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/k...
  • Marek Veni Vidi 2012/02/26 15:23:36
    Marek
    +1
    I can say the same about people who watch CNN, NBC, MSNBC and the like. I watch those on occasion and every time I get this feeling that I am being lied to. I don't care to watch and listen Chris Mathews telling his audience about this tingle up his leg.
  • Veni Vidi Marek 2012/02/26 16:06:32
    Veni Vidi
    +3
    I am not saying that it is my opinion that the Fox news is lying.

    I am saying that
    1) they went to court to protect their right to lie
    2) a study found out that people watching the fox news are uninformed and misinformed.

    Nr. two comes out of nr. 1. Why would anybody want to protect the right to lie? News agencies pride themselves of being neutral, such as BBC. A commentary can be pushed into one direction or another, but the news shouldn't.

    That is not my opinion, those are the facts. And if you don't want to face it, they have gotten already to you.
  • Veni Vidi Marek 2012/03/01 23:38:49
    Veni Vidi
    And I have two more points:

    1) the reason why you feel like you are being lied to is because things you hear do not match your previous frame of mind which was framed by the Fox news. It doesn't mean it is lie what you hear, only that it doesn't fit your experience.
    Now, one of them is not telling the truth. I would bet those that went to court to protect their right to lie to you.
    And if I were you, I would be mad. Because they don't lie to me. They lie to you Marek. You.

    2) You don't have to listen about the tingle. But at least Chris Mathews and any fifth grader would probably know to explain why there is a tide.

    http://knowyourmeme.com/memes...
  • Marek Veni Vidi 2012/03/04 02:45:29
    Marek
    I had my frame of mind made up long before I even knew there was Fox News.
    You really mean to tell me that Fox News went to court and asked the judge to permit them to lie? You happen to have a link that proves that?
  • Veni Vidi Marek 2012/03/04 14:51:21
    Veni Vidi
    That is a known fact to everybody except the Fox news viewers. The Fault News are hiding it as much as they can - understandably - because they don't want to lose the viewers that would really want to be informed.

    And you might have had your mind set before there was FN. But misinformed means also that you don't have access to all the facts and figures, things that FN never mentions. Like this for example.
    Would you go to a doctor that went to a court to protect his right to give wrong medication to a patient?
    Would you have your house built by an architect that went to a court to protect his right to use bad quality cement?

    How many links do you want?

    http://www.librarygrape.com/2...

    http://ceasespin.org/ceasespi...

    http://www.projectcensored.or...
  • Marek Veni Vidi 2012/03/05 17:07:22
    Marek
    Give some respectable links not a leftist propaganda outlets.
  • Veni Vidi Marek 2012/03/05 17:48:55
    Veni Vidi
    You should not think that just because something doesn't fit within your worldview it is propaganda.

    Here is Wikipedia article about it. You can get informed about it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    Would you trust the law suit?
    http://www.2dca.org/opinions/...

    So, the Fox Broadcasting Company station WTVT in Tampa, Florida has successfully argued that the FCC policy against falsification was not a "law, rule, or regulation", therefore not protecting the whistle-blower who has brought the charges.
    This in effect allows them to say whatever they want to - there is no law, rule or regulation that prohibits it.
    No wonder you can't find this anywhere on the right wing outlets.
    Propaganda is not just what they tell you, it is also what they don't tell you.
  • Marek Veni Vidi 2012/03/05 17:17:41
    Marek
    I watched some videos and read this ceasespin.org propaganda. Show me where and when Fox News lawyers said in court they have the right to lie. The leftist marxist media lies as a matter of expediency in support of their agenda
  • Marek Veni Vidi 2012/02/26 15:40:11
    Marek
    +1
    I apologize but I need to explain.
    This sockbuster individual blocked me then lied to his friends about it. He even went so far as asking his friends to report as he put it "this insect" to SodaHead. I posted proof where he says he is blocking me and reported his TOS violation to SodaHead and blocked him back. I have no intention to unblock him so he can heap some more abuse on me. I don't play "hit and run" games as he does. If he wanted to dispute my comments he should not have blocked me in the first place. For a person who does not tolerate insults he certainly heaps insults on people he hates. This is a two way street. Now he wants to talk to me? I let him beg others to provide him with the venue for more ad hominem attacks.
    How do I know if he did not take this screen shot before blocking me? Thank You for your patience with me.
  • DutchHe... Veni Vidi 2012/02/26 05:50:45
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +5
    Vene Vidi I apologise for (ab)using rhe reply option on your post but I have to say this
    Marek you dispicable liar I blocked you for 1 day only for for insulting and lying in one of my posts after that you were unblocked again.
    marek
    Now you lie here that you are blocked by me from answering here while it is the otherway arround, if you have one shred of backbone , you will unblock me so I can answer your shyte
  • DutchHe... Veni Vidi 2012/02/26 05:29:32 (edited)
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +1
    this is a translation :

    'Questions in the hous of commons about Santorum'

    Dutch labor party-member of parliament Frans Timmermans has aked questions in the house of commons about the remarks of the Republican presidents candidate Rick Santorum, who said during a meeting that in the Netherlands many people are being involuntary euthanised
    Timmermans has called minister Rosenthal (Foreign Affairs) to ask why the Dutch embassy has not called Santorum to order.
    And why the embassy stated befor, not wanting to meddle with the American elections fight.

    "According to the New York Times the dutch ambassador gave 'no comment' on the scandalous accusations of Santorum at the address of our country. How is it possible?", writes Timmermans on Facebook. "This really cannot be accepted."

    'Elderly people to foreign country'

    Santorum, a conservative roman Catholic who does well in the polls, said that in the Netherlands 10 percent of the deaths are through euthanasia . "The half of that undergoes the euthanasia involuntarily." According to Santorum, elderly people flee abroad not to be murdered
    In fact less than 2 percent of the deaths are euthanasia, on request of the patient.,.

    'Hordes of clogs bearers'

    The Dutch rage lead to multiple small messages in the American press, but i...

    this is a translation :

    'Questions in the hous of commons about Santorum'

    Dutch labor party-member of parliament Frans Timmermans has aked questions in the house of commons about the remarks of the Republican presidents candidate Rick Santorum, who said during a meeting that in the Netherlands many people are being involuntary euthanised
    Timmermans has called minister Rosenthal (Foreign Affairs) to ask why the Dutch embassy has not called Santorum to order.
    And why the embassy stated befor, not wanting to meddle with the American elections fight.

    "According to the New York Times the dutch ambassador gave 'no comment' on the scandalous accusations of Santorum at the address of our country. How is it possible?", writes Timmermans on Facebook. "This really cannot be accepted."

    'Elderly people to foreign country'

    Santorum, a conservative roman Catholic who does well in the polls, said that in the Netherlands 10 percent of the deaths are through euthanasia . "The half of that undergoes the euthanasia involuntarily." According to Santorum, elderly people flee abroad not to be murdered
    In fact less than 2 percent of the deaths are euthanasia, on request of the patient.,.

    'Hordes of clogs bearers'

    The Dutch rage lead to multiple small messages in the American press, but it is mainy sneering comments about the outrage in our small country.

    Some columnist writes: "Finally a politician takes on our largest enemy : the Dutchmen, with propagandists as Rembrandt, Vermeer and Van Gogh they have infiltrated our schools and museums infiltrated, but our leaders are deaf for the clog bearing hordes."
    (more)
  • Veni Vidi DutchHe... 2012/02/26 10:17:22
    Veni Vidi
    +1
    I speak Dutch, so you don't have to translate it for me, but thank you anyway.

    As I said, members of the Dutch Parliament demanded that the government intervenes and protests through their ambassador in Washington.

    But that would be ironical that Obama's ambassador is called in order for something his direct oponents is saying, wouldn't it? Which is the reason why they didn't do that. And because you can't argue with the crazy. And because they didn't want to give Santorum more publicity.
  • DutchHe... Veni Vidi 2012/02/26 16:30:34 (edited)
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +3
    Sorry I did not know that, however I translated it for the Americans so that they can read it aswell
  • Mel Mar... DutchHe... 2012/02/26 14:27:57
    Mel Martens
    +1
    I need a link to that last quote. It disgusts me that my second homeland is being used in a smear campaign of childish political games like this. I have so many tabs open on my browser on information sites and comments of all sorts and the rage just is not going away, even though I live in Australia and am Australian born.

    Nothing will take away the rage at them basically calling the doctors and nurses that took care of my father in his last weeks cold blooded murderers and NOTHING will change my mind that we did the right thing in listening to him and allowing him to CHOOSE HIS OWN WAY OF DYING!

    /rant
  • DutchHe... Mel Mar... 2012/02/26 16:33:34
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +1
    to what do you need a link ?
    the news article ?
    http://nos.nl/artikel/344497-...
    any other link ? just ask
  • Mel Mar... DutchHe... 2012/02/27 03:22:27
    Mel Martens
    +1
    The clog wearing hordes one. Just wondering if there was an English version of it so I can show it to others. I can read it fine but others cannot <_<
  • DutchHe... Mel Mar... 2012/02/27 05:50:54 (edited)
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +1
    the wooden shoes , we call Klompen, it is just another prejuidice about the dutch
    klompen
    this, tulips and windmils ...
    A thing we are damn proud of by the way
  • Marie-J... DutchHe... 2012/03/02 11:34:27
    Marie-Jacqueline
    I read that remark of columnist also but I think he didn't ment it as as to considered serious.
    To me he ment it more as a humouristic end of his article.

    I had to read it a few times and than I understood that he wasn't serious with that remark
  • Sissy Marek 2012/02/25 13:48:29 (edited)
    Sissy
    +2
    I don't where you "heard" this nonsense, probably on Fox Comedy Network or Hate Radio, but if you venture out a little farther, you will find like 100% of other spewed vitriol, that it is totally and completely false. That is IF you want to really look for the truth which most bearing Right have no interest in.
  • Marek Sissy 2012/02/25 15:10:33
    Marek
    +1
    I take it that you are totally in support of obama care and chose to ignore anything negative about it and any evidence or warnings that it is not as great as you think it is.
    That is your right. Nobody is forcing you to believe any warnings but if this thing is implemented and the warnings were accurate than we all are going to be very unhappy.

    Just so you know. I have downloaded the obama care bill and it has downloaded some 960 pages while the version that was voted on and passed contained nearly three thousand pages. So what is in the missing two thousand pages that I could not download? It is said that the devil is in the details and I suspect that it is the details that are being kept secret from public. Unless of course you have the full version with the details as they are going to be implemented than by all means forward it to me so I can take a look at it. Otherwise I must rely on the republicans from Congress and senate to tell me what it is in it that they don't like and why it is such a bad bill and must be repealed.
  • Sissy Marek 2012/02/25 15:18:13
    Sissy
    +2
    I am 100% in favor of Health Care and only wish it had not been watered down as I liked and supported the original Plan. If you bearing Right want to believe the distortions and outright lies attributed to it then so be it. We are the last democratized country in the world that does not offer decent, affordable health care to its citizens. England adopted it when they were on their knees and devastated by the War and its been perking on our plate here for over 65 years. Its long, long overdue.
  • Marek Sissy 2012/02/25 15:50:08
    Marek
    I am not totally against some form of national health care but I don't trust the current crop of democrats to do it right. I am still concerned what is in the missing part of the health care bill that I was unable to download.
  • Veni Vidi Sissy 2012/02/26 20:27:09
    Veni Vidi
    +2
    Excellent point about England!
  • Sissy Veni Vidi 2012/02/26 20:41:09

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