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Dutch Involuntary Euthanasia: Death Panels?

Fef 2012/02/22 02:03:01
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Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum accused Dutch doctors of committing murder on a grand scale as part of their government-run healthcare program. Santorum stated in an interview with James Dobson:Ten percent of all deaths, and half of those people are euthanized involuntarily, because they are old or sick. And so elderly people in the Netherlands don’t go into a hospital. They go to another country.the Daily Caller reports:While he overstated some of the details, Santorum's charge that many Dutch doctors practice death medicine is spot-on.

Some will defend the Dutch government healthcare program (similar to America's future known Obamacare) by attacking private health insurance programs. That argument only attempts to distract or deceive since no private insurance program requires a lethal injection or anything remotely similar to actions to speed the death of elderly and sick patients to save the government money.

Read More: http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/21/santorum-more-ri...

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  • Tea in the Harbor 2012/02/22 02:35:02
    Lies! All Lies!
    Tea in the Harbor
    +28
    I wish there'd have been a better choice of answers, I think Santorum is crazy as a bedbug and your assertion that the Dutch system, which is single payer, is anything like our health for profit system is entirely false, but I'd like more information on what the basis for Santorum's frothing is.

    I expect the Dutch will be making the information available soon, they're going to be very pissed that an American Presidential candidate is calling an ally mass murderers. I expect he just pissed off all of our European allies, since they all have very similar health care systems.

    If he were elected after such a statement, I think we'd be out of friends in the international community very quickly.

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  • Ghost 2012/03/03 17:19:34
    Government Healthcare at its Finest
    Ghost
    +1
    My wife's Dutch and she never wants to return there. Now I can see why.
  • DutchHe... Ghost 2012/03/03 18:21:24
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    If you both believe this nonsense , PLEASE STAY WHERE YOU ARE
  • Ghost DutchHe... 2012/03/15 00:54:15
    Ghost
    +1
    Then what about hospitals and hospices that supply heroin to dying patients instead of meds? Try and explain that away if you're who you say you are. What about my wife's grandmother who fell and broke her hip while visiting? She had screws inserted and when she returned to Holland, the doctors asked when they could take them out. I've visited Holland and I've seen it with my own two eyes. Sounds like another country hooked on socialized medicine to me! If I were you, I would change my home location to another country.
  • DutchHe... Ghost 2012/03/15 04:10:27
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    Man you are DUMB, heroin is the best painkiller known to man, befor it became an illegal drug it was used under the name Laudanum..
    And you said it right , DYING patients and they get it get it when they are in pain to ease their suffering and nothing else works anympore to ease that pain , and it IS medicinal and you make it sound like they go out in the street to get it for these patients..

    And this about your grandmother makes absolutely no sense at all, and about your claim seeing it it with your own eyes , there are two possibillities
    (1) You are a liar, and you make this all up to justify your idiot views on healthcare
    (2) you are totaly insane
    I believe you are both ...
  • Allan DutchHe... 2012/06/20 20:18:08
    Allan
    +3
    I am afraind you are wrong, heroin only covers pain and has a long list of side effects on the other hand MSM is 3 times more effective against pain than moriphine with no side effects at all except continued health.

    As for the death panels how else can government reduce costs except by removing the individual from the system, yes they must exist there is no other way under government health care.
  • DutchHe... Allan 2012/06/21 06:09:20
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    about the first part, you might be right. but for the second part , you are an idiot and I am sick and tired of people who take trash journalism like shown on foxcrapnews as the gospel
    I doubt if you can even point my country out on a blind map...
  • Allan DutchHe... 2012/06/27 19:18:09
    Allan
    You see once again the only thing you have to offer is cuss words which is always a sign of someone with an unsupported weak argument. As for pointing out this country on a map or for most any country I happen to be a student of not only geography but history as well and I have no need to resort to cuss words as I know the actual facts involved with a very extensive education in health and healing.

    So the next time you try insulting those who actually know more than you think better of it as it only make you look the fool.
  • DutchHe... Allan 2012/06/27 20:14:45
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    wow a student , maybe you should study FACTS instead all trash sensationalism you obviously believe ..
  • Dave 2012/03/01 06:08:29
    Lies! All Lies!
    Dave
    Like all republicons they spin lies, and because they aren't held accountable they say whatever they want. Makes me sick.
  • John Locke 2012/02/28 14:04:38
    Lies! All Lies!
    John Locke
    +1
    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes....
    Santorum's claim has been proven false repeatedly. Do republicans EVER stop lying? No, unfortunately it's the best way to fire up the complete morons who vote for them.
  • Katherine 2012/02/27 17:24:58
    Government Death Panels
    Katherine
    +2
    I'm more ashamed for health care (death care) that kills the elderly and disabled when the government can't "afford" to pay for them anymore -- technically, these elderly having a lifetime of paying into the corrupt, redistributive system -- than a capitalist system requiring people to pay for the medical care they get, since these doctors have gone through years of medical school and have lives in their hands. JMO. As much as people from out of the US like to criticize our system, they came here when theirs failed them.
  • DutchHe... Katherine 2012/02/27 19:38:04
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +3
    First : (in)San(e)torum is lying through his teeth (as always)
    With his lying he allmost created a diplomatic incident with my country, the Netherlands which is an Ally and Trade Partner,
    Second : When you live in the Netherlands, you have the choice , it is always YOUR choice,
    Elderly and disabled can request Euthanasia , but it will NEVER be forced up on them..
    If you don't want Euthanasia , don't ask for it , it is that simple
  • Katherine DutchHe... 2012/02/28 02:13:45
    Katherine
    +1
    What, do watch every hour to see if someone has come back to make a comment so you can correct them and tell them just how fabulous your socialized medicine is.

    I read reports almost daily about the death care in various European countries, I find it absolutely appalling, and I'm in no way interested in the excuses you have for subjecting people to this inhumane and criminally mediocre system.


    Good day.
  • DutchHe... Katherine 2012/02/28 04:47:55 (edited)
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +4
    Yes I do , and there are lots of dutch people here doing the same in this poll
    We need to expose the lies of your conservative politicians about my country and Europe in general
    Politicians like Rick Santorum , who have absolutely no shame to tell the insane lies about my country to get in the center of attention
    Fact is our socialized healthcare IS fabulous, its EXCELLENT SERVICE lets nobody die.
    This involuntary eutanasia is an insane lie by an insane man who risks a diplomatic incident with an allied country when he is still running to ne canditate for the presicency..
    Santorum is already now lying trhough his teeth with his totaly twisted stories , I wonder what he will do if he "god" forbid becomes president ???

    The reports you read are right out lies and deception put there by the health insurance companies to make the people afraid to accept socialized medicine for one reason only IT WILL COST THEM THE MONOPOLY ,It will cost them profit , money is more important than the affordability of healthcare to people..

    The more I read your answer the more angry I get of your answer, tit is insulting it shows he total ignorance of fact checking befor you open your big mouth
    That you are so convinced of your own righteousnesswithout this fact checking is just sickening .
    You need to ...
    Yes I do , and there are lots of dutch people here doing the same in this poll
    We need to expose the lies of your conservative politicians about my country and Europe in general
    Politicians like Rick Santorum , who have absolutely no shame to tell the insane lies about my country to get in the center of attention
    Fact is our socialized healthcare IS fabulous, its EXCELLENT SERVICE lets nobody die.
    This involuntary eutanasia is an insane lie by an insane man who risks a diplomatic incident with an allied country when he is still running to ne canditate for the presicency..
    Santorum is already now lying trhough his teeth with his totaly twisted stories , I wonder what he will do if he "god" forbid becomes president ???

    The reports you read are right out lies and deception put there by the health insurance companies to make the people afraid to accept socialized medicine for one reason only IT WILL COST THEM THE MONOPOLY ,It will cost them profit , money is more important than the affordability of healthcare to people..

    The more I read your answer the more angry I get of your answer, tit is insulting it shows he total ignorance of fact checking befor you open your big mouth
    That you are so convinced of your own righteousnesswithout this fact checking is just sickening .
    You need to get a ferm kick under your butt to shake you back in the reality that you are lied to about almost anything where money is involved..
    Open your damn eyes for what really is going on.
    (more)
  • The Thi... DutchHe... 2012/02/28 04:54:59
    The Thinking Woman
    +2
    Since Katherine has me blocked, when I have never spoken to her before, ask her to post sources of such deaths. She is lying, plain and simple.
  • DutchHe... The Thi... 2012/02/28 05:33:10
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +3
    she shows that she knows NOTHING about reality
  • The Thi... DutchHe... 2012/02/28 05:35:48
    The Thinking Woman
    +2
    She certainly knows nothing about your homeland or America. She just makes chit up.
  • DutchHe... The Thi... 2012/02/28 05:53:30
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +3
    I think exactly the same
  • Ghost DutchHe... 2012/03/15 00:56:57
    Ghost
    +1
    Why don't you two find a hotel? Wait....never mind, we don't want anymore dummies bred today. There's enough of them already to go around.
  • DutchHe... Ghost 2012/03/15 04:10:16
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    Exacty there are already too many dummies like YOU running around..
    People like YOU are what giving the US the bad name of being a poorly educated ignorant stupid TV watching nation..
    And I have seen enoough of your insulting lies ..
    Bye
    Means "don't bother to answer because I block idiots like you"
  • ruthannhausman 2012/02/27 02:22:39
    Government Healthcare at its Finest
    ruthannhausman
    +1
    You know, I'm getting sick and tired of reading all about the nasty insurance companies and the cost of medical care, etc., and how these companies are ripping everybody off and whatnot.

    First of all, you get an insurance company and it puts up the money to pay medical expenses and collects its premiums and so forth. Lots of folks participate in these insurance companies, lots of retirees get pensions from their stock portfolios which have insurance companies in them. A whole list of things come from insurance companies. Not all of insurance companies' business is spent ripping off the American public. Hey, they take the risks, they deserve some reward when the bet pays off. So let's stop criticizing insurance companies on the whole and delve into what can be done to change the situation of expensive medical treatments and people dying because of lack of money!

    I don't know the answers to all of the questions. Hell, I don't even know where to begin. I am not an expert in the medical field. I am an expert, however, in the field of why some folks don't have a life because they've spent every last dime they owned on medical costs. (Hello, that's me, guys.) But, hey, I'm not griping, honest. I'm glad to be here and glad to be doing pretty well, all things considered...







    You know, I'm getting sick and tired of reading all about the nasty insurance companies and the cost of medical care, etc., and how these companies are ripping everybody off and whatnot.

    First of all, you get an insurance company and it puts up the money to pay medical expenses and collects its premiums and so forth. Lots of folks participate in these insurance companies, lots of retirees get pensions from their stock portfolios which have insurance companies in them. A whole list of things come from insurance companies. Not all of insurance companies' business is spent ripping off the American public. Hey, they take the risks, they deserve some reward when the bet pays off. So let's stop criticizing insurance companies on the whole and delve into what can be done to change the situation of expensive medical treatments and people dying because of lack of money!

    I don't know the answers to all of the questions. Hell, I don't even know where to begin. I am not an expert in the medical field. I am an expert, however, in the field of why some folks don't have a life because they've spent every last dime they owned on medical costs. (Hello, that's me, guys.) But, hey, I'm not griping, honest. I'm glad to be here and glad to be doing pretty well, all things considered.

    But let's get back to the basic subject of what can we do to eliminate the excessive costs in the medical arena. For one, I would like to see some type of "independent" experts employed to track down all of the fraud and stealing that's going on and let's get RESTITUTION. I don't want to send these idiots to prison, where I get to pay to have them eat three squares and never worry about a roof over their heads, I want them to pay back the system(s) they have stolen from. Hey, novel idea. So many defendants are found guilty and then they get sent to prison and there is no restitution. That's not a win-win situation in my book.

    But there should be some type of forum -- website maybe? -- people can go to input suggestions. Hey, just a little snippet here from this guy, another little one from there from that guy and eventually you've got a lot of subject matter at least covered. Then let's kick the ideas around. And responses can come from, "Hey, good idea but that second step isn't possible legally, so you will have to fix that first," or you get the idea.

    Unlike Barack Obama, who thought he could sit down and write an entire medical care program for the entire country practically by himself, I believe there are a million or more great ideas out there in America which contain fragments of what could eventually become one good, solid medical plan for America. With input from "the people" for a change. "The people" who have the best interests of "the people," not solely themselves, at heart. Stop the blame game and let's get into the resolution game. Hey, what a welcome "change" that would be. You think?

    I believe medical decisions should be up to the patients and their doctors, not government workers and/or departments. And money should not have to be a part of that decision. Euthanizing people? I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound humane at all. I don't like euthanizing animals, so I sure as hell don't want people to get euthanized! Nasty business.
    (more)
  • DutchHe... ruthann... 2012/02/27 05:38:57 (edited)
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    +3
    I critisize american health insurance because they are a bunch of crooks , who kick people out when they are becoming too expensive , or they will look for something you forgot to mention on the intake form so they can kick you out they are not taking ANY risk.. only making billion dollar profits
    (a personal friend of mine in the US is dying of normal treatable form of cancer because of this)
    Man I am sooooo glad that we have our EXELLENT government healtcare that pays for everything and does NOT refuse payment to protect profit , because it is not based on making profit ..

    I wonder though, what has your post to do with the lies of (p)Rick (in)San(e)torum, the subject of this topic ?
  • ruthann... DutchHe... 2012/03/05 22:50:55
    ruthannhausman
    I thought the subject was of Dutch involuntary euthanasia death panels. Did I miss something here? (I have to admit, with red face, that sometimes I don't bother to read the back-up postings because the "subject" line has put an idea into my head that I want to run with. Ooops.) Anyway, I got to say what I wanted to say. "Nuff said. Hah!
  • DutchHe... ruthann... 2012/03/06 06:26:56
  • ruthann... DutchHe... 2012/03/06 16:23:38
    ruthannhausman
    Now, see, you have made a comment that causes me to want to check up on this info before I comment because, you see, I don't know anything about the subject so I can't give you a rah, rah, rah or a phooey-on-youie. Know what I mean? But I don't have the time right now to do this so I guess I'll just have to tell you I can't comment on the accuracy or inaccuracy of that statement. It just seems funny to me that a national candidate, with all the TV cameras on him, all the pundits at his back, all the research nuts (not meant as an insult there) and whatnot who see and hear what he has to say every day, would get up in front of all those folks and say something that has no basis or merit. So that's why you have piqued my interest in checking up on your assertion. Drats to you, SockBuster, there just isn't enough time in the day for this stuff. Oh, well, I'll get to it one day. Meanwhile, I'll just say Obamacare sucks just as it is, period, and Dutch death panels or no Dutch death panels, I don't like what I've seen thus far. Perhaps we can take the basic good stuff, cull out the rotten stuff and get it rewritten and with the assistance and knowledge of we, the people, this time? Ahh, what a novel thought.

    You kee pa handle on your
  • DutchHe... ruthann... 2012/03/06 17:40:20
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    suit your self stay ignorant and please stay in your dumb group in your country...
  • ruthann... DutchHe... 2012/03/08 16:12:05
    ruthannhausman
    I never said I was ignorant, SockBuster, so put a clamp on that one right now. I said I didn't know about Dutch death panels. Totally different than being ignorant. Do you know everything there is to know about every subject in the world? I doubt it. So let's not cast stones where none need be cast okay?

    I will go on record, however, as saying that I totally disapprove of the Obamacare policy as I have seen it coming to fruition and basically reading slowly but surely and finding out some previously hidden facts within it. I never have pretended or asserted that I know all the answers to these tough questions, but I know when I see lies being bandied about, and Obamacare is loaded with misperceptions and misconceptions, all of which negatively impact the American people, but particularly the lower-income groups.

    And, P.S., Dutch medical practices don't affect me in any way, shape or form; hence, my reluctance to take up valuable time I need to work and earn $$$ to find out about them just to answer a question on SodaHead. Make sense to you? Hmmmm, does that move me to the head of the line of my dumb group now?
  • DutchHe... ruthann... 2012/03/08 18:59:18 (edited)
  • ruthann... DutchHe... 2012/03/09 12:59:57
    ruthannhausman
    Let me put it another way. I don't give a rat's fanny whether or not there are such things as Dutch death panels. You got that point yet? I thought I made that very clear in the very beginning. I commented merely on the basic, underlying meaning of the question posed and not on the assertion that there were, indeed, death panels. I admitted to not knowing and could therefore not comment.

    I am so happy you are happy with the Netherlands. And I have talked with folks from other countries, including Canada, and yes, many of them are happy with their healthcare situations -- until something serious comes into play. Then they come to the United States to get fixed. Those that can afford it, that is.

    As for your "death panels"? Perhaps I might just take some time and look into it and we can get back into this once again. I am in the middle of a job (which produces income for me) and can't do it right away, but I plan on it within the next 30 days sometime. I am wondering if perhaps there are differing viewpoints on the definition of "death panels" or something to that effect because there are too many intelligent individuals standing up and talking about the subject who know full well that if they're full of BS that they'll get shot down. And I cannot imagine anybody delib...

    Let me put it another way. I don't give a rat's fanny whether or not there are such things as Dutch death panels. You got that point yet? I thought I made that very clear in the very beginning. I commented merely on the basic, underlying meaning of the question posed and not on the assertion that there were, indeed, death panels. I admitted to not knowing and could therefore not comment.

    I am so happy you are happy with the Netherlands. And I have talked with folks from other countries, including Canada, and yes, many of them are happy with their healthcare situations -- until something serious comes into play. Then they come to the United States to get fixed. Those that can afford it, that is.

    As for your "death panels"? Perhaps I might just take some time and look into it and we can get back into this once again. I am in the middle of a job (which produces income for me) and can't do it right away, but I plan on it within the next 30 days sometime. I am wondering if perhaps there are differing viewpoints on the definition of "death panels" or something to that effect because there are too many intelligent individuals standing up and talking about the subject who know full well that if they're full of BS that they'll get shot down. And I cannot imagine anybody deliberating putting themselves on the firing line on such a touchy subject. That is what has me piqued on this topic.

    Yes, I consider the word "ignorant" to be an insult because that is how the word has been used in the past several years. Perhaps you could try "uninformed." That is a much better term. I do not consider myself to be a rocket scientist but, hey, I have lived for 65 years and have experienced and witnessed things you will never in a million years be able to duplicate, believe me, and I always strive to be fair and impartial when I deal with any subject. But sometimes I run into cement walls that are hard to penetrate. In any event, I will bone up on this subject and perhaps we can get back into a discussion at a later date. An "informed" discussion. How about that?
    (more)
  • DutchHe... ruthann... 2012/03/09 18:47:53
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    Ofcourse you don't give a rat's ass, you are a conservative , it is no surprise ..
    And of course you will look in to it when you have the time , but I am sure you will not any person in the countries in question because they might tell you the things you do not want to hear .. you are a conservative , that's also no surprise ...
    If you have time to write me this text, in the same time you could have asked the other people here , they are here NOW not in 30 days ..
    And I don't mean this compulsive liar of M'rek here under , he will always kiss up to you or others to gather followers
  • ruthann... DutchHe... 2012/03/10 16:30:25
    ruthannhausman
    I give up. You are an absolute jerk. Where do you get off telling me what time I have to do what and what I do or do not wish to hear. You have absolutely no knowledge or inkling what my life is all about and you have formed yet another knee-jerk reaction to my basic categorization of conservative.

    I find it repulsive to even attempt to defend anything I've said. You are adept at twisting words to suit yourself and you, sir, don't want to hear the truth about anything yourself. You know it all, huh? Bull.

    Now go away. I joined SodaHead because I wanted to be able to talk to all kinds of people about all kinds of subjects. There are so many things going on in this world that it is impossible -- get that point? -- impossible to handle all of them with full knowledge and research. I am in the middle of more than one project right now. There are only so many hours in a day and I've used way too many of them up on your silliness. Yes, I said I didn't give a rat's fanny (not ass, I didn't say ass, you did) about Dutch death panels. Gee, I wonder why? Hmmm? Because I'm not Dutch, you goof. Get it? But the subject did interest me and having heard about it I thought it would be nice to look stuff up and find out what the truth is underneath all the rhetoric. But it is ...





    I give up. You are an absolute jerk. Where do you get off telling me what time I have to do what and what I do or do not wish to hear. You have absolutely no knowledge or inkling what my life is all about and you have formed yet another knee-jerk reaction to my basic categorization of conservative.

    I find it repulsive to even attempt to defend anything I've said. You are adept at twisting words to suit yourself and you, sir, don't want to hear the truth about anything yourself. You know it all, huh? Bull.

    Now go away. I joined SodaHead because I wanted to be able to talk to all kinds of people about all kinds of subjects. There are so many things going on in this world that it is impossible -- get that point? -- impossible to handle all of them with full knowledge and research. I am in the middle of more than one project right now. There are only so many hours in a day and I've used way too many of them up on your silliness. Yes, I said I didn't give a rat's fanny (not ass, I didn't say ass, you did) about Dutch death panels. Gee, I wonder why? Hmmm? Because I'm not Dutch, you goof. Get it? But the subject did interest me and having heard about it I thought it would be nice to look stuff up and find out what the truth is underneath all the rhetoric. But it is not on the top of my importance list right now. So I decided to put it on my "schedule" to look it up when I get the time. What the hell is wrong with that? It is called prioritizing one's time. Ever heard of that concept?

    Now I am sorry if my priority list doesn't comport with yours, but be honest with yourself and at least acknowledge the point that the Dutch healthcare system is not something that affects me right this minute. You got up on your high horse there and practically condemned me for not caring at all and, in that regard, you are totally, 100% wrong. I do care. But I cannot care and share and devote time and energy to every single wrong in this world. There just ain't enough time, kiddo. Give me a break.

    This is a subject which is obviously dear to your heart and it was my intention to be honest and back away and let you get the input you're looking for, input which I am unable to give at this time. But you insist on making this into a personal attack. Hey, go back and read my original statements and see if you can't understand that nowhere was it my intention to belittle this subject at all. I admitted my ignorance of the facts. So why do you feel it is necessary to attack my belief system and my intelligence and everything else under color of class hatred or whatever it is that prompted your reaction? Methinks you are a wee bit unfair in this, my dear.

    'Nuff said.
    (more)
  • Marek ruthann... 2012/02/28 11:31:58
    Marek
    Excellent post Ruth Ann. Here is what I think on the subject. Government provided medical insurance has its place but it should not be the decision making agency. It should not be the sole provider either it needs competition. The private insurance companies are for profit and it would curb their greed significantly if they would not be able to refuse payments just because treatment becomes expensive. You are right, the insurance companies take the risk which means they know that the costs for insuring some people may well exceed the premiums they pay. For example someone has a treatable form of cancer which costs a lot of money and someone like me pays the premiums and so does the company I work for and we used at most 5% of that money. The insurance company makes the bet that people like are the large majority of insured customers and they will be able to keep some of the money. Now, the risk also means a possibility that the costs will exceed the income but the contract is a contract and must be enforced. The law needs to be changed so that insurance company cannot renege on it by refusing payment for a cancer patient. I don't mind that 95% of my unused premiums go to pay for someone's else treatment because I too entered a contract which stipulates that I help cover to pay...
    Excellent post Ruth Ann. Here is what I think on the subject. Government provided medical insurance has its place but it should not be the decision making agency. It should not be the sole provider either it needs competition. The private insurance companies are for profit and it would curb their greed significantly if they would not be able to refuse payments just because treatment becomes expensive. You are right, the insurance companies take the risk which means they know that the costs for insuring some people may well exceed the premiums they pay. For example someone has a treatable form of cancer which costs a lot of money and someone like me pays the premiums and so does the company I work for and we used at most 5% of that money. The insurance company makes the bet that people like are the large majority of insured customers and they will be able to keep some of the money. Now, the risk also means a possibility that the costs will exceed the income but the contract is a contract and must be enforced. The law needs to be changed so that insurance company cannot renege on it by refusing payment for a cancer patient. I don't mind that 95% of my unused premiums go to pay for someone's else treatment because I too entered a contract which stipulates that I help cover to pay in such case. Another idea is to establish medical savings accounts, a favorite republican proposal that was floating around congress. In that case I could get to keep the unused 95% of the money that went to premiums but it would make me the insurance company. Anyway we in USA already have government insurance that is Medicare for senior people and Medicaid for the poor. 0bama's care effectively defunds those two systems and phases out all the private insurance options becoming the 'single payer' without any competition and because it is government, people are denied choice. Some government pencil pusher, keyboard puncher, or a panel of experts a.k.a. 'death panel' will determine what if any treatment be approved. In case of say a cancer patient the 'single payer' may decide it is too expensive so it will suggest or pressure the doctor and patient that they just let it take its course and if pain becomes too unbearable the government will pay the doctor to kill you. That is in a nutshell the euthanasia the Dutch have and obamacare makes possible if implemented.
    (more)
  • ruthann... Marek 2012/03/05 23:08:11
    ruthannhausman
    +1
    Good response all the way. We pretty much tend to think in a similar fashion. I am going to admit I am not 100% up to speed on the medical field and insurance, etc. I had a partial thyroidectomy back in 1980 that I had to pay for myself because I had just quit my job and hadn't gotten a new insurance policy yet when a lump appeared out of nowhere. So I know very well how expensive it is to be uninsured! But, on the other hand, I've had two hospitalizations that WERE covered by insurance and I wasn't denied any test and I think I got some very good treatment. I suppose there are going to be horror stories that abound on this subject as well as "good" stories. That's why I think we all need to put our heads together and cull out both the griping and the flowery praises and get to the heart of what precisely happens in various medical situations and what the bottom-line solution to the problem is going to be.

    First off, you and I both know that when a bunch of folks get together to form a company to provide a service -- any company, of course, but we're talking insurance now so I'll stick with insurance -- that they are trying to "live the American dream" and get into the free market and make a few gazillion bucks. Heck, it's what we all want, one way or another. So you...

    Good response all the way. We pretty much tend to think in a similar fashion. I am going to admit I am not 100% up to speed on the medical field and insurance, etc. I had a partial thyroidectomy back in 1980 that I had to pay for myself because I had just quit my job and hadn't gotten a new insurance policy yet when a lump appeared out of nowhere. So I know very well how expensive it is to be uninsured! But, on the other hand, I've had two hospitalizations that WERE covered by insurance and I wasn't denied any test and I think I got some very good treatment. I suppose there are going to be horror stories that abound on this subject as well as "good" stories. That's why I think we all need to put our heads together and cull out both the griping and the flowery praises and get to the heart of what precisely happens in various medical situations and what the bottom-line solution to the problem is going to be.

    First off, you and I both know that when a bunch of folks get together to form a company to provide a service -- any company, of course, but we're talking insurance now so I'll stick with insurance -- that they are trying to "live the American dream" and get into the free market and make a few gazillion bucks. Heck, it's what we all want, one way or another. So you're going to have those folks who have mega feelings for people and who want to fix all the health problems in the country for minimal costs to them, and then there are going to be the corporate giants whose only job is to make sure that bottom-line figure every fiscal year reaches the recommended target. Those folks come off appearing robotic at times -- "inhuman" if you will -- because it looks like they don't care about the sick folks, just the monetary side of the picture. And, yeah, in some cases that's true. However, in most cases that is far from true. Those people butt their heads against walls every day trying to keep their own jobs while coming up with multifaceted solutions for the patients they cover. Not an easy task, I'm sure.

    But when all is said and done, I think it would be really nice if tons and tons of folks made input into the subject matter here and, again, put aside any "super good" or "super nasty" feelings they have on this subject and just bat around some ideas until, voila! somebody comes up with a good basis for a fair solution. Are we beyond that capability anymore? I don't know. Seems like there isn't any tendency to try to compromise fairly anymore but more of this "kill the opposition and win the whole ball of wax" attitude. That's a shame because I happen to think there are real solutions to our medical problems in America but we aren't going to come up with them while the abrasive rhetoric continues to prevail.
    (more)
  • DutchHe... ruthann... 2012/03/06 06:33:36
    DutchHeretic Native non-American
    Ruthann , with our (dutch) healthcare system , you would just have gotten treatment , because you are always insured here .. that is what it is all about.
    Commercial healthcare insurances don't take any risks, when you get to expensive, you can be kicked out, something that would never happen in public healrthcare like we have it
  • Guru_T_... ruthann... 2012/02/28 13:45:06
    Guru_T_Firefly
    +1
    "Not all of insurance companies' business is spent ripping off the American public. Hey, they take the risks, they deserve some reward when the bet pays off. So let's stop criticizing insurance companies on the whole and delve into what can be done to change the situation of expensive medical treatments and people dying because of lack of money!"

    By all means, please feel free to list any insurance companies that haven't denied expected coverage to paying customers, or who haven't charged more for a treatment than it was actually worth or who haven't ripped-off their customers by astronomically raising premiums and reducing total coverage.
  • ruthann... Guru_T_... 2012/03/05 23:17:17
    ruthannhausman
    +1
    Rufus, my dear, read my reply to Marek above. (I say "above," but I don't know if that's where it's going to stay once I log off here. But look for it anyway, okay?) I hear what you're saying and I don't totally disagree with them at all. It's a mucked-up subject to begin with, honestly. I would just like to stop all the complaining and countering arguments and get down to trying to find solutions.

    Oh, well, I can only hope some day it happens. Meanwhile, I'm 65 now and slowly but surely don't give a rat's ass anymore. Ooops, sorry, that slipped out. I do care, honest, just not so much. I figure that IF I AM VERY LUCKY, with the lousy genes I've inherited, I'll be fortunate to have as much as 15 years left on this earth. Hey, that ain't a long time. I pretty much would prefer spending that time acting like a kid and having one big, fat party. (That's meant to be an analogy, mind you, I'm not reallly a party animal. Hah!) But I am going to continue monitoring all these stories and opinions and whatnot and, heck, if I come up with any neat, viable ideas, I'll shoot them out immediately. And hope you guys don't shoot them down just as quickly. Hah!
  • Guru_T_... ruthann... 2012/03/06 13:11:45
    Guru_T_Firefly
    Thanks, I've already read that comment and it seems to me that you're placing a insurance company's right to make a profit and to protect those profits above their customer's rightful expectation to use the obscenely-priced medical insurance that they're paying for. The funny thing is that if the Republicans hadn't screwed the pooch royally on the single-payer system that we should have had, we'd all be better off. Even you.
  • Jake 2012/02/26 03:40:06
    Lies! All Lies!
    Jake
    +4
    "Overstated"? If that is euphemistic for lied, then, yes, that's correct. Santorum did not tell the truth about anything regarding Dutch euthanasia. No bracelets, no 10%, no killing by mistake. Watch more here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/2...
  • Jake Jake 2012/02/26 04:04:02
    Jake
    +3
    nd here's an article from the HuffPo that was originally posted on Factcheck.org : http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
  • Marek Jake 2012/02/28 10:35:22
    Marek
    puffington compost and factcheck are outfits financed by Soros and are pure leftist propaganda outlets. They cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
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