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Does Nazi Salute Arrest Violate the First Amendment?

SodaHead News 2010/12/17 20:00:00
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Here's one way to get noticed at a city council meeting -- and, if you want, get illegally arrested.

In California, a homeless advocate who was upset with the council's treatment of the transient population briefly raised his hand in a Nazi salute and was arrested, according to The Los Angeles Times. But a federal appeals court said that violated Robert Norse's First Amendment rights, calling it "viewpoint discrimination." Norse had sued the city for violating his free speech rights.

Officials from the city of Santa Cruz said that activist Norse was arrested for disrupting a public meeting. But federal appeals Chief Judge Alex Kozinski didn't buy it.

"Norse raises his hand in a brief, silent protest of the mayor's
treatment of another speaker," he wrote in an opinion, according to the Times. "The mayor ignores Norse's fleeting gesture
until Councilman [Tim] Fitzmaurice throws a hissy fit."

A lower court had dismissed the case, saying the city was immune from legal liability.

Read More: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-1216-nazi-...

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  • Tracker2 2010/12/17 20:48:19 (edited)
    No
    Tracker2
    +16
    Clicked wrong answer!

    There are some real problems with this:

    1) his action was not a "Nazi salute" since he did not make any other statements that could be considered of a Nazi nature at the time.

    2) freedom of speech at a public meeting held on public ground is protected by the constitution.

    3) saluting or making a gesture is not disturbing the peace or inciting violence otherwise people could not salute the US flag or wave hello.

    4) the officer said he was being arrested for trespassing but this was a public meeting for the public

    5) the officer did not tell him what the charges were before arresting him

    The city council has the right to have people removed IF they are creating a public disturbance and the man refused to leave so he could be arrested for trespassing at that point so the question is if his salute created a public disturbance and from the video it appears only one board member was disturbed and everyone else ignored it.

    I think the board member needs a reprimand for not handling this in a more mature manner and should publicly apologize to the individual.

    I am offended by true white supremacists throwing up a Nazi salute but it looks like this individual was making the point that the city board was acting like Nazi's and therefore his salute was actually a statement a...
    Clicked wrong answer!

    There are some real problems with this:

    1) his action was not a "Nazi salute" since he did not make any other statements that could be considered of a Nazi nature at the time.

    2) freedom of speech at a public meeting held on public ground is protected by the constitution.

    3) saluting or making a gesture is not disturbing the peace or inciting violence otherwise people could not salute the US flag or wave hello.

    4) the officer said he was being arrested for trespassing but this was a public meeting for the public

    5) the officer did not tell him what the charges were before arresting him

    The city council has the right to have people removed IF they are creating a public disturbance and the man refused to leave so he could be arrested for trespassing at that point so the question is if his salute created a public disturbance and from the video it appears only one board member was disturbed and everyone else ignored it.

    I think the board member needs a reprimand for not handling this in a more mature manner and should publicly apologize to the individual.

    I am offended by true white supremacists throwing up a Nazi salute but it looks like this individual was making the point that the city board was acting like Nazi's and therefore his salute was actually a statement against the excessive authority of the council and the video and arrest seems to support him that the city council is abusing their authority and acting like Nazi's.
    (more)

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Opinions

  • nightlight V 2010/12/20 10:28:17
    nightlight
    +1
    Because this question only requires a yes or a no; either this man's First Amendment rights were violated or they weren't.
  • SillyLegs 2010/12/20 01:54:59
    Yes
    SillyLegs
    +3
    It wasn't a Nazi salute. He moved his hand into the air. He said nothing. If he had said "HEIL HITLER" it would be a Nazi salute. There is virtually no proof. Besides, he didn't interrupt anything.
  • V SillyLegs 2010/12/20 02:00:41
    V
    are you pro-nazi? or really racist? because what you just said exactly the problem with humans. blind rage, and blind commenting are all the fight that was just put up by you. and also, you contradicted your answer to "is he in violation..." by saying yes then arguing that he's not in violation.
  • SillyLegs V 2010/12/20 02:14:39 (edited)
    SillyLegs
    +4
    If you had read the question more carefully, you would see that it asks "is the arrest of this man breaking the first amendment", not "is this man in violation of the law"
    Yes, the arrest of this man is breaking the first amendment. He can raise his hand if he wishes, and there was no cause to arrest him. Please think before you answer...or call me a pro-nazi racist.
  • V SillyLegs 2010/12/20 02:51:29
    V
    i didnt call you anything, i asked two simple questions, and unlike most people on sodahead, i do think before i type. but the way you answered the question made it seem as though you were pro nazi, which is why the arrest is necessary. its similar to the recent westboro baptist church episode. people who use hate as a motive to aleinate others is a crime in itself. this man should've been arrested, and so should the minister who protested the soilders funeral. its about being motivated by hate. thats a bad cause, and to use it at a public meeting, for what? effect? its pure ignorance. ignorance should be persecuted.
  • nightlight V 2010/12/20 10:31:56
    nightlight
    +1
    You implied that she was both a pro-Nazi and a racist.
  • michael nightlight 2010/12/20 14:38:12
    michael
    Nazis will be Nazis
  • nightlight michael 2010/12/21 00:32:31
    nightlight
    +1
    Did you watch the video? This guy did nothing to indicate that he was a Nazi and even if he had and had given the Nazi salute, it would not have justified his arrest.
  • V nightlight 2010/12/21 17:05:31
    V
    well, it wasnt intended to sound like i had implied she was a nazi. i was really just asking what her statement meant, because in her arguement she stated that there is no proof, and that made it seem like she was pro nazi. it was a harmless question. i guess i apologize for implying anything that was out of context. just asking.
  • CHARLESS V 2010/12/20 14:20:49
    CHARLESS
    +1
    You definitely implied that she was pro Nazi.
    You also suggested she was racist.
    With no justification for either charge.
  • V CHARLESS 2010/12/21 17:09:23
    V
    i didnt mean to inply anything, i was just asking the question because her arguement was for the nazi salute, also impling that she was a nazi. but i honestly dont think thats the point here. none of us really even have enough informatin n this to be judging it. especially mayself. i nor anyone else is in contact with the people involved with it.
  • CHARLESS V 2010/12/21 17:16:49
    CHARLESS
    Fair response. Have a nice day. ;)
  • V CHARLESS 2010/12/21 17:34:44
    V
    you do the same :)
  • michael V 2010/12/20 14:37:46
    michael
    She is a nazi.
  • NoName michael 2010/12/20 21:33:20
    NoName
    +2
    On what basis that can be gleaned from the story alone?
  • V michael 2010/12/21 17:09:34
    V
    im a nazi?
  • michael V 2010/12/21 23:11:35
    michael
    No. The weirdos up above defending that crap. Have them give me the Nazi sign and BOOM BOOM OUT GO THE LIGHTS. I have no time for Nazis or supporters like those above
  • NoName michael 2010/12/22 16:42:34
    NoName
    No, we "wierdos" merely believe in something called the first amendment, obviously you don't since you wish to act violently towards those who do so use it in an offensive manor.

    [Defending the right to express a point of view from a specific group does niot mean you actually ARE from said organization, it's very basic logic]
  • V michael 2011/01/01 20:56:22 (edited)
  • Sofahead V 2010/12/21 00:24:05 (edited)
    Sofahead
    +3
    Having viewed the clip, his salute was sarcasm, which reflected what he thought about the verdict/judgement. The worst case scenario is he was accusing the councilman of being like a Nazi. The arrest comes across as the retaliation of a thin skinned official who blew the whole occurance out of proportion that one really can't justify and violating Norse's First Amendment Rights. Comparing Norse to the Westboro Baptist Church cult (my opinion) is a major logic leap the provided evidence doesn't support.

    It seems that you may think before you type but how you preceive things brings you to a faulty conclusion.

    It appears the Nazis are a particularly touchy subject for you.
  • V Sofahead 2010/12/21 17:14:13
    V
    it is, and i was mistaken when i started these arguements because i was under the impression that this man was confirmed a nazi, and was arrested on the charge of disturbing the peace, and making a scene at a public meeting. i 100% think this man should've been arrested for the action he took, because racial slurrs and nazi salutes are high on my list of things to tear down in my high school. so i apologize for the comments under false assumptions.
  • SillyLegs V 2010/12/21 03:43:35 (edited)
    SillyLegs
    +1
    You suggested that I was a pro-nazi racist. If you would like a reference, read your comment above. Even if the man in the video was a Nazi, which he clearly is not, that falls under the first amendment. He can support what he likes as long as he does not disrupt. And, referring to your last argument, if ignorance was persecuted, you would be persecuted for the things you have ignorantly referred to me as.
  • V SillyLegs 2010/12/21 17:18:59
    V
    there was no intention to call you anything along those lines, and i apologize for the comments that may have offended you. in my defence though, your relply about there being no proof that he is a nazi seemed to me that you were supportive of this party, which i am strongly against. so i was only asking you a simple question. if this website could demonstrate the way i vocaly meant it, the typing wouldn't be as harsh. so again, i apologize.
  • ~!LenaS... SillyLegs 2010/12/20 03:34:20 (edited)
    ~!LenaSaurus.RaWr!~
    +1
    you dont actually have to say "heil hitler" in order for it to be a NAzi salute. trust me i know.
  • master ... ~!LenaS... 2010/12/20 04:47:54
    master of free thinking
    +3
    in swiss and some parts of austria saying "heil" is nothing more than a salute. dont worry about nazis. these days are gone.
  • V master ... 2010/12/21 17:22:44
    V
    unfortunatly, the days of nazis are not gone, because they're continued by ignorant people (usually younger teens who will follow easily) who decided that racial prejudice is going to somehow better the world. its very common in the area i live to be a raciest person or a nazi. that includes my family, but i choose to be above that because i see the ingorance in it. so the days of nazi's are not gone, its just weakened.
  • ~!LenaS... V 2010/12/24 05:20:20
  • master ... ~!LenaS... 2010/12/24 07:07:25
    master of free thinking
    Its youre opinion and You have the right to Say It. in my Country i would go to jail for this
  • V ~!LenaS... 2011/01/01 20:47:10
    V
    but why? as an entire whole, what have each "group" done to you? in my city, there are a ton of black,mexican, and white gangs, but that doesnt mean every black, mexicn and white person in my city is that kind of person. i know quite a few black, mexican, and white people who are highly respected people around my community, some my friends, some in law enforcement, some just hard working people who are just living. My black and mexican aquantences are normal, average people looking to live a normal and fun life. not out to kill, rape and murder everyone like the supposed local gangs. maybe the only thing your seeing from the peopple in your area of those races is destruction. and even if you've seen it elsewhere, the fact that they are black or mexican has nothing to do with the wrong doings. the black guy down the street might be doing nothing wrong, while the white guy in the car is doing a drug deal. its all based on the individual person. race has absolutely nothing to do with character, except the steriotypes that follow them. i, personally, am racist agains idiots. i hate the man/woman who robs the local mini-mart whether they are black, purple, yellow, aquamarine, or freaking blue. it doesnt matter. some people of their race choose to live up to a steriotype, but the people who dont give another person a chance (to prove themselves as good people) based on a skin color, or facial or body features, are living up to just as horrible steriotypes; idiots.
  • nightlight SillyLegs 2010/12/20 10:29:38
    nightlight
    +2
    Even if he had said "Heil Hitler", he would have been within his First Amendment rights to do so.
  • michael SillyLegs 2010/12/20 14:37:09
    michael
    Idiots will be idiots. Let em play dress up Nazi day. Who cares. Take picturres and send them to every employer in the world.
  • zkittle06 2010/12/20 01:39:20
    No
    zkittle06
    It's just what they want and furthers their agenda. Ignore them, and if they do something violent, throw them in jail as long as possible.
  • paleale 2010/12/20 01:32:10
    No
    paleale
    It does not violate freedom of speech, but there are gray areas surrounding hate crimes that it might violate.
  • bjamnjm 2010/12/20 01:22:42
    No
    bjamnjm
    +1
    I'm still waiting for justice to be served re: the two black panthers (I forget if they were new or used) harassing voters at a 2008 polling station.

    I don't believe being a neo-nazi or giving the hitler salute violates the 1st Amendment but this poor homeless advocate isn't one nor was he giving the salute.

    The City Council of Santa Cruz was merely treating the meek as expected
  • Smokey 2010/12/20 01:02:28
    Yes
    Smokey
    Let them bastards salute so that I can take good aim at their chest!!!!

    bastards salute aim chest sniper
  • nightlight Smokey 2010/12/20 10:35:00
    nightlight
    +1
    If you would "take good aim at their chest!!!!" because someone made a hand gesture that you didn't like, then you are against the First Amendment of our Constitution.
  • Smokey nightlight 2010/12/20 13:09:57
    Smokey
    I'm not against First Amendment rights of American citizens. I was only reacting "emotionally" because I can't stand ignorant racists. However, even though I disagree with them, they have a right to voice his/her opinion and make any kind of gestures they choose.

    I wouldn't shot them, but if I were in a room one on one with a Skinhead, Nazi, Black Panther, Terrorist, I'd kick his mother#$%#@##!@ ass! :)

    Thanks,

    Smokey
  • NoName Smokey 2010/12/20 21:34:29
    NoName
    Uh... that would still be violating the guy's rights - you'd want to act violently for him doing a jackassed thing.
  • Smokey NoName 2010/12/21 01:25:21
    Smokey
    BenBook,

    I'm ONLY saying what I'd like to do, but I'd have to respect his rights. It's the same way when someone is arrested for being accused as a Child Molestor!

    I'd want to cut his #$@ off, but that wouldn't solve anything. I'd have to respect our judicial system.

    Can't you understand what I'm trying to say? DAMN! :)

    Smokey
  • nightlight Smokey 2010/12/21 00:36:43 (edited)
    nightlight
    If you found yourself in a room with with Skinheads, Nazis, Black Panthers, or Muslim terrorists, the thing to do would be to quitely observe them and try to hear what they were saying so you could report it to the police - not to sink to their level by physically attacking them.

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