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Do you support net neutrality?

Steven Crowder 2011/05/24 01:27:01
Related Topics: Net Neutrality
Yes, I support net neutrality
No, I do not want more government regulation of the internet
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  • Patriot Unit 2011/05/24 03:49:17
    No, I do not want more government regulation of the internet
    Patriot Unit
    +7
    NO, and I sure don't want the government having any more power than they all ready have taken for themselves. In fact there are many other places they need to get their greedy paws out of our lives.

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  • Decided... Ken 2011/05/27 21:50:16
    Decided to Leave SH
    Lol.....I didn't think so.

    Funny stuff....lol
  • Ken Decided... 2011/05/27 23:01:45
    Ken
    Wow...so you think the government giving money loaning billions to banks in return for ownership positions is capitalism? Cause that is what was happening in October 2008.
  • Decided... Ken 2011/05/27 23:16:57
    Decided to Leave SH
    Yeah, sure thing.

    Whatever you say, Mr. Ken.

    I had you pegged from the beginning....lol

    Funny, funny stuff.
  • Decided... Ken 2011/05/27 13:28:32
    Decided to Leave SH
    There are more differences between us than that, believe me.

    What other "large companies" in different industries do you consider to be a government "extension"?
  • Ken Decided... 2011/05/27 19:46:05
    Ken
    I really don't know how to answer that directly. The economics of certain industries tends to favor monopolies. When a single company achieves monopoly, innovations tends to slow down unless the government intervenes.

    So large companies that behave like extensions of the government today include, Verizon, Comcast, IBM, Microsoft.

    Companies which have behaved this way in the past are US Steel and General Motors. If you don't believe me, watch the movie Tucker to see how the relationship between GM and the government prevented a new manufacturer from building cars in the US. Because these companies stifled innovation in the US, the US no longer dominates steel or automobile production for the world.

    IMO, net neutrality properly implemented will prevent the owners of the last mile of the internet from stifling innovation and assure America remains the most innovative producer of internet services. It would be a terrible shame to lose our dominant position in this market like we did with mobile phones.
  • Decided... Ken 2011/05/27 21:52:16
    Decided to Leave SH
    No worries....After no opinion on Obama regarding capitalism, I've heard (or read) all I need to read...lol
  • Decided... Ken 2011/05/24 14:50:25 (edited)
    Decided to Leave SH
    +1
    I would be interested to read more on this....Any unbiased sources to help elaborate on this?

    I mean, I realize you are very liberal in your commenting and opinions, so I wonder where you got your info on these executives.
  • Ken Decided... 2011/05/24 16:17:54
    Ken
    +1
    Finding unbiased sources on any topic is difficult. But you can learn as much by reading between the lines of biased sources, reading the arguments on both sides, and trying to understand the interests of the individuals and companies with these biases. After reading this information, try to establish what is in your best interest. (Also avoid the ideologues with absolute positions as they rarely have anything interesting to say. So if the argument against net neutrality is simply "government regulation is bad" ignore it. To much regulation is bad. No regulation is worse but the ideologues don't get it.)

    Net neutrality is a topic that has interested me for a long time but not nearly as long as regulation of the "telephone" market. My interest in regulating the telephone market goes back to a seminar in the early to mid-80s explaining the deregulation of the long distance and equipment markets. It was fascinating to learn the history of telecommunications, the social benefits of giving AT&T a regulated monopoly, and how this regulation had become a burden on society. After this seminar, I helped various clients exploit the business opportunities this deregulation presented. Since then I have followed the story closely.

    Since I acquired my knowledge over 30 years, It is...

    &&







    Finding unbiased sources on any topic is difficult. But you can learn as much by reading between the lines of biased sources, reading the arguments on both sides, and trying to understand the interests of the individuals and companies with these biases. After reading this information, try to establish what is in your best interest. (Also avoid the ideologues with absolute positions as they rarely have anything interesting to say. So if the argument against net neutrality is simply "government regulation is bad" ignore it. To much regulation is bad. No regulation is worse but the ideologues don't get it.)

    Net neutrality is a topic that has interested me for a long time but not nearly as long as regulation of the "telephone" market. My interest in regulating the telephone market goes back to a seminar in the early to mid-80s explaining the deregulation of the long distance and equipment markets. It was fascinating to learn the history of telecommunications, the social benefits of giving AT&T a regulated monopoly, and how this regulation had become a burden on society. After this seminar, I helped various clients exploit the business opportunities this deregulation presented. Since then I have followed the story closely.

    Since I acquired my knowledge over 30 years, It is hard to cite references. There may be a good book on the topic but I have no clue what it is. Here are my research suggestions.

    Look at the bio's of Verizon executives. You will discover most of them started with one of the "Bell Operating Companies", i.e., AT&T, a regulated monopoly until sometime in the late 80s, to early 90s. When these gentlemen joined the AT&T family, it had been a regulated monopoly for about 2 generations. This meant their bosses and mentors had grown up within a regulated environment and taught them how to manage a regulated utility as a monopoly. This dramatically impacts subjective decisions like pricing. You can find those bios here http://www22.verizon.com/onec...

    Next look at Verizon lobbying efforts and read about their spending and priorities. Probably the easiest way to do this is to perform a google search on the phrase "Verizon lobbyists". I could point you to specific articles but that would reflect my bias. It is probably better you pick yourself. I don't know if you can find it anymore but particularly fascinating was their efforts to enter the TV distribution business while keeping cable out of the local telephone business. One month they are arguing they shouldn't be required to get agreements with every local government to deliver TV services and the next month they are arguing Cable companies should be required to negotiate with every local government to deliver 911 capability and rules should be establish to prevent anyone without 911 service from advertising local telephone service.

    I am less familiar with cable companies but see similar behaviors and recommend the same research for a company like Comcast. Read the history of the cable companies...the jail sentences for bribing local officials and look into the early contracts. Again cable systems originated as local monopolies regulated by local government and outgrew their regulators through consolidation.

    Finally Net Neutrality google the phrase "google and net neutrality". Repeat this for the other leading internet services. Focus on why these companies have changed their position between 2006 and the present.

    If you do this, you should have a good grasp of the issues, personalities, and implications of the debated on net neutrality. I know it is a lot of work but no pain no gain.
    (more)
  • Decided... Ken 2011/05/24 18:03:55
    Decided to Leave SH
    +1
    Wow..So many words to say so little, but I do thank you for the effort.
  • Ken Decided... 2011/05/26 21:44:07 (edited)
    Ken
    So you didn't consider the pointer to Verizon resumes of its leadership to be an unbiased source of information about Verizon executives? Would Verizon post negative information about its executives?

    Here by the way is the same thing for Comcast. http://www.comcast.com/Corpor...
    Notice in Mr Roberts resume the reference to the part he played in deregulating the cable industry in 1996. Comcast executives have more competitive experience than Verizon but there are still a large number of individuals who grew up running locally regulated monopolies, i.e. local cable companies, including the founder and the chairman of the board. This may explain why Verizon beat Comcast in the battles over 911 service and TV service. Comcast was required to negotiate with local government for 911 access and Verizon was not required to negotiate with local government to sell TV delivery services.
  • Lynn Ken 2011/05/24 18:38:39 (edited)
    Lynn
    +1
    I proposed nothing of the sort. You assume too much.
  • Decided... Lynn 2011/05/24 14:50:46
    Decided to Leave SH
    +2
    A liberal, especially "Progressive", left-leaning mind cannot or just refuses to understand that once gov't. incrementally increases its grip, (always for a "good" reason) it eventually becomes the controller -- not just a regulator/moderator in the background -- but a controller -- quality and value goes to hell in a handbasket along with any concern for the consumer.

    Just a sad, but easily verifiable fact.
  • Ken Decided... 2011/05/24 18:50:57
    Ken
    A progressive is defined as someone who wants to change things. A conservative is someone who wants to maintain the status quo. The government created the internet and therefore is entitled to keep control of that which it created. Failure to do so is likely to place America at a competitive disadvantage.

    So don't calling me a progressive. Your language is simply wrong and resemble Animal Farm.
  • Decided... Ken 2011/05/24 19:40:30
    Decided to Leave SH
    Oh - excuse me....I am so sorry for calling you a Progressive...lol

    It's easy to see via your comments on SH that you tend to lean left and support Progressives, Progressive causes and policy.

    So, I apologize...I'll just call you a supporter of liberal, left-wing, Progressive politics and ideas.

    You can call yourself whatever you choose, and you can call me whatever you choose.

    Very little has the government "controlled" in the history of this country regarding business and commerce that has NOT become competitively disadvantaged IMO.
  • Ken Decided... 2011/05/24 21:10:34
    Ken
    Interesting point of view...let's go back to 1970. What country had the best telephone system in the world? Best highway system? most reliable electrical grid? Safest public water supply? Cheapest natural gas?

    In 1973, all these things were regulated by the government. Today telephone service, the electrical grid, and the natural gas supply have been deregulated. Does America still have the best in the world for all of these things?

    I believe in 1970 we had excessive government regulation and although this post may sound otherwise, the deregulation of the telephone system was absolutely necessary. AT&T would have stifled the government's introduction of the internet for example.

    When I was in my 20s, I bought the whole libertarian Ayn Rand philosophy. As I grew older, I discovered places where Government intervention and regulation have helped. One of the best examples is the telephone system...by providing for universal service and permitting AT&T to create a regulated monopoly, this country acquired the best telephone system in the world. As a period of rapid technical change emerged, the government deregulated the industry appropriately. As the industry has consolidated and Verizon has recreated the old AT&T monopoly without government regulation, the telephone ...

    Interesting point of view...let's go back to 1970. What country had the best telephone system in the world? Best highway system? most reliable electrical grid? Safest public water supply? Cheapest natural gas?

    In 1973, all these things were regulated by the government. Today telephone service, the electrical grid, and the natural gas supply have been deregulated. Does America still have the best in the world for all of these things?

    I believe in 1970 we had excessive government regulation and although this post may sound otherwise, the deregulation of the telephone system was absolutely necessary. AT&T would have stifled the government's introduction of the internet for example.

    When I was in my 20s, I bought the whole libertarian Ayn Rand philosophy. As I grew older, I discovered places where Government intervention and regulation have helped. One of the best examples is the telephone system...by providing for universal service and permitting AT&T to create a regulated monopoly, this country acquired the best telephone system in the world. As a period of rapid technical change emerged, the government deregulated the industry appropriately. As the industry has consolidated and Verizon has recreated the old AT&T monopoly without government regulation, the telephone system in this country has fallen slightly behind Europe and dramatically behind the services available in countries like India and Japan. It is almost embarrassing to discuss cell phone service in this country with Europeans and the Japanese and Indians just laugh at our antiquated systems.

    It is this perspective that influences my position on net neutrality. Establishing the appropriate allocation for various bandwidth consumers is necessary. I would prefer to see this accomplished in public forums rather than behind closed doors during contract negotiations.
    (more)
  • Decided... Ken 2011/05/24 21:38:18 (edited)
    Decided to Leave SH
    +1
    So, you are asserting that you believe America has declined in the areas being discussed because of LACK of government intervention.

    You are asserting that America needs to change toward more of a European and Asian model of socialistically-regulated commerce.

    Sounds like a Progressive to me..lol

    Can you point me to some references regarding your claim that America is laughed at regarding our technology regarding the subject at hand?

    Let's see, according to the collective "Progressive" opinion of the U.S.A. when it comes to the way the rest of the world views America, we are laughed at, disrespected, hated, mocked, etc. --- Yet so many still want
    to come here to live.

    Hopefully, you are commenting for your own sake, and not anyone else whom you might want to convince to think along your chosen left leaning opinions.
  • Ken Decided... 2011/05/25 02:07:57
    Ken
    +1
    I am asserting that American infrastructure has declined in comparison to the rest of the world. I have asserted we need an effective government but have not suggested we mimic Europe or Asia....but I am afraid we are mimicking Mexico where the rich own everything including the government.
  • Decided... Ken 2011/05/25 02:26:51
    Decided to Leave SH
    +1
    IMO, American infrastructure has collectively declined because of government -- not from the lack of its control.

    And if that collective infrastructure is ever is replenished, renewed, and re-energized, it will be in spite of the government's grip or the loosening of it as a result of the political reformation of it.
  • Ken Decided... 2011/05/25 05:54:24
    Ken
    The facts are in 1970, the FCC regulated the telecom industry setting rates, aka, tariffs, during rate setting hearing. It also regulated TV and radio although I believe the regulation was less onerous. The trucking, rail, and gas pipeline industries were similarly regulated by the ICC with each company required to publish tariffs and offer the same prices on the same terms to all customers. Pricing for electricity and gas delivered to the home was regulated by state utility commissions and for insurance by state insurance commissions. Pricing for the cable industry was established by cities and townships. Most of this regulatory regimen was established between 1910 and 1940.

    So if the deregulation pursued in the 1980s and the 2000s, was so successful why has America lost the competitive advantage it had in 1970? I actually agreed with your argument. Unfortunately, history didn't seem to be on my side. I am still fishing for the right balance between private initiative and government regulation but do not buy the argument that the infrastructure has declined because of increasing government regulation.

    Since 1980, the Republicans have reduced regulations on business and increased regulation on individuals, e.g. requirements to board an airplane. In 1970, all I needed t...

    The facts are in 1970, the FCC regulated the telecom industry setting rates, aka, tariffs, during rate setting hearing. It also regulated TV and radio although I believe the regulation was less onerous. The trucking, rail, and gas pipeline industries were similarly regulated by the ICC with each company required to publish tariffs and offer the same prices on the same terms to all customers. Pricing for electricity and gas delivered to the home was regulated by state utility commissions and for insurance by state insurance commissions. Pricing for the cable industry was established by cities and townships. Most of this regulatory regimen was established between 1910 and 1940.

    So if the deregulation pursued in the 1980s and the 2000s, was so successful why has America lost the competitive advantage it had in 1970? I actually agreed with your argument. Unfortunately, history didn't seem to be on my side. I am still fishing for the right balance between private initiative and government regulation but do not buy the argument that the infrastructure has declined because of increasing government regulation.

    Since 1980, the Republicans have reduced regulations on business and increased regulation on individuals, e.g. requirements to board an airplane. In 1970, all I needed to board an airplane was a valid ticket. That ticket did not need to be issued in my name and I did not need to produce any identifying information for domestic flights. In December, 1972 the FAA under the Ford (a Republican) introduced the metal detector requirement. Sometime during the Reagan administration, the requirement to provide identify information for domestic flights was introduced. And then the Bush administration introduced the onerous requirements in place today. So while the Republicans have increased corporate freedom they eliminated the right to travel without identity information. One of the reasons my father gave me for being glad I lived in the US and not the Soviet Union.

    IMO, history demonstrates individual freedom leads to a strong America when combined with a regulation of corporations. While regulation of the individual while deregulating corporation leads to a weak America.
    (more)
  • dabloc Decided... 2011/05/25 09:49:48
    dabloc
    Would you please explain how it's declined because of Government so those moronic libtards, those Odimwits, would understand? They just don't get it, do they? They're so stupid and being led by that massiah pretender person they worship. We need to privatize the infrastructure, just like we'd privatize healthcare and get rid of that awful Medicare. Screw all those bleeding hearts and senior citizens. Who needs them anyway.
  • Decided... dabloc 2011/05/25 18:18:50 (edited)
    Decided to Leave SH
    Who needs senior citizens, most of whom need healthcare, medicine and treatment for chronic as well as acute illness that is inevitable with aging? --- And what should we do with them?...Let's ask former Sec. of Labor, admitted Socialist, and "Democrat", Robert Reich --Oh wait!....I thought that was what REPUBLICANS wanted to do with senior citizens.....You my friend are a sarcastic dumbass, who perceives him/herself as a smartass.....Good luck on "getting it".

    Thanks for your comment, sarcasm notwithstanding.

  • Ken Decided... 2011/05/25 06:22:29
    Ken
    The observation is based on personal experience in England, France, and China and comments from folks who travel between India and the US. A quick google search, however, turned up the following comparisons:
    Costs of mobile phone service in Europe vs. North America from 2009
    http://news.cnet.com/8301-103...
    Discussion of the differences by an industry insider from 2006:
    http://mobileopportunity.blog...

    These articles essentially substantiate my own experience with Europe and are better documentation.

    Generally my experience is that a cell phone user in China or Europe can bring their phone to the US and use it here. While US cellular subscribers cannot do the same in Europe and China.

    Here are some references suggesting the electric grid is less reliable:
    http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews... - This article suggests the decline in reliability is a concern to the Dpt of Energy.
    http://www.electricenergyonli... - This article discusses the implications of the August, 2003 black out that shut down much of the nation's business. Personally, I was aware it happened but my wife died on August 15, 2003 so there bigger concerns in my life at that time. It wasn't in my case but I suspect there are others who lost loved ones because of this incident.

    So these references provide some basi...
    The observation is based on personal experience in England, France, and China and comments from folks who travel between India and the US. A quick google search, however, turned up the following comparisons:
    Costs of mobile phone service in Europe vs. North America from 2009
    http://news.cnet.com/8301-103...
    Discussion of the differences by an industry insider from 2006:
    http://mobileopportunity.blog...

    These articles essentially substantiate my own experience with Europe and are better documentation.

    Generally my experience is that a cell phone user in China or Europe can bring their phone to the US and use it here. While US cellular subscribers cannot do the same in Europe and China.

    Here are some references suggesting the electric grid is less reliable:
    http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews... - This article suggests the decline in reliability is a concern to the Dpt of Energy.
    http://www.electricenergyonli... - This article discusses the implications of the August, 2003 black out that shut down much of the nation's business. Personally, I was aware it happened but my wife died on August 15, 2003 so there bigger concerns in my life at that time. It wasn't in my case but I suspect there are others who lost loved ones because of this incident.

    So these references provide some basis for my assertions in the previous post. I have not provided references for Natural Gas because I believe that to date, deregulation in Natural Gas has been a good idea....but hitting 1 out of 3 is only acceptable if you are a baseball player.
    (more)
  • IRanOut... Ken 2011/05/27 15:36:10
    IRanOutofAliases
    "A quick google search"

    There you go. Since net neutrality all liberal propaganda makes it to the top. The more it gets involved, the worse it effects what it was intended to help. Mountains of history to prove that. Provided you're not getting your information from their government or their puppets.
  • mjollnir 2011/05/24 04:38:18
    No, I do not want more government regulation of the internet
    mjollnir
    Except for child porn. But I'm not the only one that thinks that.
  • Ken mjollnir 2011/05/24 04:41:14
    Ken
    So you prefer to let Verizon and Comcast regulate the internet?
  • mjollnir Ken 2011/05/24 05:08:49
    mjollnir
    +1
    I don't think it should be regulated at all.
  • mjollnir mjollnir 2011/05/24 05:09:22
    mjollnir
    +1
    Aside from looking for illegal behaviors.
  • Ken mjollnir 2011/05/24 05:13:25
    Ken
    +1
    Well that isn't an option. To maintain service levels, someone must regulate the internet. Otherwise when you neighbor decides to down load every American Movie made in the 20th century, you will not be able to access Sodahead.

    Net neutrality is about who will perform the regulation and the guidelines for such regulation.
  • mjollnir Ken 2011/05/24 05:17:01
    mjollnir
    +1
    Aah. Well, it certainly shouldn't be the government.
  • Ken mjollnir 2011/05/24 05:30:13
    Ken
    +1
    In a monopoly situation, the government, IMO, is the preferred regulatory. The logic is simple a monopoly without government regulation acts in the best interests of its owners and not its customers or suppliers. In a democracy, the government can never be a monopoly because if you don't like their decisions, you vote for someone else.

    Everything in the constitution is designed to prevent monopolies of power from arising. We need to continue to apply the logic of our founding fathers to modern problems.
  • mjollnir Ken 2011/05/24 05:53:16
    mjollnir
    However... It seems these days that quite a lot of members of our government ignore the Constitution. It says that any power not explicitly given to the government in the Constitution is given to the states.. There is that exception clause, but I can't recall what it says exactly. I don't think that this falls under it, though.
  • Ken mjollnir 2011/05/24 06:03:28
    Ken
    As Eisenhower warned would happen if we continued to support the military industrial complex. Just as Goldwater warned Republicans of the impending take over by preachers. ... So now we are stuck with choice between one political party and one religion.
  • mjollnir Ken 2011/05/24 06:07:20
    mjollnir
    I hate that it's come to be that way. I don't much like either side...
  • Ken mjollnir 2011/05/24 06:08:57
    Ken
    aint that the truth
  • mjollnir Ken 2011/05/24 06:11:36
    mjollnir
    +1
    Well.. Have a good night! I ought to be getting to bed. <__>
  • jon Ken 2011/05/24 18:29:13
    jon
    +1
    Ken ...are you one of the new administration plants?
    You answer few questions but participate in any involved discussion.
    You have a very ready and large source of carefully crafted data.
    You involve yourself with matters political and some of social deprivation.
    Your opinions are unique in their almost universal support of very liberal agenda
    Particularly any that involves the present administration. I have never seen so fully one-sided set of arguments before on any of these sites. Combined with the impeccable language, syntax, and grammar I have my doubts and curiosity is peaked.
    I think that anyone entering into discussion with you would be well advised to receive much of what you say with the caveat emptor it deserves.
  • Ken jon 2011/05/24 18:45:39
    Ken
    +1
    You definition of conservative is to change things in a radical manner. My definition of conservative is to maintain the status with a few narrow exceptions where the status quo is not working.

    Telephone and cable companies are traditionally "common carriers" which has meant they are required to carry all traffic on the same terms. These principles served America very well during the 20th century and can continue to serve the country.

    Admittedly this is not the progressive agenda conservatives want me to support.
  • jon Ken 2011/05/24 18:51:54
    jon
    +1
    Your good I have to say that distract alter the stand the reposition the contestants good for you ... not buying it
  • Ken jon 2011/05/24 20:50:16 (edited)
    Ken
    Jon....The following is provided in the interest of full disclosure and to help you appropriately discount my positions.

    Because of a job action, I retired last year which gives me time to pursue other interests. My pension and investments provide adequate income for me to live comfortably. My former employer also pays my health insurance. At this point, none of my income comes from the government although I plan to collect social security when I am old enough. I have not ruled out going back to work and evaluate several employment opportunities per week.

    A significant portion of my income is derived from rental properties in Phoenix. I began acquiring these properties in 2008 when the bottom fell out of the market. The remainder of my portfolio is in a variety of stocks, mutual funds, and one small start up where I was an Angel Investor. These investments may influence my political positions as I know my political positions influence my investments.

    Public policy and religion fascinate me and so recently, I have spent considerable time addressing these questions on Sodahead. As you note, I am well educated and strongly opinionated. Because the researching the facts to support positions is how we learn, I try to substantiate my positions with links to information sour...

    Jon....The following is provided in the interest of full disclosure and to help you appropriately discount my positions.

    Because of a job action, I retired last year which gives me time to pursue other interests. My pension and investments provide adequate income for me to live comfortably. My former employer also pays my health insurance. At this point, none of my income comes from the government although I plan to collect social security when I am old enough. I have not ruled out going back to work and evaluate several employment opportunities per week.

    A significant portion of my income is derived from rental properties in Phoenix. I began acquiring these properties in 2008 when the bottom fell out of the market. The remainder of my portfolio is in a variety of stocks, mutual funds, and one small start up where I was an Angel Investor. These investments may influence my political positions as I know my political positions influence my investments.

    Public policy and religion fascinate me and so recently, I have spent considerable time addressing these questions on Sodahead. As you note, I am well educated and strongly opinionated. Because the researching the facts to support positions is how we learn, I try to substantiate my positions with links to information sources. Feedback that points out overlooked facts is greatly appreciated but it seems stupid to disagree without providing supporting facts which can be substantiated.

    No one pays me for either my research or comments....although if someone made me an offer, I would consider it. It would be wonderful to get paid to do what I enjoy but I am not certain the obligations that come with the money would be worth it.
    (more)
  • dabloc jon 2011/05/24 23:24:43
    dabloc
    Odd, but you sound like another one of the corporate spin room plants. There is no such thing as a "liberal agenda" nor "administration plants." Those things are right wing creations to defray the real truth about who they are and their, the right wing, agenda. They, who like you, manipulate the gullible followers into thinking those things exist, when you know the only plants here are from the right wing spin rooms. You, who have the agenda to fool and deceive the masses. You are the ones representing the interests of the big corporations who oppose intervention on behalf of the people. You are the ones who bash the President with smears and insults, myths and distortions, fabrications, innuendos and blatant lies.

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