Question News & Politics

Do religious churches and other organizations value the financial advantage of tax-exempt status more than stopping abortion in this country?

+LadyO+that's all she wrote! November 20, 2009 17:56:40

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/branch_ministries.pdf
reads in part:
"...(plaintiffs, a Church denied tax exempt status)..have failed to establish that the revocation
has imposed a burden on their free exercise of religion. Plaintiffs were offered a choice: they
could engage in partisan political activity and forfeit their Section 501(c)(3) status or they could
refrain from partisan political activity and retain their Section 501(c)(3) status. That choice is
unconnected to plaintiffs’ ability to freely exercise their religion."


Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
Yes. Without name-calling, here's my opinion:
No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.
I am incapable of anything but hate.
You!
Add Photos & Videos

Top Comment
  • +8 477777 November 20, 2009 21:49:04
    477777

    No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.

    Religious oppression is so ingrained in our society and the church, that they can't see the separation!
    View thread
Sort By
  • Most Raves
  • Least Raves
  • Oldest
  • Newest
Comments
  • Carl 519378 November 23, 2009 07:15:00
    Carl
    Have you ever observed wind? Not the effects of wind but the wind itself? I've never seen the wind but I do believe in the wind.

    There are some things in life that we can not explain through observation or science.
  • 519378 Carl November 23, 2009 07:26:40
    519378
    Your faith in some religious idea does not mean I must believe the same as you.
    That is what it means to be an American.
    We are each free to believe as we feel is proper and no Government Ruling or Law can force you to believe the same as I believe.
  • Carl 519378 November 23, 2009 07:42:02
    Carl
    You haven't answered my wind question.
  • 519378 Carl November 23, 2009 17:54:40
    519378
    Have you ever heard the color yellow?
    Yes, I have felt the wind. Yes, I have measured air pressure.
    Yes, I have seen the clouds move and the fog move.

    Your question does not prove the truth of the objects of your faith.
    How do you measure your god?
    How do you measure a soul in a fetus?
  • Carl 519378 November 24, 2009 01:31:52
    Carl
    One is having a near experience. A very unusual life event. I felt safe, loved, warm and unafraid.
  • +8
    477777 November 20, 2009 21:49:04
    477777

    No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.

    Religious oppression is so ingrained in our society and the church, that they can't see the separation!
  • +3
    +LadyO+... 477777 November 21, 2009 02:27:36
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    Thanks for your thoughts, 477777.
  • +2
    phoenix.ovid November 20, 2009 21:38:06 (edited)
    phoenix.ovid

    No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.

    I'm really really stoned and it took a bit to figure out the question. So if I got it right the churches must chose between government benefits or moral and secular beliefs. In the first place I can't see how the government can get away with discrimination. But, a key sentence in your post may hold the key. Let me paste, "a choice: they could engage in partisan political activity and forfeit their Section 501(c)(3) status or they could refrain from partisan political activity and retain their Section 501(c)(3) status"



    First off the First Amendment prohibits the Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion", prohibiting the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech and infringing on the freedom of the press". So if politics is not allowed to be involved with religion then how is religion involved with it?



    So now this 'Partisan Political Activity' must mean that there has been a crossover between church and state and the First Amendments says that's a no-no. So, is it the government interfering with the church or has the church used it's status to influence politics? I can't see how the government can discriminate between churches without violating the First Amendment so I must assume that from the term, 'Partisan Political Activity', it...
    I'm really really stoned and it took a bit to figure out the question. So if I got it right the churches must chose between government benefits or moral and secular beliefs. In the first place I can't see how the government can get away with discrimination. But, a key sentence in your post may hold the key. Let me paste, "a choice: they could engage in partisan political activity and forfeit their Section 501(c)(3) status or they could refrain from partisan political activity and retain their Section 501(c)(3) status"



    First off the First Amendment prohibits the Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion", prohibiting the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech and infringing on the freedom of the press". So if politics is not allowed to be involved with religion then how is religion involved with it?



    So now this 'Partisan Political Activity' must mean that there has been a crossover between church and state and the First Amendments says that's a no-no. So, is it the government interfering with the church or has the church used it's status to influence politics? I can't see how the government can discriminate between churches without violating the First Amendment so I must assume that from the term, 'Partisan Political Activity', it must mean that somehow the church has involved itself where it really is not allowed. Because not believing in abortion is not 'Partisan Political Activity'. It's a religious belief and the gov can't discriminate for that. So, I think there's more to this than abortion. There is huge reason there is a separation between church and state. In fact America is based on it.
    (more)
  • +3
    +LadyO+... phoenix... November 21, 2009 02:31:31
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    Wow, you came up with all that while stoned? Not bad.

    Open the link and read the case if you haven't already done so. It addresses some of the (very good) questions you raised.

    Thanks for voting, phoenix ovid.
  • +2
    phoenix... +LadyO+... November 21, 2009 08:01:59
    phoenix.ovid
    I checked out the link and as I suspected, it has nothing to do with abortion or the church's views or beliefs. It has to do with violating the rules of the statute. Title 42 United States Code, Section 2000bb-1 Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

    [On October 30, 1992, four days before the election, plaintiff Branch Ministries, Inc. (“BMI”), doing business as the Church at Pierce Creek, expressed its concern about the moral character of Governor Clinton in a full page advertisement in the Washington Times and in USA Today. The advertisement proclaimed “Christian Beware. Do not put the economy ahead of the Ten Commandments.” It asserted that Governor Clinton supported abortion on demand, homosexuality and the distribution of condoms to teenagers in public schools. The advertisement cited various Biblical passages and stated that “Bill Clinton is promoting policies that are in rebellion to God’s laws.” It concluded with the question: “How then can we vote for Bill Clinton?” At the bottom of the advertisement, in fine print, was the following notice: “This advertisement was co-sponsored by The Church at Pierce Creek, Daniel J. Little, Senior Pastor, and by churches and concerned Christians nationwide. Tax-deductible donations for this advertisement gladly accepted. Make don...
    I checked out the link and as I suspected, it has nothing to do with abortion or the church's views or beliefs. It has to do with violating the rules of the statute. Title 42 United States Code, Section 2000bb-1 Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

    [On October 30, 1992, four days before the election, plaintiff Branch Ministries, Inc. (“BMI”), doing business as the Church at Pierce Creek, expressed its concern about the moral character of Governor Clinton in a full page advertisement in the Washington Times and in USA Today. The advertisement proclaimed “Christian Beware. Do not put the economy ahead of the Ten Commandments.” It asserted that Governor Clinton supported abortion on demand, homosexuality and the distribution of condoms to teenagers in public schools. The advertisement cited various Biblical passages and stated that “Bill Clinton is promoting policies that are in rebellion to God’s laws.” It concluded with the question: “How then can we vote for Bill Clinton?” At the bottom of the advertisement, in fine print, was the following notice: “This advertisement was co-sponsored by The Church at Pierce Creek, Daniel J. Little, Senior Pastor, and by churches and concerned Christians nationwide. Tax-deductible donations for this advertisement gladly accepted. Make donations to: The Church at Pierce Creek,” and provided a mailing address. Defs’ Motion for Summ. J., Decl. of Peter Lorenzetti,
    Exh. E. 1
    At the time the advertisement was published, BMI was an organization exempt from taxation pursuant to 26 U.S.C. § 501(c)(3). On October 31, 1992, the New York Times published an article entitled “Religious Right Intensifies Campaign for Bush.”]

    Section 501(c)(3) provides that any organization “operated exclusively for religious, charitable, [or other specified] purposes, . . . and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office” shall be exempt from taxation. 26 U.S.C. § 501(c)(3). The IRS asserts that it revoked the Section 501(c)(3) advance determination because the church undertook partisan political activity in direct violation of Section 501(c)(3).

    Subsection (c)(3) describes “[c]orporations . . . organized and operated exclusively for religious . . . purposes . . . which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.” 26 U.S.C. § 501(c)(3). 4
    In this case, the Secretary determined, in compliance with the procedures set forth in CAPA, that the Church at Pierce Creek, while it remained a bona fide church, was not an organization described in Section 501(c)(3) because it had published or distributed a statement in opposition to a candidate for public office. Because the Secretary determined that the Church at Pierce Creek was not an organization described in Section 501(c)(3), he had the statutory authority to determine that it was no longer a church that was exempt from taxation under Section 501(a) and to revoke its Section 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status. See 26 U.S.C. § 7611(d)(1)(A).


    The reason that their tax exempt status was revoked was because:
    "At the bottom of the advertisement, in fine print, was the following notice: “This advertisement was co-sponsored by The Church at Pierce Creek, Daniel J. Little, Senior Pastor, and by churches and concerned Christians nationwide. Tax-deductible donations for this advertisement gladly accepted. Make donations to: The Church at Pierce Creek,” and provided a mailing address"

    When people give contributions to a church they're tax deductible, when that church uses those donations to publish political papers, whether for or against a candidate, then those tax deductible donations have now become part of a political venue and are not exempt from taxation. By the church refusing the comply with an audit and provide names of the contributors they basically interfering with an investigation. They can't claim the Fifth because this is not a criminal investigation. It pretty much is tantamount to Contempt of Court when a reporter refuses to disclose his sources. The Church Audit Procedures Act (“CAPA”), 26 U.S.C. § 7611.

    So, in conclusion, the issue is not abortion, not the church being a real church, but that they violated the rules of the statute that gives them tax exempt status and refused to comply with an audit or provide information necessary to investigate. The first mistake was to attack a candidate and sign their name to it, the second was to ask for contributions while doing so and to further more attacks on Bill, and third they obstructed justice by refusing to comply to the audit. Try telling the IRS 'screw you' if you get audited and see what happens. The church can't have it both ways, the rule applies to them both for the exemption and the rules to keep it or it never did.

    I'm not a lawyer but I used to play one in prison. LOL Now it's time to smoke a bowl.
    (more)
  • +3
    +LadyO+... phoenix... November 21, 2009 22:22:10
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    No, time to put the bowl away.
    You kind of contradicted yourself there when you said, "the issue is not abortion.." but then cite the attacks on a political candidate for his position on that issue.
    I'm pretty darn sure, like 99%, that if then-candidate Gov. Clinton had been against legal abortion, the Branch Ministries would not have taken out the ad or admonished people that they were breaking the Ten Commandments by voting for him.

    Political activites are NOT tax deductable, and lobbying to change the law is outside of the realm of Tax-emempt statatus.

    I'm not an attorney either; but I've heard enough homilies and noted the timing of fundraising homilies, pre-Election warnings from the pulpit, and the avoidance of mentioning either abortion and birth control when a major fundraising campaign is being launched.

    okay, now you go back to your bowl ( 0 8
  • +1
    phoenix... +LadyO+... November 22, 2009 01:23:21
    phoenix.ovid
    Actually there was no contradiction. The issue is the 'ad' not the content of the ad. Any attack violated the contract. I have an IQ of 150, so I have always been fascinated with knowledge. In prison I was a jail house lawyer and I fought many a civil case against the prison for other inmates. I like to think I know the rules of jurisprudence. In the link listed in this post it directed me to a .pdf file with this case. I pasted excerpts from it on my comment. In fact quite a bit of the case law and reasons for the ruling. It clearly states that all actions were because this church took out an ad in violation 'as they undertook partisan political activity' in direct violation of Section 501(c)(3). It has nothing to do with abortion. They could have told people not to vote for Clinton because he was a Womanizer or a Martian and it still would have violated the contract of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The fact this ad was purchased using church monies, which were tax deductible, is at issue. That and the blatant solicitation of more tax exempt contributions in that the bottom of the advertisement, in fine print, was the coup de finition: “This advertisement was co-sponsored by The Church at Pierce Creek, Daniel J. Little, Senior Pastor, and by churches and concerned Ch...
    Actually there was no contradiction. The issue is the 'ad' not the content of the ad. Any attack violated the contract. I have an IQ of 150, so I have always been fascinated with knowledge. In prison I was a jail house lawyer and I fought many a civil case against the prison for other inmates. I like to think I know the rules of jurisprudence. In the link listed in this post it directed me to a .pdf file with this case. I pasted excerpts from it on my comment. In fact quite a bit of the case law and reasons for the ruling. It clearly states that all actions were because this church took out an ad in violation 'as they undertook partisan political activity' in direct violation of Section 501(c)(3). It has nothing to do with abortion. They could have told people not to vote for Clinton because he was a Womanizer or a Martian and it still would have violated the contract of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The fact this ad was purchased using church monies, which were tax deductible, is at issue. That and the blatant solicitation of more tax exempt contributions in that the bottom of the advertisement, in fine print, was the coup de finition: “This advertisement was co-sponsored by The Church at Pierce Creek, Daniel J. Little, Senior Pastor, and by churches and concerned Christians nationwide. Tax-deductible donations for this advertisement gladly accepted. Make donations to: The Church at Pierce Creek,” and provided a mailing address." This is their wording, not the government's.

    The reason their tax exempt status was revoked was because they violated the contract of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act in that they participated in trying to intervene in a political campaign in opposition to a candidate.
    Per: Subsection (c)(3) Which describes “[c]orporations . . . organized and operated exclusively for religious . . . purposes . . . which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.” 26 U.S.C. § 501(c)(3).4
    This violated their tax exempt status. It does not say 'what they can or can't say', just that they can't say anything 'for or against' a candidate.

    Abortion is not the issue, the church violating the rules by placing a partisan ad is. Oh, by the way, you did notice that there was a 'More' click at the bottom of my last post/comment, Que no? (Just wondering as I made it clear to these same facts at the end.) It was the church who made it an abortion issue, not the government or the statute. They had to present it as if it was an issue of beliefs because they agreed to the terms of the statute to gain benefits from it but did not adhere to those rules, thereby violating the contractual agreement they had with the government. Just so they could cry foul, when in fact it was they who committed the foul when they intimated that it was because of abortion that their status was revoked, when in fact the issue was the ad itself.
    (more)
  • +3
    +LadyO+... phoenix... November 22, 2009 01:57:46
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    Well, the point I was trying to make is if they forego their tax exempt status, I think they could be more effective in their lobbying efforts.
    The problem is, they want to "have theri cake and eat it, too."
    The court expressed in legal terms, but wrote said the same thing.
  • +2
    phoenix... +LadyO+... November 22, 2009 02:45:01 (edited)
    phoenix.ovid
    I'm not too sure if they can still call themselves a church though, as there is a clear separation between church and state, at least in America. To become politically involved they sacrifice the protection the First Amendment gives them. That being the lack of government involvement. You can't hit someone and then say they can't hit you back.
  • +3
    +LadyO+... phoenix... November 22, 2009 02:53:02
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    Whew! Yes, exactly right.
    You "get it".
    whew
  • +2
    phoenix... +LadyO+... November 22, 2009 03:10:06
    phoenix.ovid
    Do religious churches and other organizations value the financial advantage of tax-exempt status more than stopping abortion in this country?

    Yeah, I had forgotten the original question. It wasn't if government had erred in removing their status, it was whether they valued 'financial advantage' over morals and beliefs. I think I got thrown because usually if you see the word 'Abortion' in a post, it's some rabid attack on a politician that supports it. Personally I don't like it but I'm not God so it isn't my right to force a decision.

    So, I stand corrected, but twas a good gathering of knowledge anyways, and I've been wasted all day. Seems we basically have the same to say only you based it on the moral question and I on the legal. I was born without a creative side. I can't draw a picture but I can draw blueprints for a machine. In place of creative, I have logic and reason.
  • +3
    +LadyO+... phoenix... November 22, 2009 03:39:23
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    Not a waste for me, phoenix. You proved that there are intelligent signs of life on the polls after all.
    It was nice having an intelligent exchange on a substantive topic, and I would like to thank you for that.
    Have a good night, phoenix.
  • +1
    phoenix... +LadyO+... November 22, 2009 03:50:40
    phoenix.ovid
    Actually I've been a felon since the day after I turned 18. No voting for me, although I have a few times before I became a fugitive. Thank you.
  • +3
    Kent th... phoenix... November 22, 2009 04:03:30
    Kent the Roofer
    Hit nail on the head Pictures, Images and Photos
  • +3
    ptete in left I trust November 20, 2009 21:00:31
    ptete in left I trust

    No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.

    There are way too many religious organizations that are endorsing candidates from the pulpit and condemning candidates from the pulpit. I don't care if they want to do that however if they do they need to give up their tax exempt status. Church and state need to be kept separate. If they want to mix it, then they need to lose their tax exempt status.
  • +1
    +LadyO+... ptete i... November 21, 2009 02:32:40
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    Good points in your response.
    Thanks for voting, ptete in left I trust.
  • +3
    mavericky ~ In Godot We Trust November 20, 2009 20:36:19
    mavericky ~ In Godot We Trust

    No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.

    Churches are businesses and, just like any other business entity, they are going to do what they can to keep themselves profitable. If it means steering their followers in a certain direction, they are more than welcome to do it. However, they need to follow the same rules as any other entity with non-profit status and not endorse candidates or tell their congregation how to vote. Speaking out against abortion would not put them over that line, in my opinion anyway.
  • +1
    +LadyO+... maveric... November 21, 2009 02:33:47
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    Good comment, mavericky ~ In Godot We Trust.
    Thanks for voting.
  • +1
    teachaman November 20, 2009 20:31:57
    teachaman

    No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.

    I don't think the tax-exempt status is such a decidedly big deal to most honest, decent people of faith. That's not to say there are no churches out there lead or peopled by folks that aren't necessarily honest. The central issue is not so much the way that the church is perceived as it is WHO is doing the perceiving. A politician or political organization that is of an antithetical position with that of a particular church is likely to find the members / leadership of that church to be preaching political doctrine rather than liturgical dogma. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the tenets of faith can be viewed by someone outside the boundries of that faith as something other than faith. If in fact a church supports a particular candidate publicly, as in having a particular candidate or his/her supporter(s) publicly speak at the church plant to the church members about a political campaign, then yes - it is obvious that that church should lose any tax-exempt status. On the other hand, if the leader or if members of a congregation discuss how their particular faith deals with certain secular positions / realities that face their church, that discussion should be considered protected under the First Amendment because it is about the interplay between the secula...
    I don't think the tax-exempt status is such a decidedly big deal to most honest, decent people of faith. That's not to say there are no churches out there lead or peopled by folks that aren't necessarily honest. The central issue is not so much the way that the church is perceived as it is WHO is doing the perceiving. A politician or political organization that is of an antithetical position with that of a particular church is likely to find the members / leadership of that church to be preaching political doctrine rather than liturgical dogma. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the tenets of faith can be viewed by someone outside the boundries of that faith as something other than faith. If in fact a church supports a particular candidate publicly, as in having a particular candidate or his/her supporter(s) publicly speak at the church plant to the church members about a political campaign, then yes - it is obvious that that church should lose any tax-exempt status. On the other hand, if the leader or if members of a congregation discuss how their particular faith deals with certain secular positions / realities that face their church, that discussion should be considered protected under the First Amendment because it is about the interplay between the secular and the theological, usually dealing with how church members can go between both worlds. Jesus of Nazareth, when his enemies tried to trap Him in along the same lines, said "Render unto Ceaser the things that are Ceaser's, and unto God the things that are God's" ...
    (more)
  • +1
    +LadyO+... teachaman November 21, 2009 02:35:40
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    Terrific, insightful observations. Intelligent approach to the question, too.
    Thanks for sharing, teachaman.
  • +1
    mara November 20, 2009 19:53:33
    mara

    No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.

    Churches should not be allowed to dictate the law of the land. If someone has an opinion that I will go to hell, because I am pro-choice, let them, As an individual they can rant all they want or even protest in front of my home but they should not b e allowed to dictate laws.

    Overpopulation puts the whole planet at risk of misery and death. That is my opinion.
  • +1
    +LadyO+... mara November 21, 2009 02:36:47
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    And a valid opinion it is, mara.
    Thank you for a civil response as well.
  • +2
    Nobamaforu November 20, 2009 19:44:58
    Nobamaforu

    No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.

    You're citing the case of a church that the IRS has found to be using the status while simultaneously stumping for candidates. I don't call that a church, I call it someone well versed in tax law who obtained a minister's certificate and declared himself a church.

    I've been in many churches from many different denominations. The closest I ever heard any of them come to politics was to ask the congregation to say a prayer of guidance for the leaders of the Countries of the world.

    As far as abortion goes, you may not know this but many churches donate to charitable organizations that in turn, support abortions. Although the church is against abortions, they are for helping the poor so their donations are given with the hope but not the guarantee, that the money will not be used for that purpose.
  • +2
    +LadyO+... Nobamaforu November 21, 2009 02:44:26
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    You are one of the few who seem to have actually read the referenced court case before posting a comment. Rave just for that ( o 8
    While the plaintiff in the cited case was not a large church, I believe it applies to major religious institutions. i.e., large evangelical (Protestant) churches, Mormon and Catholic as well. I can only speak for the Catholic Church in that until recent years we were counseled from the pulpit to vote according our conscience, not based on any one issue of a campaign.
    If you would, please share examples of which churches and those organizations supporting abortion.( I'm curious.)
    You put a lot of thought into your post, and I appreciate the effort, as well as your civil demeanor. Thanks for posting, Nobamaforu.
  • +1
    Nobamaforu +LadyO+... November 21, 2009 02:56:02
    Nobamaforu
    Thank you very much. Here's a link that references what I was talking about. http://www.reformcchdnow.com/ It's the second offering on Nov. 22nd.
  • +1
    +LadyO+... Nobamaforu November 21, 2009 03:09:21
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    Wow, that's quite a link...(eyes widening)
  • +1
    Nobamaforu +LadyO+... November 21, 2009 03:13:19
    Nobamaforu
    I know. I was shocked myself when I found out.
  • +2
    Bob™ the Union Ironworker November 20, 2009 19:31:52
    Bob™ the Union Ironworker

    No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.

    No you can tackle both.
  • +LadyO+... Bob™ th... November 21, 2009 02:45:07
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    Did you open and read the link?
    Thanks for voting, Bob.
  • +2
    Bob™ th... +LadyO+... November 21, 2009 04:19:20
    Bob™ the Union Ironworker
    no I will when I have time, it is a hard issue for me as a Catholic
  • +LadyO+... Bob™ th... November 21, 2009 04:36:48
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    You're telling me; talk about mixed feelings.
  • +2
    Bob™ th... +LadyO+... November 21, 2009 05:04:02
    Bob™ the Union Ironworker
    yes I am a bit in denial
  • +1
    +LadyO+... Bob™ th... November 21, 2009 05:06:45
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    If you think that's hard, wait until you start coming out of denial.
  • +2
    Bob™ th... +LadyO+... November 21, 2009 13:41:03
    Bob™ the Union Ironworker
    I know, what the bishops are doinging in DC is pissing me off. What the Catholics and Mormons did in California with Prop 8. They need to preach morals and stay out of politics.
  • +2
    +LadyO+... Bob™ th... November 21, 2009 22:23:26
    +LadyO+that's all she wrote!
    Agree.
or
Cancel