Question News & Politics
Do religious churches and other organizations value the financial advantage of tax-exempt status more than stopping abortion in this country?
+LadyO+that's all she wrote! November 20, 2009 17:56:40
- 32 answers
- Read all 116 comments
- +9 raves
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/branch_ministries.pdf
reads in part:
"...(plaintiffs, a Church denied tax exempt status)..have failed to establish that the revocation
has imposed a burden on their free exercise of religion. Plaintiffs were offered a choice: they
could engage in partisan political activity and forfeit their Section 501(c)(3) status or they could
refrain from partisan political activity and retain their Section 501(c)(3) status. That choice is
unconnected to plaintiffs’ ability to freely exercise their religion."
Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
reads in part:
"...(plaintiffs, a Church denied tax exempt status)..have failed to establish that the revocation
has imposed a burden on their free exercise of religion. Plaintiffs were offered a choice: they
could engage in partisan political activity and forfeit their Section 501(c)(3) status or they could
refrain from partisan political activity and retain their Section 501(c)(3) status. That choice is
unconnected to plaintiffs’ ability to freely exercise their religion."
Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
Loading... 

Top Comment
-
No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.
Religious oppression is so ingrained in our society and the church, that they can't see the separation!View thread







There are some things in life that we can not explain through observation or science.
That is what it means to be an American.
We are each free to believe as we feel is proper and no Government Ruling or Law can force you to believe the same as I believe.
Yes, I have felt the wind. Yes, I have measured air pressure.
Yes, I have seen the clouds move and the fog move.
Your question does not prove the truth of the objects of your faith.
How do you measure your god?
How do you measure a soul in a fetus?
No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.
No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.
First off the First Amendment prohibits the Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion", prohibiting the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech and infringing on the freedom of the press". So if politics is not allowed to be involved with religion then how is religion involved with it?
So now this 'Partisan Political Activity' must mean that there has been a crossover between church and state and the First Amendments says that's a no-no. So, is it the government interfering with the church or has the church used it's status to influence politics? I can't see how the government can discriminate between churches without violating the First Amendment so I must assume that from the term, 'Partisan Political Activity', it...
First off the First Amendment prohibits the Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion", prohibiting the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech and infringing on the freedom of the press". So if politics is not allowed to be involved with religion then how is religion involved with it?
So now this 'Partisan Political Activity' must mean that there has been a crossover between church and state and the First Amendments says that's a no-no. So, is it the government interfering with the church or has the church used it's status to influence politics? I can't see how the government can discriminate between churches without violating the First Amendment so I must assume that from the term, 'Partisan Political Activity', it must mean that somehow the church has involved itself where it really is not allowed. Because not believing in abortion is not 'Partisan Political Activity'. It's a religious belief and the gov can't discriminate for that. So, I think there's more to this than abortion. There is huge reason there is a separation between church and state. In fact America is based on it.
Open the link and read the case if you haven't already done so. It addresses some of the (very good) questions you raised.
Thanks for voting, phoenix ovid.
[On October 30, 1992, four days before the election, plaintiff Branch Ministries, Inc. (“BMI”), doing business as the Church at Pierce Creek, expressed its concern about the moral character of Governor Clinton in a full page advertisement in the Washington Times and in USA Today. The advertisement proclaimed “Christian Beware. Do not put the economy ahead of the Ten Commandments.” It asserted that Governor Clinton supported abortion on demand, homosexuality and the distribution of condoms to teenagers in public schools. The advertisement cited various Biblical passages and stated that “Bill Clinton is promoting policies that are in rebellion to God’s laws.” It concluded with the question: “How then can we vote for Bill Clinton?” At the bottom of the advertisement, in fine print, was the following notice: “This advertisement was co-sponsored by The Church at Pierce Creek, Daniel J. Little, Senior Pastor, and by churches and concerned Christians nationwide. Tax-deductible donations for this advertisement gladly accepted. Make don...
[On October 30, 1992, four days before the election, plaintiff Branch Ministries, Inc. (“BMI”), doing business as the Church at Pierce Creek, expressed its concern about the moral character of Governor Clinton in a full page advertisement in the Washington Times and in USA Today. The advertisement proclaimed “Christian Beware. Do not put the economy ahead of the Ten Commandments.” It asserted that Governor Clinton supported abortion on demand, homosexuality and the distribution of condoms to teenagers in public schools. The advertisement cited various Biblical passages and stated that “Bill Clinton is promoting policies that are in rebellion to God’s laws.” It concluded with the question: “How then can we vote for Bill Clinton?” At the bottom of the advertisement, in fine print, was the following notice: “This advertisement was co-sponsored by The Church at Pierce Creek, Daniel J. Little, Senior Pastor, and by churches and concerned Christians nationwide. Tax-deductible donations for this advertisement gladly accepted. Make donations to: The Church at Pierce Creek,” and provided a mailing address. Defs’ Motion for Summ. J., Decl. of Peter Lorenzetti,
Exh. E. 1
At the time the advertisement was published, BMI was an organization exempt from taxation pursuant to 26 U.S.C. § 501(c)(3). On October 31, 1992, the New York Times published an article entitled “Religious Right Intensifies Campaign for Bush.”]
Section 501(c)(3) provides that any organization “operated exclusively for religious, charitable, [or other specified] purposes, . . . and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office” shall be exempt from taxation. 26 U.S.C. § 501(c)(3). The IRS asserts that it revoked the Section 501(c)(3) advance determination because the church undertook partisan political activity in direct violation of Section 501(c)(3).
Subsection (c)(3) describes “[c]orporations . . . organized and operated exclusively for religious . . . purposes . . . which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.” 26 U.S.C. § 501(c)(3). 4
In this case, the Secretary determined, in compliance with the procedures set forth in CAPA, that the Church at Pierce Creek, while it remained a bona fide church, was not an organization described in Section 501(c)(3) because it had published or distributed a statement in opposition to a candidate for public office. Because the Secretary determined that the Church at Pierce Creek was not an organization described in Section 501(c)(3), he had the statutory authority to determine that it was no longer a church that was exempt from taxation under Section 501(a) and to revoke its Section 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status. See 26 U.S.C. § 7611(d)(1)(A).
The reason that their tax exempt status was revoked was because:
"At the bottom of the advertisement, in fine print, was the following notice: “This advertisement was co-sponsored by The Church at Pierce Creek, Daniel J. Little, Senior Pastor, and by churches and concerned Christians nationwide. Tax-deductible donations for this advertisement gladly accepted. Make donations to: The Church at Pierce Creek,” and provided a mailing address"
When people give contributions to a church they're tax deductible, when that church uses those donations to publish political papers, whether for or against a candidate, then those tax deductible donations have now become part of a political venue and are not exempt from taxation. By the church refusing the comply with an audit and provide names of the contributors they basically interfering with an investigation. They can't claim the Fifth because this is not a criminal investigation. It pretty much is tantamount to Contempt of Court when a reporter refuses to disclose his sources. The Church Audit Procedures Act (“CAPA”), 26 U.S.C. § 7611.
So, in conclusion, the issue is not abortion, not the church being a real church, but that they violated the rules of the statute that gives them tax exempt status and refused to comply with an audit or provide information necessary to investigate. The first mistake was to attack a candidate and sign their name to it, the second was to ask for contributions while doing so and to further more attacks on Bill, and third they obstructed justice by refusing to comply to the audit. Try telling the IRS 'screw you' if you get audited and see what happens. The church can't have it both ways, the rule applies to them both for the exemption and the rules to keep it or it never did.
I'm not a lawyer but I used to play one in prison. LOL Now it's time to smoke a bowl.
You kind of contradicted yourself there when you said, "the issue is not abortion.." but then cite the attacks on a political candidate for his position on that issue.
I'm pretty darn sure, like 99%, that if then-candidate Gov. Clinton had been against legal abortion, the Branch Ministries would not have taken out the ad or admonished people that they were breaking the Ten Commandments by voting for him.
Political activites are NOT tax deductable, and lobbying to change the law is outside of the realm of Tax-emempt statatus.
I'm not an attorney either; but I've heard enough homilies and noted the timing of fundraising homilies, pre-Election warnings from the pulpit, and the avoidance of mentioning either abortion and birth control when a major fundraising campaign is being launched.
okay, now you go back to your bowl ( 0 8
The reason their tax exempt status was revoked was because they violated the contract of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act in that they participated in trying to intervene in a political campaign in opposition to a candidate.
Per: Subsection (c)(3) Which describes “[c]orporations . . . organized and operated exclusively for religious . . . purposes . . . which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.” 26 U.S.C. § 501(c)(3).4
This violated their tax exempt status. It does not say 'what they can or can't say', just that they can't say anything 'for or against' a candidate.
Abortion is not the issue, the church violating the rules by placing a partisan ad is. Oh, by the way, you did notice that there was a 'More' click at the bottom of my last post/comment, Que no? (Just wondering as I made it clear to these same facts at the end.) It was the church who made it an abortion issue, not the government or the statute. They had to present it as if it was an issue of beliefs because they agreed to the terms of the statute to gain benefits from it but did not adhere to those rules, thereby violating the contractual agreement they had with the government. Just so they could cry foul, when in fact it was they who committed the foul when they intimated that it was because of abortion that their status was revoked, when in fact the issue was the ad itself.
The problem is, they want to "have theri cake and eat it, too."
The court expressed in legal terms, but wrote said the same thing.
You "get it".
Yeah, I had forgotten the original question. It wasn't if government had erred in removing their status, it was whether they valued 'financial advantage' over morals and beliefs. I think I got thrown because usually if you see the word 'Abortion' in a post, it's some rabid attack on a politician that supports it. Personally I don't like it but I'm not God so it isn't my right to force a decision.
So, I stand corrected, but twas a good gathering of knowledge anyways, and I've been wasted all day. Seems we basically have the same to say only you based it on the moral question and I on the legal. I was born without a creative side. I can't draw a picture but I can draw blueprints for a machine. In place of creative, I have logic and reason.
It was nice having an intelligent exchange on a substantive topic, and I would like to thank you for that.
Have a good night, phoenix.
No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.
Thanks for voting, ptete in left I trust.
No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.
Thanks for voting.
No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.
Thanks for sharing, teachaman.
No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.
Overpopulation puts the whole planet at risk of misery and death. That is my opinion.
Thank you for a civil response as well.
No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.
I've been in many churches from many different denominations. The closest I ever heard any of them come to politics was to ask the congregation to say a prayer of guidance for the leaders of the Countries of the world.
As far as abortion goes, you may not know this but many churches donate to charitable organizations that in turn, support abortions. Although the church is against abortions, they are for helping the poor so their donations are given with the hope but not the guarantee, that the money will not be used for that purpose.
While the plaintiff in the cited case was not a large church, I believe it applies to major religious institutions. i.e., large evangelical (Protestant) churches, Mormon and Catholic as well. I can only speak for the Catholic Church in that until recent years we were counseled from the pulpit to vote according our conscience, not based on any one issue of a campaign.
If you would, please share examples of which churches and those organizations supporting abortion.( I'm curious.)
You put a lot of thought into your post, and I appreciate the effort, as well as your civil demeanor. Thanks for posting, Nobamaforu.
No, and I can post without resorting to name-calling.
Thanks for voting, Bob.