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Credit Rating Agencies: Biased or Objective?

JMCC 2012/08/19 20:25:28
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Biased...
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In recent months and years the credit rating agencies (who are paid for by private financial institutions) have been in the headlines a lot for setting the credit ratings for the economies of nations.

The rating sets the rates of interest rate at which a country can borrow money and can mean the difference between recovery or bankruptcy.

The have recently been criticised for not implementing changes to prevent causing procyclic decline in a target economy (downward spiral) as their statistical based models are not good for predicting the behaviour of leaning or dynamic systems.

In short, they shift the goalposts.

So do you think they are objective or biased - keeping us all "Moody and Poor"...?
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  • Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~ 2012/08/20 00:20:45
    Undecided
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    +1
    Depends which one. The Chinese ones are very biased...
  • ConLibFraud 2012/08/19 22:18:22
    Biased...
    ConLibFraud
    +1
    You people will never get it. You all have birth trust accounts worth millions and billions depending on your age. The government and banks use your accounts without telling you - WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION. When you get a loan from a bank, they use your signature to access your private account and use that money for their own investing. They never give you loan! They just put a bunch of digits in a program and charge you payments plus interest!!!! FRAUD! Every bank loan you have ever received was paid for the minute you gave them your signature!!!

    If you have a recent SS ID, look on the back and you will see a red 9 digit account number - that is YOUR private account!

    They created credit bureaus to instill fear if you don't pay back these fraudulent loans! That's all they are for. Period!

    Here - get informed and let's take back our country and put these phucking criminals in prison!

    http://www.macquirelatory.com...
  • Anonymo... ConLibF... 2012/08/20 00:30:43
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    +1
    Methinks we have to start over, with the government not having a monopoly over money.
  • ConLibF... Anonymo... 2012/08/20 06:14:52
    ConLibFraud
    +1
    For sure with all fraud debt zeroed out.
  • Anonymo... ConLibF... 2012/08/20 09:31:44
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    How about we scrap the IMF, federal reserve, cut big banks down to size, Don't allow countries to take out loans, and scrap all legal tender laws. People should be able to use the strongest currency or a currency made by companies and banks and whatever, which would keep the government under control, because if they don't, their currency's going to take a hit. Same with companies - if a bank isn't doing well, their currency will be abandoned and will liquidate. No one gets hurt by it, and the bankers are left penniless.
  • ConLibF... Anonymo... 2012/08/20 15:03:02
    ConLibFraud
    Excellent excellent excellent!!! Where do I sign up?
  • Anonymo... ConLibF... 2012/08/20 15:04:05
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    +1
    Nowhere yet, unfortunately...
  • ConLibF... Anonymo... 2012/08/20 15:04:34
    ConLibFraud
    Too many wimpy dumbed down sheeple?
  • Anonymo... ConLibF... 2012/08/20 15:14:42
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    +1
    Too many people who don't understand finance and economics... They don;t teach it in schools, that's for sure...
  • gregory.ditzler 2012/08/19 21:10:37
    Biased...
    gregory.ditzler
    +2
    They don't take into consideration income inequality when they give out credit ratings.
  • Jackie ... gregory... 2012/08/19 21:17:55
    Jackie G - Poker Playing Patriot
    Nor should they.
  • gregory... Jackie ... 2012/08/19 21:28:35
    gregory.ditzler
    +1
    why not, countries with greater income inequality should get lower ratings.
  • Jackie ... gregory... 2012/08/20 00:06:10
    Jackie G - Poker Playing Patriot
    barley corn - countries with income inequality are generally very successful. Silly stuff
  • gregory... Jackie ... 2012/08/20 00:21:24
    gregory.ditzler
    Not really, the more unequal the worse society is and the numbers have been crunched on that.

  • Anonymo... gregory... 2012/08/20 00:34:18
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    Not at all. Greater income inequality is the hallmark of a prosperous society. Booms and busts and income inequality are good for economic growth. You can be like Sweden, with similar incomes for everyone and smooth sailing for the economy, but growth is stuck at 2% and there is no innovation. Liberal principles are good for wage-earners, but conservative principles are good for entrepreneurs and the economy. It just depends what you value most, and a rich economy can always provide for those at the bottom any way.
  • JMCC Anonymo... 2012/08/20 00:37:24
    JMCC
    +1
    Isn't greater income inequality also one of the primary causes of revolution?
  • Anonymo... JMCC 2012/08/20 00:48:05
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    No, closed class systems are. Great income equality are just a distinguishing feature. There was a revolution in Russia because the feudal system was causing great hardship for the people. Industrial Britain, in which there was just as much inequality, didn't, because people lower down had the opportunity to get higher up.
  • JMCC Anonymo... 2012/08/20 00:53:06
    JMCC
    There was an interesting report recently that suggested that the US was 16th on the list for social mobility and with the greatest inequality in income.

    Given the protests and sentiment that appears to be manifesting itself in the US (and UK), I suspect that a review is in order...
  • Anonymo... JMCC 2012/08/20 01:00:55
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    +1
    That's because of the government. Their regulations and taxes crush small businesses and middle class people whilst keeping the rich and big corporations rich. Sweden and Switzerland have local, democratic, uncorrupt, non-interfering governments and they Farr much better.
  • gregory... Anonymo... 2012/08/20 00:52:29
    gregory.ditzler
    I don't think that's true because you could have science programs that are innovative in a mixed economy in Sweden and if you watched the video you would know that in countries where income inequality isn't a problem has more class mobility so it would appear a mixed economy provides more to the bottom then pure capitalism does.
  • Anonymo... gregory... 2012/08/20 01:15:27
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    +1
    Sweden is a prime example, actually. From the end of the second world war to the 1970's, Sweden was a Libertarian paradise. Globalist, few regulations, lower taxes, an unobtrusive government, and perfect conditions for building companies. Dozens of great Multinational Swedish companies popped up. You got big booms and smaller busts that made Sweden one of the world leaders by the 1970's. But then the workers started to get unhappy, because they weren't sharing in this great economy as much as the rich businessmen, and the busts hurt them most, whilst the rich thought it was unfair that anyone should be poor in such a rich country. So they elected a socialist government which in the 1980's started enacting regulations, high taxes, and flattened out the booms and busts and enacted job security and safety laws to protect workers. Everyone proclaimed it a socialist paradise for a few years, until they started going downhill. They went from 10% growth booms and -2% busts to 3% growth booms and 0.5% growth busts and their economy stagnated. All the rich people and companies moved out and there was no incentive for innovation. They dropped from 2nd to 30th in 20 years of socialism. They were all happy though, because all the people still in the country did pretty well off ...
    Sweden is a prime example, actually. From the end of the second world war to the 1970's, Sweden was a Libertarian paradise. Globalist, few regulations, lower taxes, an unobtrusive government, and perfect conditions for building companies. Dozens of great Multinational Swedish companies popped up. You got big booms and smaller busts that made Sweden one of the world leaders by the 1970's. But then the workers started to get unhappy, because they weren't sharing in this great economy as much as the rich businessmen, and the busts hurt them most, whilst the rich thought it was unfair that anyone should be poor in such a rich country. So they elected a socialist government which in the 1980's started enacting regulations, high taxes, and flattened out the booms and busts and enacted job security and safety laws to protect workers. Everyone proclaimed it a socialist paradise for a few years, until they started going downhill. They went from 10% growth booms and -2% busts to 3% growth booms and 0.5% growth busts and their economy stagnated. All the rich people and companies moved out and there was no incentive for innovation. They dropped from 2nd to 30th in 20 years of socialism. They were all happy though, because all the people still in the country did pretty well off of it. At least, until the recent global crash. Then Sweden, with its global economy, couldn't withstand the crash in exports and unemployment soared. So they elected a very unusual politician - a crazy conservative with a a ponytail. He reduced taxes on the rich, downsized their safety net, loosened regulations, and tax revenues grew. He cut spending down, kept a healthy surplus, and they paid off their national debt. They're now currently the best performing western country along with Norway. All because they loosened their socialist policies. And they're still doing it.
    (more)
  • gregory... Anonymo... 2012/08/20 01:32:16 (edited)
    gregory.ditzler
    +1
    Personally I would compromise growth for income equality because capitalism relies on slavery for progress for every millionaire there is a million poor people. Sweden has been the best in the world for quality of life and you can't beat that. You see capitalism makes more failures and causes more social ills yes it is high risk high reward and you can make a great deal of money in capitalism but the quality of life goes down. I did a little bit of research and guess what GDP in america matches that in Sweden a 2-4% GDP is normal.
  • Anonymo... gregory... 2012/08/20 02:25:06
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    If you compromise growth for equality, everyone gets dragged down to the level of the lowest. Look at communism. Capitalism doesn't rely on slavery, slavery was abolished because it was impractical. Feudalism relies on slavery. Capitalism relies on innovation and competition. As millionaires are the top 0.1%, that makes 1 millionaire to 999 non millionaires. About 100 of them are poor. An most millionaires earned their money, those that don't are remnants of the feudal system - large corporations buying and holding land to increase prices and getting more profits. That's why we need to replace income and sales taxes with land and luxury goods taxes - they hit the rich more. Actually Norway and Iceland have been the best in Quality of Life... Capitalism creates more opportunities for people. Quality of life doesn't go down, look at the huge increases in quality of life we've had since the industrial revolution - they were created by adoption of capitalism. That is non-comparable, what is comparable is growth in Sweden when it was a free market and when it was socialist. If America were socialist it would have a 0.5% growth rate.
  • gregory... Anonymo... 2012/08/20 03:00:12
    gregory.ditzler
    Well Sweden is only one country that is a mixed economy. Japan is the leader in the tech industry and has an expansive welfare programs. They are on the same level as Sweden and have just as few social problems. You also misrepresent Sweden which has been the innovative center of Europe in the past and their GDP is perfectly normal. All economies have their flaws and previous flaws doesn't mean anything. If you look at the study done by Richard Wilkinson you would know they have the fewest social problems of any country. I have one question for you if we can't have true income equality and innovation then why should we have innovation? The people of Sweden are happy with what they got so why wouldn't we? There is also the binary economic model which could be a solution.
  • Anonymo... gregory... 2012/08/20 09:44:22
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    Welfare is different to government intervention in the economy. The best economies have moderate taxes, high consumer protection, low worker protection, low and simple government regulations, and an expansive social security structure, as giving more people money to spend grows the economy at a much faster rate. We need innovation to grow. If there were no innovation in technology, we wouldn't have Nokia bricks, let alone iPhones. We wouldn't have laptops or 2TB hard drives, we wouldn't have half the medical equipment we have today, we would still be living in the 1800's regarding technology. Innovation is core to a functional society - income equality is not. The people of Sweden and Norway are happy because their incomes are high enough that they can live comfortably, due to their vast amounts of natural resources. They don't need to have a free Market economy because they can pay for their infrastructure and extensive welfare systems with their huge export surplus compared to imports. They are self-sufficient and gain huge revenues from the natural resources and large businesses operating there - note their corporate tax isn't quite so high as income taxes. And because it wouldn't be the same here. They have an efficient, democratic government, amazing infrastruct...
    Welfare is different to government intervention in the economy. The best economies have moderate taxes, high consumer protection, low worker protection, low and simple government regulations, and an expansive social security structure, as giving more people money to spend grows the economy at a much faster rate. We need innovation to grow. If there were no innovation in technology, we wouldn't have Nokia bricks, let alone iPhones. We wouldn't have laptops or 2TB hard drives, we wouldn't have half the medical equipment we have today, we would still be living in the 1800's regarding technology. Innovation is core to a functional society - income equality is not. The people of Sweden and Norway are happy because their incomes are high enough that they can live comfortably, due to their vast amounts of natural resources. They don't need to have a free Market economy because they can pay for their infrastructure and extensive welfare systems with their huge export surplus compared to imports. They are self-sufficient and gain huge revenues from the natural resources and large businesses operating there - note their corporate tax isn't quite so high as income taxes. And because it wouldn't be the same here. They have an efficient, democratic government, amazing infrastructure, huge export surpluses, a balanced budget, and the right mindset for unforced social equality. People want to help others. We have none of those here, so socialism would kill the economy, make everyone poorer, and send the rich and large businesses abroad. The US would sink to 20th on the global charts, you would be owned by china and brazil.
    (more)
  • gregory... Anonymo... 2012/08/20 13:44:58
    gregory.ditzler
    GDP isn't everything it's actually quite flawed and doesn't take into consideration service jobs, resource depletion, and percentage of people employed. The idea that worker's rights are compromised by capitalism and that slavery and sweatshop labor couldn't exist without capitalism means that if you are correct then we depend on crushing poverty for the vast majority of people to have a successful economy. Also you are mistaken if you think people want to help one another. People want to exploit each other for whatever advantage they can get. That is why we have government in the first place because everyone wants to use force or fraud to control others but were not all equally good at it so we punish the people who are good at making people suffer.
  • Anonymo... gregory... 2012/08/20 15:01:14
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    GDP is a good indicator of a country's wealth, however. And GDP per capita provides a good average. That idea is wrong. Capitalism allows people to be socially mobile. I was born to deadbeat teenage parents on low incomes. Capitalism allowed them to get better jobs and provide for their family. Through their and my hard work I will go on to be upper middle class and have a high income, thanks to the virtues of capitalism allowing me to. Under socialism, they would never have had the incentive to work hard, and I wouldn't have the incentive to go on and get a good job. People want to exploit others because society teaches them to. We depend on everyone working hard, and as people are generally greedy, they will work harder for their own benefit than for the benefit of society. Most people don't want to control others, that's a very pessimistic view of people, and it can go the other way - if people are like that, how can you trust a group of powerful politicians who want to control everyone else have power over everything?
  • gregory... Anonymo... 2012/08/20 16:35:44
    gregory.ditzler
    I realize you live in Europe so you never experienced what you preach. If you came to america and lived in conservative states like Mississippi or Alabama you would change your tune. Let's look at my home state of Pennsylvania for example. We had a booming coal industry but the people were abused by the system the coal companies owned everything they ran the stores, the factories, everything and when the people wanted to be treated with dignity they invested in a private army to keep the workers in line and when the workers finally resorted to paramilitary tactics the corporations ran and were never held responsible for their crimes against humanity. If it weren't for England's own welfare system you would be singing a different tune. You would be living in some ghetto taking whatever scraps you could find to survive or join a street gang to survive and inevitably have a long record of crimes you committed. The reason we can trust large groups of people with power but not the private sector is simply because any democratic government needs the will of the people to be on it's side otherwise there would be uprisings.
  • Anonymo... gregory... 2012/08/20 17:26:27
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    Coal is a natural resource, which was clearly monopolised by the company, which the government allowed to take over the town. The reason I am against it is because I see what liberalism has done to my own country. We refuse to balance our budget, pay millions to overseas aid and the EU, oppressive taxes and regulations destroyed our fishing industry, mining industry, manufacturing industry, and soon our farming industry, and they have given the big companies the edge over small ones. If we didn't have such a large welfare state, we wouldn't have so many scroungers. We would get along fine without such a big system, if the government allowed the economy to create jobs and those jobs went to citizens rather than immigrants. My dad was just made redundant a few weeks ago because the company went into liquidation, he has found a new job and will be starting soon. We only needed welfare for a month and you can stay on for years, when it's clear you need at most six months to get back on track, less if the economy's good. It just incentivises having too many children and the moral fibre of the underclass is disgusting. Any government needs the support of the rich and large companies, and that is the truth of the matter. Unless you had direct democracy like in switzerland, the government will work on its own agenda. There won't be any uprisings if the people don't have weapons.
  • gregory... Anonymo... 2012/08/20 17:36:16
    gregory.ditzler
    Wrong again if people don't have weapons they will improvise weapons that is where the Ninja of feudal Japan got their weapons. Morality is subjective so that is not a problem and it seems Europe has it's population growth more or less under control so those are not problems. Can government welfare be abused? Yes it could if it is improperly used to fund companies that don't need it but if that money went to subsidize small business instead the small fish would all of a sudden be able to compete with the big fish that threaten it's bottom line and high taxes make an even playing field where life doesn't. Think of welfare as school, you get as many times to succeed as you wish there is a fair field to play and punishments for disruptions. No one has any unfair advantage over anyone else and you still have winners and losers and no one's drive is negatively affected by it.
  • Anonymo... gregory... 2012/08/20 17:45:34
    Anonymouse BN-0 ~bibbityboo~
    Improvised weapons are nowhere as good as actual ones, we'd be outclassed. Europe does not had population growth under control, in the UK we're bursting at the seams, we can't feed all the people... Morality is partially subjective. That is where the government gets nasty - they tip the playing field in favour of the corporation. Small companies have all but disappeared because they can't compete, apart from small restaurants which are always better than large one's whatever the price. High taxes don't make an equal playing field at all - big companies are able to dodge taxes, whereas small ones can't. Government welfare is often abused. That is nothing like welfare. Welfare is money you've paid into that you can use to get back on track. But in the UK, it's free money for anyone that doesn't have a job.
  • Jackie G - Poker Playing Pa... 2012/08/19 20:54:35
    Objective...
    Jackie G - Poker Playing Patriot
    Unfortunately, they are more than very objective and bend over backwards to try to keep nations in good stead. It is only when nations get really out of control that they lower their ratings.

    Think about Greece - their ratings should have been in the basement years and years ago. One can look at any number of countries and see that the raters have been far to kind.
  • JMCC Jackie ... 2012/08/19 21:01:51
    JMCC
    +2
    Analysis of their projections would appear to show that they are not as objective as you think, and the recommendations from the financial regulators and the report that went with it was very revealing.

    The issue is the "self fulfilling prophecy part" as Country's like Greece started to fail, remedial action was taken, but a change in interest meant that the measures were not enough and started a cycle by which the those setting the budgets were setting their tails.

    Not that this would have necessarily have prevented Greece's failure, yet it complicated the matter more than it needed. and only served to ensure that certain people were paid whilst others took a "haircut"...
  • Jackie ... JMCC 2012/08/19 21:08:01
    Jackie G - Poker Playing Patriot
    Certainly there are all kinds of factors that they weigh - Personally, I think they move far too slowly.
  • JMCC Jackie ... 2012/08/19 21:13:02
    JMCC
    +2
    The biggest problem is that their analyses are based on the assumption "As long as nothing changes" - which in a dynamic and self learning system is a huge problem.

    Even Merv King head of the Bank of England has caught a cropper twice this year with his predictions based on their data.

    "Past performance is no good indication of future behaviour" - a fundamental principle of analysis of complex and dynamic systems.
  • Jackie ... JMCC 2012/08/19 21:17:23
    Jackie G - Poker Playing Patriot
    +1
    And past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior say most psychologists and psychiatrists - I happen to think, as a general principle, it is true of most things or at least that has been my experience.

    No easy answers for this - and they work hard to keep it as complex as possible. What think you? Job security?? LOL

    Later, have a good one
  • AM 2012/08/19 20:51:17
    Undecided
    AM
    +2
    It's not so much the credit rating agencies themselves .More so it's the government issued mandates they are forced to uphold.One has to ask just why it took so long for the down grade in our credit rating while every bundler was running amok.Snicker at "Moody and Poor"....clever.
  • JCD aka "biz" 2012/08/19 20:39:41
    Biased...
    JCD aka "biz"
    +1
    They all keep us "Moody and Poor", I agree.

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