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Keeping It Real 2012/07/24 18:00:46
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Published on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 by Common Dreams








Economists and Workers Both Say: Raise the Minimum Wage


Economists insists it makes good fiscal policy and small business owners rally alongside workers



- Common Dreams staff





Marking the third anniversary since the last national minimum
wage increase, low-paid workers and living-wage advocates across the
country on Tuesday are calling out for a renewed focus on the paltry,
sub-poverty earnings that millions of Americans are expected to get by
on.


Advocates of the increase argue that if the minimum wage had kept up
with inflation since 1968, its historical high point, it would now be
over $10.50 per hour.
Marches and rallies are planned, according to McClatchy,
at congressional district offices and at businesses that pay low wages.
In Chicago, protesters will hold a trolley tour of low-wage employers,
while activists in Pittsburgh will rally for higher wages outside City
Hall. Similar events are planned in dozens of cities, including New
York, Washington, Miami, Kansas City, Mo., Sacramento, Calif., and
Philadelphia.


"We're having this national day of action to get a message to our
elected officials that we are serious about how the minimum wage is not a
livable wage," said Cathy Kaufmann, deputy Ohio director of the Fight
for a Fair Economy, part of SEIU, or the Service Employees International
Union.


At $7.25 an hour, the current minimum wage comes to just $15,080 a
year for full-time work -- a figure still below the official poverty
line.


Recent studies by the Center for Economic and Policy Research shows
that the "minimum wage is now far below its historical level by all of
the most commonly used benchmarks – inflation, average wages, and
productivity."


And Holly Sklar, director of the Business for a Fair Minimum Wage
project, adds that though "worker productivity grew 80 percent from
1973 to 2011" the average worker's wage -- adjusted for inflation --
"fell 7 percent."


In a column highlighting the economic inequality engendered in the
minimum wage and calling for its increase, economist Dean Baker and CEPR
co-director writes: "At the current rate of $7.25 an hour, a full-time
year-round worker would have gross pay of less than $15,000 a year. This
is less than half of what the average Fortune 500 CEO makes in a day.
It would be hard enough for a single person to survive on this income,
imagine trying to support a child or even two on this money."


Advocates of the increase argue
that if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation since 1968, its
historical high point, it would now be over $10.50 per hour. This, they
say, despite the fact that today’s low-wage workers are older and better
educated than in the past. Had the minimum wage also risen in step with
low-wage workers’ age and educational attainment since 1968, it would
even higher in 2012, approaching $11 per hour.


Opponents of minimum wage increases have long argued that such
adjustments impact hiring, but much economic research contradicts such
claims.


"Increases to minimum wage have not produced the loss of jobs in the ways that opponents of these types of proposals predict," said Jeannette Wicks-Lim, an assistant research professor at the University of Massachusetts' Political Economy Research Institute.


Wicks-Lim said the recent research shows minimum wage laws enacted in
the past "have not had a negative impact on workers' job
opportunities."


“Businesses don’t expect the costs of energy, rent, transportation
and other expenses to remain constant, yet some want to keep the minimum
wage the same year after year, despite increases in the cost of
living,” said David Bolotsky, founder and CEO of UncommonGoods and a
member of Business for a Fair Minimum Wage. “That kind of business model
traps workers in poverty and undermines our economy.”


Supporters will lobby for a provision of the Rebuild America Act,
introduced in the Senate this year by Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa),
calling for the federal minimum wage to be increased to $9.80 per hour
by 2014.


In June, Congressmen Jesse Jackson, Jr. (D-Ill.), John Conyers
(D-Mich.), and Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) introduced the “Catching Up
to 1968 Act of 2012” (H.R. 5901) – legislation to raise the federal
minimum wage to $10 per hour.


In the Republican controlled House, the bill has gone nowhere.


* * *


Small business owners made the following statements in
support of Tuesday's action and the call for an increase of the minimum
wage:


David Bolotsky, Founder and CEO of UncommonGoods in Brooklyn, New York,
said, “Businesses don’t expect the costs of energy, rent,
transportation and other expenses to remain constant, yet some want to
keep the minimum wage the same year after year, despite increases in the
cost of living. That kind of business model traps workers in poverty
and undermines our economy. The minimum wage should require that all
businesses pay employees a wage people can live on.”


Camille Moran, Owner of Caramor Industries and Four Seasons Christmas Tree Farm in Natchitoches, Louisiana,
said, “A minimum wage increase is long overdue. It’s not right or smart
for any business to pay a wage that impoverishes not only working men
and women and their families, but also impoverishes our communities and
our nation. Boosting the wages of low-paid workers who could then
purchase the goods and services they need is the best medicine for our
ailing economy.”


Julie Paez, Owner of Big Bad Woof pet supply stores in Hyattsville, Maryland and Washington, DC, said,
“Paying employees a living wage makes good business sense. It helps
keep qualified employees – cutting down on training expenses – and helps
foster company loyalty, which, in turn, produces higher sales and
increases customer retention. It's a win win.”


Lew Prince, Managing Partner of Vintage Vinyl in St. Louis, Missouri, said,
“The evidence that trickle-down economics doesn’t work is all around
us. People are falling out of the middle class instead of rising into
it. Putting money in the hands of people who desperately need it to buy
goods and services will give us a trickle-up effect. Raising the minimum
wage is a really efficient way to circulate money in the economy from
the bottom up where it can have the most impact in alleviating hardship,
boosting demand at businesses and decreasing the strain on our public
safety net from poverty wages.”


Marilyn Megenity, Owner of Mercury Cafe in Denver, Colorado,
said, “We opened our doors in 1975, and I know that raising the minimum
wage is not only affordable to restaurants and other businesses – it’s
crucial for our economy. It's important that all employees be able to
make a decent wage, in order to pay rent and all the other costs of
living. Our government needs to take charge of this now, just as it did
in the past. We cannot continue a minimum wage that keeps even people
who are working full time, year round in poverty.”


Brian England, Co-Owner of British-American Auto Care in Columbia, Maryland,
said, “Have you ever wondered why every time you visit some businesses
the staff has changed? Well chances are it is because they only pay an
inadequate minimum wage. Instead of paying a fair wage, they are
inviting costly constant turnover and unreliable customer service. In
raising the minimum wage, we should be moving people away from just
surviving. We should be moving working Americans as far away from
needing the social safety net as possible. Raising the minimum wage
raises everyone up.”


Jim Wellehan, President of Lamey Wellehan Shoes in Auburn, Maine,
said, “Our family business is nearly a hundred years old, and clearly
our country does better when all believe that their hard work will bring
good results for them and their loved ones. Now, as Bloomberg
BusinessWeek Magazine reports, the USA has higher income inequality and
lower social mobility than most industrialized countries. If you are
born poor, you are quite likely to die poor. Raising the minimum wage is
a step to correcting this worsening situation. And the ability of a
broad segment of our society to have a bit more spending money will
benefit every area of our economy. Our increasingly unequal economic
structure has no long-term viability.”


Joseph Rotella, Owner of Spencer Organ Company in Waltham, Massachusetts,
said, “As a small business owner and an American, I support proposals
to raise the federal minimum wage to at least $9.80 by 2014, because I
strongly support workers being able to earn a living wage. America
should be a country where no one who puts in a fair day's work can't
afford to make ends meet, and no business owner who offers a living wage
has to be undercut by competitors who do not. Not only is increasing
the minimum wage the right and fair thing to do, but it will also help
stimulate our struggling economy by putting more money into the hands of
workers who need to spend it.”

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/07/24-0

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Top Opinion

  • Keeping It Real 2012/07/24 18:07:39
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    Keeping It Real
    +15
    If Congress wanted to make it happen, you know raise the minimum wage they could, but understanding the goal of the right wing is to tank the economy, it's more likely that a unicorn will become a household pet.

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  • ikeknight 2012/10/01 22:36:12
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    ikeknight
    +1
    People who work hard, but are paid below the poverty line is just wrong. There needs to be a living wage.
  • Blade 2012/10/01 21:15:17
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    Blade
  • CHUCK - Liberal in Seattle 2012/08/18 22:15:31
    Undecided
    CHUCK - Liberal in Seattle
    My state, Washingtons' minimum wage is $9.04 ph, Which is way higher than the national, and you still can't survive on that, not even in Mississippi!
  • Mel 2012/07/28 21:16:37
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    Mel
    +2
    Yes it does make sense
  • charles nelson 2012/07/28 19:46:55
    Undecided
    charles nelson
    +1
    Lets just knock it back to something closer to minimum, how about a farthing.
  • ★Calliope★ 2012/07/27 01:53:45
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article don't make sense!
    ★Calliope★
    It never makes sense.

    Feel good nonsense.

    “The minimum wage law is most properly described as a law saying that employers must discriminate against workers who have low skills,” said Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman.

    He was right.

    State Teen Unemployment Minimum Wage
    He was right.
    The Employment Policies Institute has released a new report detailing teen unemployment in the various states for April of 2012. Based on that data, I created the spreadsheet below listing the states from highest teen unemployment to lowest and indicated which states have higher an elevated minimum wage (red for states above the federal minimum, blue for states at or below).
    What the spreadsheet shows is a strong correlation between higher levels of teen unemployment and a higher minimum wage. Of the top 5 states in terms of teen unemployment, four have minimum wages higher than the federal standard. Of the bottom five states for teen unemployment, just one has a minimum wage higher than the federal standard.
    Going further, of the 20 states with the lowest teen unemployment just 4 have a minimum wage above the federal level. Of the top 20 states for teen unemployment, nine have a minimum wage above the federal minimum.
    Obviously, there are a lot of economic factors that go into une...



    It never makes sense.

    Feel good nonsense.

    “The minimum wage law is most properly described as a law saying that employers must discriminate against workers who have low skills,” said Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman.

    He was right.

    State Teen Unemployment Minimum Wage
    He was right.
    The Employment Policies Institute has released a new report detailing teen unemployment in the various states for April of 2012. Based on that data, I created the spreadsheet below listing the states from highest teen unemployment to lowest and indicated which states have higher an elevated minimum wage (red for states above the federal minimum, blue for states at or below).
    What the spreadsheet shows is a strong correlation between higher levels of teen unemployment and a higher minimum wage. Of the top 5 states in terms of teen unemployment, four have minimum wages higher than the federal standard. Of the bottom five states for teen unemployment, just one has a minimum wage higher than the federal standard.
    Going further, of the 20 states with the lowest teen unemployment just 4 have a minimum wage above the federal level. Of the top 20 states for teen unemployment, nine have a minimum wage above the federal minimum.
    Obviously, there are a lot of economic factors that go into unemployment numbers, but the strong relationship between a higher minimum wage and elevated unemployment rates among young and low-skill workers cannot be denied.
    Far from helping entry-level workers, the minimum wage hurts them by acting as a defacto tax on low-wage workers. And anything you tax, you get less of.
    Better more jobs at a lower wage than fewer jobs at a higher wage." http://sayanythingblog.com/en...
    and
    http://www.minimumwage.com/wp...
    (more)
  • ComeOnNow 2012/07/27 01:29:35
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article don't make sense!
    ComeOnNow
    +2
    The problem is that minimum wage jobs are not exactly meant to be a career choice. They are the minimum. They are entry level, low to no skill jobs. If the jobs demanded more pay, then they would get paid more. The real isssue is that when you artificially raise it, businesses are less inclined to hire as many employees. Who this hurts are the teenagers that would utillize these jobs as their first jobs. The ones that build their experience and learn work ethic. Many fast food or other entry level jobs pay more than minimum wage and provide benefits. Someone earning minimum wage, clearly is not trying very hard.
  • CHUCK -... ComeOnNow 2012/08/18 22:18:35
    CHUCK - Liberal in Seattle
    Oh!, there are loads of high paying jobs where you live, what planet are you on?
  • ComeOnNow CHUCK -... 2012/08/20 22:57:02
    ComeOnNow
    Unemployment among skilled people is stil fairly low. Stop doing unskilled entry level work where you can be replaced by a 16 year old or a mule. I know, that requires personal responsibility and giving a crap and that never crosses liberals minds.
  • The Electrician 2012/07/26 22:56:49 (edited)
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    The Electrician
    +3
    I've been in business since 1979 and always paid more than the minimum wage. Congress should try working for a minimum wage. They get paid NO MATTER WHAT !
  • CHUCK -... The Ele... 2012/08/18 22:21:06
    CHUCK - Liberal in Seattle
    +1
    Befor I retired, I owned two restaurants, and never hired anyone, not even the dish washer at minimun wage, and kept them!
  • painted desert 2012/07/26 15:47:32
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    painted desert
    +4
    People can barely live on what they make at the minimum wage paid out now. The people who work in fast food or other minimum wage jobs are luck to have that, but when they have to work 2 or even 3 jobs to feed their families. We need to raise the minimum wage given.
  • jdemme 2012/07/26 04:32:18
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    jdemme
    +3
    Wonderful article, but it could be a lot shorter. How about saying that not one person can live off of minimum wage. That right there is reason enough to raise it. Minimum wage should be at least $15, if not more.

    I love how some people are saying that "prices will go up if you pay people more!" That's simply untrue, well, to a point. The fact that they would rather wait for prices to rise rather than wages to rise says something about them, since the two would be intertwined by their logic. But the only reason prices would increase is if businesses decide that they want more money, which would be ridiculous. If this were 1950, I could see them being concerned about their profits, since they made *only* 50x the amount of a non-owner. However, today CEOs and executives make 500x the amount of profit! So if anything, the WAGES are lagging behind!
  • zcberry 2012/07/26 02:34:27
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    zcberry
    +5
    How do they expect people to live off that?
  • bob h. 2012/07/25 15:52:55
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    bob h.
    +6
    Capitalism is nothing more than keeping money in circulation. We're rapidly going back to corporate serfdom. People are making so little money, they can't make it back to work, much less buy anything that's produced here. The bottom guy in Forbes 400 is still a billionaire.
  • Wonder Woman 2012/07/25 15:10:13
  • Don Leuty 2012/07/25 07:40:12
    Undecided
    Don Leuty
    +1
    Every time the minimum wage goes up, it has always resulted in an increase in unemployment for the ones it is supposed to help, because there is no increase in the value of output commensurate with the increase in costs. The first to go in any austerity program is the least productive, which tend to be the lower end unskilled worker.
  • aneed2know 2012/07/25 07:03:04
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    aneed2know
    +6
    Raising the minimum wage makes sense so you know as long as republicans control the house and as long as the super majority thing in the Senate persist you know it wont happen. See when poor people see rich people, they see themselves and most believe that they to will become a billionaire but sadly the ones who believe this are always the ones who will be happy with the crumbs off the their table.
  • Not Einstein 2012/07/25 04:43:24
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    Not Einstein
    +6
    According to Find the Data, Unbiased Data Driven Comparisons, the average rent in the USA for a two bedroom apartment in the United States is $804 dollars per month.

    With minimum wage at $7.25 per hour, the minimum wage earner grosses $290 per week, or just over $15,000 per year.

    If that person is the sole wage earner and pays $840 per month for housing, they're paying just over $10,000 for rent annually.

    Do they even have that much to spend?

    If married, and they are the sole wage earner, they are paying 10% federal taxes. If single, it jumps to 15%.

    So, lets say they're a single parent and deduct $2062. That leaves them with $13018 in spendable income. But wait, they still have to pay $935 into Social Security.

    That leaves them with $12083. Oh yeah, then there's the Medicare tax of 2.9%, or $437, which leaves them with $11646.

    I almost forgot their state tax. That varies of course, but let's look at MN where I live. Yaaay, the minimum wage earner makes less than $23100, so their state income tax is only 5.35%. That's only an additional $807 deduction. So now we're sitting pretty with an annual net income of $10839.

    NO PROBLEM! This leaves $839 per YEAR, or $69 per month, for UTILITIES, FOOD, CAR OR MASS TRANSIT, GAS, INSURANCE, DAY CARE, CLOTHING, TOOTH...

    According to Find the Data, Unbiased Data Driven Comparisons, the average rent in the USA for a two bedroom apartment in the United States is $804 dollars per month.

    With minimum wage at $7.25 per hour, the minimum wage earner grosses $290 per week, or just over $15,000 per year.

    If that person is the sole wage earner and pays $840 per month for housing, they're paying just over $10,000 for rent annually.

    Do they even have that much to spend?

    If married, and they are the sole wage earner, they are paying 10% federal taxes. If single, it jumps to 15%.

    So, lets say they're a single parent and deduct $2062. That leaves them with $13018 in spendable income. But wait, they still have to pay $935 into Social Security.

    That leaves them with $12083. Oh yeah, then there's the Medicare tax of 2.9%, or $437, which leaves them with $11646.

    I almost forgot their state tax. That varies of course, but let's look at MN where I live. Yaaay, the minimum wage earner makes less than $23100, so their state income tax is only 5.35%. That's only an additional $807 deduction. So now we're sitting pretty with an annual net income of $10839.

    NO PROBLEM! This leaves $839 per YEAR, or $69 per month, for UTILITIES, FOOD, CAR OR MASS TRANSIT, GAS, INSURANCE, DAY CARE, CLOTHING, TOOTHPASTE, TOILET PAPER, SHAMPOO, DEODORANT, DISH SOAP, SCHOOL SUPPLIES, STUDENT LOAN REPAYMENTS, AND MANY OTHER LITTLE INCIDENTALS NEEDED FOR DAY TO DAY LIVING.

    Naaah, I don't see any reason to raise the minimum wage. Why don't these lazy azzes just get a better job?
    (more)
  • Doc 2012/07/25 03:56:10
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article don't make sense!
    Doc
    Let's raise the minimum wage to $100.00 an hour!

    Then everyone will be wealthy, right?
  • Pinball Wizard 2012/07/25 03:49:00
    Undecided
    Pinball Wizard
    I say raise it if everyone, including auto workers accept that pay.
  • ehrhornp 2012/07/25 02:47:04
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    ehrhornp
    +6
    One of the best stimulants available to government. Puts money in the hands of the poor who will then go out and buy it. Mitt would rather just give tax cuts to the rich who will generally just save it.
  • MO.gal 2012/07/25 02:42:57
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    MO.gal
    +5
    Raising the mininum wage makes a lot of sense. Trickle down econimics has never worked. People can not live on minimum wage.
  • Kern 2012/07/25 02:32:09
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    Kern
    +5
    This article shows yet another conservative ideological theory being debunked by reality. Will history or studies conducted by unbiased sources change the conservative's mindset? Hell no. Truth has no place in the conservative world these days.

    If 30 years of total failure by trickle-down economics was unsuccessful in teaching the conservatives how the economy works, how are we to expect them to come to the realization that giving people more money to spend will actually increase economic activity?
  • Sissy Kern 2012/07/25 12:09:47
  • joseph digristina 2012/07/25 01:51:28
  • darlenedoskas1969 2012/07/25 01:39:49
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    darlenedoskas1969
    +5
    even before reading I knew most of these things
  • Heisenberg 2012/07/25 00:47:23 (edited)
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    Heisenberg
    +6
    If it were up to me, they would double the minimum wage. I think it should be about $15 an-hour. Also, I think there should be a law that all CEO's must pay their entry level employees a minimum 1/20 what the CEO makes.
  • umapathy Krishnamurthy 2012/07/25 00:43:48
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    umapathy Krishnamurthy
    +5
    Yes good only
  • Sir Bud 2012/07/25 00:18:49
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    Sir Bud
    +6
    They earn more-they spend more.
  • Dolly 2012/07/25 00:15:18
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    Dolly
  • Proggy 2012/07/24 23:31:16
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    Proggy
    +8
    Most people who make minimum wage don't even work a full time 40 hour work week. Even if they did they'd still only GROSS annually $15,080. Please tell me who that is paying for children to go to school, buying groceries, paying a car note, and/or putting gas in that car, rent/mortgage, utilities, etc... can make it on that? That's why it doesn't surprise me that most republicans who fight against raising it don't even know what the minimum wage is because they're so out of touch with it.

    Anyone against raising the minimum wage should try to live on it for a year.
  • hayesml47 2012/07/24 23:00:44
    Undecided
    hayesml47
    As noble as it sounds having a minimum wage has cost as many people their jobs as it has raised wages!
  • Spizzzo... hayesml47 2012/07/24 23:56:12
    Spizzzo BN-0
    +5
    Sounds like the kind of thing you shouldn't believe without proof, yet you don't provide any. So, I'll provide some proving you wrong:

    http://www.epi.org/publicatio...

    Key quote:

    "The argument that state minimum wages have had a substantially negative effect on a state’s labor market is an extreme repackaging of the perennial claim that minimum wages do more harm than good because they cause many low-wage workers to lose their jobs. While this argument was once more prevalent among economists, recent studies with improved methodologies have reached the opposite conclusion. In general, there is no valid, research-based rationale for believing that state minimum wages cause measurable job losses. Making the extreme case that the job losses are severe enough to show up in a noticeably elevated state unemployment rate is a wild extension of a largely unfounded theory."
  • hayesml47 Spizzzo... 2012/07/25 03:36:02
    hayesml47
    In general the minimum wage causes inflation and makes most everything more expensive for all. Having your pay increased does not do you much good if everything you need to buy costs more! I would prefer to have the government set up scales of lowest paid to highest paid employees within companies and those companies that meet them have their taxes reduced significantly, those that do not have them raised! This would allow companies to pay the lower paid employees more while reducing their highest paid employees ludicrious pay levels and paying less taxes as well. This would allow the company to keep from raising their prices which stops the effect of chasing ones tail for the lower wage peoples.
  • Spizzzo... hayesml47 2012/07/25 14:22:14
    Spizzzo BN-0
    +1
    Once again you spout a highly partisan assertion without proof for it. Indeed, since I offered proof you were wrong, it is now worse, as you've proven you are willing to ignore facts to cling pathetically to your ideological position.

    So, let me boil down to an even more key quote that starts refuting you at your 5th word above (inflation):

    "In general, there is no valid, research-based rationale for believing that state minimum wages cause measurable job losses."

    However, our idea about limiting top salaries is interesting as it IS true (IMHO) that the difference between lowest and highest wages has gotten too high, but I'd like to see some projections of it's effects before deciding about it. I'd also foresee HUGE problems getting it passed, as Republicans (perhaps rightly) would see government dictation of maximum salaries to be extremely liberty-reducing, anti-competitive, anti-capitalistic, socialistic (if not Communistic), and anti-American. Now, it's true they say that about minimum wage, but their ideas are a harder sell on that since we've actually HAD a minimum wage for decades, and there is NO sign that we are in imminent danger of installing a Presidium and Secretariat.
  • Edensasp 2012/07/24 22:36:57
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article makes sense!
    Edensasp
    +5
    but what makes greater sense, (since congress flexed its powers of commerce to attempt to mandate commercial participation with penalty inclusions as evidenced with the Affordable Care Act), is a living wage so that everyone can afford to participate and avoid penalty.
  • KingdomNow 2012/07/24 22:24:53
    Raising the minimum wage based on the substance of the article don't make sense!
    KingdomNow
    +3
    Minimum Wage laws do not work. The are scams that force businesses to demand better, more experienced workers for the money they are forced to pay. In the end, young workers and low-skilled workers lose.



    The Free Market is always right.
  • Proggy KingdomNow 2012/07/24 23:37:33
    Proggy
    +8
    That's what something called "training" is for. Without such regulations the "Free Market" is a farce. Without minimum wage laws we'd have a 3rd world utopia where the majority of people are making 50¢ an hour and can't contribute to the economy because they can't afford to consume. Next you'll say workplace safety regulations and child labor laws don't work either.
  • joseph ... Proggy 2012/07/25 01:42:51

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