Are Wisconsin's Protesters the 'Tea Party for the Left'?

Oh I do like it!

You should think about letting go of that illusion of grandure that you are personally paying someones salary.

They contribute just as much if not more than you do in taxes. These people are right. Wall street fleeced their pensions funds. State Governments like WI who were supposed to be good stewards of the pension funds allowed the pension funds to be invested toxic sub-prime mortgage garbage that went belly up. Now states like WI are claiming broke while giving even more tax-pay dollars to bilionaires as if the bailouts were not enough.

And who are they asking to pay for it, yet again.....these hard working tax-payers who have had their retirements stolen and now being asked to give up their rights.

You have NO clue what I pay in taxes!

And again why did the "Stewards" running the Unions not see or give input into where the money was properly invested?

And again who pays my retirement when my employer steals mine? Hummm?

The argument just does not wash!

I don't care what you pay in taxes. The point is that you can not discount these people simply because their jobs are in the public sector.

And until the day comes when you don't benefit from the work that these people put in, please zip it would you!

Actually, the point is they were not served by their union leaders!

If you don't care why did you try to draw a worthless comparison?

A until the day I am not as much a steward of this government that starts with these three words "WE the People".....I will say whatever I think whenever I choose! Now put some "Zip" in that!

- Actually, the point is they were not served by their union leaders!

Well, if that is your point...... what do you care? You are not in the union and you pay no dues. If they are getting jerked over by their unions leaders isn't it their business to put new leadership in place not yours? And the state has the right at the collective bargining table to ask for concessions to ease the state budgetary concerns.

What gives this Gov. the right to take away the rights of the people to organize and workers the right to have a voice at the table?

Why do you care? What is your vested interest?

The governor has not taken away those rights and it's absurd to suggest such! He is merely limiting the scope of what can be bargained for!

Unions with the open support of the President want even the idea of a private ballot removed from the individual!

On matters such as this I believe I have a right to a private ballot and suggest anything less is a severe breech of a person rights!

You know why I care and why I stand with working people of this country. I stand for workers rights because I know in the private secctor I benefit from what the unions have fought for and are currently fighting for. I don't know about what you do and what your work week is like but I like having a M-F work week with weekends off, or if you dont have astandard work week having days off during the week. I like the idea of being compensated for additonal hours worked above my 40 hours. These are all thing that unions have fought to win for workers rights, that we in the public sector take for granted.

I find it very strange how you describe taking away people's right as merely "limiting scope". How long do you think it will be before your rights as a worker in the private sector are merely "limited in scope"?

Oh please there are and have been laws on the books concerning that for a very long time. You're describing Charles Dickens 19th century England!

Those are not what's even being negotiated here as to violate that is illegal!

One thing in many states and many unions they do not grant is MY right to not have to join one for the trade I have chosen! And in that and in that they want open balloting they are very wrong!

I don't work for a paycheck. I work for commission! I sell manufacturing equipment that provides employment in manufacturing.

- "Those are not what's even being negotiated here as to violate that is illegal!"

Please tell me again why is it illegal again? And who fought to make violations by business punishable uder the law?

And it will still impact you inn the sales industry unless you produce all of the raw materials that go into the manfacturing of the items you sell. What do you think happens when the labor force is debased that works in the industries that produce the products you sell? You should know better than most them middle class is the key to the demand side that makes up your bread and butter.

The products I sell are imported as unions played a major role in what ruined the once great American Machine Tool Industry!

I know all about the raw materials as what I sell is what makes them into a viable end product.

The "Middle Class" is made up by a majority of people who do not belong to a union. Less than 14% of the workforce do.

I watched the unions debase themselves and the result was a major decline in exports and an increase in imports! I am right smack dab in the middle of the raw materials and the machining of them. The US steel industry was a prime example of that! Now it's non-union companies that have revived a smaller more effective version of that industry. Boeing put a factory just north of the border (Vancover Wa.) with Oregon. No income tax in Wa. & now sales tax in Oregon. And still they bitched for more!

Of course there are other factors but the unions are as culpable for the economic decline here as any of the others.

"The products I sell are imported as unions played a major role in what ruined the once great American Machine Tool Industry! "

No Greed is what played a major role in why many of the products you sell are imported.

When businesses realized that in a global economy they could pay 2.00 per day per FTE of labor vs 15.00 per hour per FTE of labor (a living wage in the US) ...... they outsourced.

Very simplistic answer. You're assuming there are not unions in other countries for one. Two, at the same time companies that successfully manufacture in their own countries where a living wage is often higher than here have built manufacturing facilities here and have done well at it. In part because their workforce is non union. Mercedes, Honda and BMW are just some of the companies that have done this. Doosan Infracore (Korean) builds Forklifts in Houston.

Maybe part of the greed was the unions not realizing what needed to be done to remain a competitive workforce in the Global Economy?

Where there is cheap manufacturing labor, no there are not unions. That is why the labor is dirt cheap...

Most workers in manufacturing in Europe are in Unions and there are many trade unions in Japan. Last time I checked Japan, Germany and Italy by % of their overall GDP outrank us in manufacturing and all have trade Unions!

Pick up one single product in your home that was manufactured in Europe and not a trinket that you bought in Europe on vacation and post a pic of it then.....

Sorry Can't pick up my car oh and it's in the garage. Are you aware of who Airbus is? Here is a video of the great American John Travolta touting the European made aircraft. I have yet to see him eclaim the virtues of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.





That A380 Aircraft was built in Toulouse France.

Germany has sold this Tank the Leopard II all over the world. Even to both the Greeks & Turks who don't like each other. Wait I need to make one concession for you. They don't make enough bombs! you see they ran out and we let them borrow some of ours while engaged in Libya recently. Think they will pay us back?

So you are unaware of Volkswagon, BMW, Mercedes, Siemans, SAP software, Arian Aerospace, DMG, DeBeers? Maybe you should look in your drawers for those diamond studs you lost?

How often do you buy a car.... Once every 3-5 years or longer?

How often do you buy commercial aircraft or army tanks?!?!

Your point? Oh and diamond jewelry is sold everyday in this country as are European automobiles. You do realize that Nokia is a Finnish company?

So...now the criteria is something everyday? Isee....when you have no viable point move the target!

Well if we are talking about diamond jewelry that is an entirely new ball of wax. If you want to talk about the inequity of diamond mining and manfacturing there I'd DEFINETLY NO UNION LABOR INVOLVED!

70% of the worlds diamonds are mined from Africa where workers are paid pennies per day for their hard labor. The majority of the rest of the worlds diamonds are mined in Asian nation also for pennies per day in exchange for their hard labor. There are no unions in these countries.

Gold, silver and platinum mines are also predominately located in Africa where laborers have no unions and work for extremely low wages.

The majority of the diamond exports first go through the middle east for cutting and sold to the open market which is where the price mark-up occurs. Then off to Antewerp and corporations like DeBeers that happily make astronomical profits off of natural resources that they paid miners pennies for!

You are all over the place! Your 1st statement was here in the US what products are bought and sold here! I pointed out several! Then you moved on to how often are they bought.

Now I get a lesson on what I already know. And the Jewish Diamond Cutters in the Middle Easy have had a Guild or Union for centuries!

I was never asked which ones were union or not union. I simply said it is so that many European concerns sell product in the USA everyday.

And as a % of total workforce virtually every nation in Europe has a much larger % that do belong to unions!

This current conversation began with your fallacious statement here: "
Last time I checked Japan, Germany and Italy by % of their overall GDP outrank us in manufacturing and all have trade Unions!"

To which I responded:
"Pick up one single product in your home that was manufactured in Europe and not a trinket that you bought in Europe on vacation and post a pic of it then....."

And you responded by saying:
"Are you aware of who Airbus is?.... That A380 Aircraft was built in Toulouse France. Germany has sold this Tank the Leopard II all over the world. "

You totally ignored the question of how in the world are tanks and airplanes products in your home???

I answered your question! My Car! Get it? It IS a product that virtually every adult American use on a daily basis! You don't like the answer...to bad....it's reality!

I think your car generalization is a bit too broad for several reasons.

1. Have you never lived in a major metro city center?!? If so you would not have said virtually every adult American uses their car on a daily basis. I have friends that live in various major cities that don't own or have a need to own a car. Hell I even have friends in their late twenties and early thirties that can't drive because mass transit car & cab service is available 24/7! So no that is not reality for millions of Americans.

2. Here is WSJ breakdown of auto market shares...
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/pub...

Man you are OUT there! Everyone I know has a car!

Look...we are pretty much done here....you really have no viable point to make! I have NO c lue what your litte link is about?

You have a very narrow POV of life. Hopefully one day you will broaden your horizons...

The link is the facts laid out plain and simple since you seem to dispute my point.

What is your point? Lol...the link shows auto sales in the nation are up virtually across the board! This is due to your downtown friends are riding more buses and subways?

My point of view comes from working with manufacturers of all kinds ON-site! Lol....you have 1st hand contact with medical bone screw and hip plant mfgs.? I do! Have you been spec'd and sold modern machine tools to Honda Racing? I have! I have sold engineered systems to solar panel mfg.s and oil well equipment manufacturers. Also have sold to and called on Job Shops who support these industries and more.

From 1995 to 2001 I worked for the largest machine tool builder in the United States! All the above and my view is narrow? Try enlightened!

And I never moved the target. I asked you to name something an everyday product in your household that was manufactured in the US and you named AIRCRAFTS & TANKS for Christmas sakes.... Who really is moving the target???

I use my car everyday! And go READ your thread you never asked what European products I use daily!

And I will rephrase the question since in your definition of household products includes industrial manfacturing equipment, aircraft and the military industrial complex...

Of all of the consumer products you've purchased and have in your home what percentage of them were manufactured in countries that have majority low wage non union labor forces?

Is that more explicit...

I have no clue? Nor do I care! I live in a nation that fosters free competitive markets! I also submit that earlier this evening you were unaware Japan and most of the rest of the world has trade unions!

I see issues with many companies and how they treat their workers which is why I never buy any products from Walmart! At the same time as I said before I do not feel a union is a voting block to be misused to affect others not involved. My feeling is a unions place is to represent it's workers and to affect positive change for them and the industry they serve. My 1st clue that had gone awry was the merging of unions that do not share the same industry to create larger voting blocs.

I am very sure that many products I buy were trucked by Teamsters and if from offshore unloaded by Longshoreman.

How about my jeans? I wear them almost everyday. Made in America by non union American citizen workers. Texas Jeans :) Love them and the price is right too!

How do you know the textile mills in NC where these jeans are manufactured by non union labor?

And have you ever stopped to think where the drywall in closet in your home where you hang your jeans was manufactured?

Texas Jeans is a prime example of a company that is proud to be American. Using American materials and American labor.
I buy American made products both union and non union.
I also prefer to buy local if possible using my state Chamber of Commerce to see if a product is made nearby.

I ask all contractors working on my home to provide proof of citizenship of their employees. If they refuse, next!

I have no drywall, my home is old with plaster walls.

If I can't buy a product made in America I have created a complaint letter and send it to the company president letting them know my feelings about their lack of patriotism and respect for American workers, like Jeffrey Immelt of GE.

Oh and some statistical data to support my point.... The UN reports that China has around 1.79 TRILLION in manfacturing output as of 6 years ago and at the time was set to outpace the number one leading country that had 1.83 TRILLION in manfacturing output.
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/sn...

That country holding the #1 spot 6 years ago.... The United States.

Today (2011 last reporting) the US only leads China in manfacturing output in items like planes, semiconductors and industrial machinery. European countries only have manfacturing outputs in the billions. Japan and India are the only other countries that have manfacturing outputs in the trillions figures.

Last I checked unions don't exist in China, Japan or India.

Unions do exist in Japan! The reason you don't here of them is that they have not been kidnapped by politicians and union leaders for political gain. Instead they concentrate on improving the industries they are involved in.

I work in manufacturing and have worked for companies who make cnc machine tools and trust me the UNs figures are ridiculous and as of today outdated!

As a % of the total GDP the United States is the lowest in manufacturing of any of the countries you sight. Except maybe India which I am not sure of.

Mercedes, BMW, Nissan, Toyota, Honda all manufacture here in the US successfully and there are several others. Doosan Infracore of Korea manufactures forklifts in Houston Texas and owns Bobcat. None of these facilities are union.

You are correct. I misspoke and said Japan did not have labor unions when in fact I meant to say they don't have unions as we do in the US.

A key difference in Japan after WWII their parliament approved and wrote into law a "Bill of Workers Rights". This law codified many of the things workers in the US rely on collective bargaining for.

I submit it is the union leaders in the US that mis-speak daily trying to make the average person think the US is the only nation with trade unions!

Also if you look up the "History of Trade Unions" you will find that according to Wikpedia in fact India & China have trade unions! It actually has a list showing it is hard to find any country that does not have them.

China has one trade union which is run by their communist govt. it is illegal in China to even attempt to create a competing trade union. That is not a union. That is another branch of the govt.

Who cares? Fact: Europe has large unions! They invented them!

Time to move along....you really have no point to make with me! I have sighted over and over points you refuse to admit are correct!

You're not even aware that the vast majority of adults in the US own a car or as a family own at least one.