Are you seriously holding American citizens who exercise their right to free speech responsible for the burning of embassies and the murder of embassy personnel? If I insult your beliefs and you shoot me in the head, am I responsible for my own death?
I believe that Muslims are people like you and I. They may have been indoctrinated in a hateful ideology, but they still have agency and are fully responsible for their acts of terrorism. Nobody made them do this. It was their own ideology and hatred that led to these actions.
I also believe that freedom of speech is far more important than the religious feelings of others. If you don't believe that, you don't deserve to live in a free, secular country. I don't think very highly of Terry Jones, but I fully support his right to voice his opinion and burn any book that he has legally purchased.
PS: Terry Jones didn't set the British embassy on fire when The Life of Brian hit the cinemas, or when Dawkins' book The God Delusion was published. Neither did he try to behead Kevin Smith for his movie Dogma. Think about who you condemn for being close-minded and intolerant, and who you fail to condemn.
Another 9/11... and this time it has links to America's RWNJ's(Terry Jones)...
Contarded Chickenhawk Con Slayer
2012/09/12 11:40:21
Sad day... and why? Because RWNJ's hate Muslims... now we have an embassy on fire and a ambassador dead.
Here's a couple of links if you don't know the details yet...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/news-agencies-us-ambassad...
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/obscure-film-mock...
Now I know that NOT ALL conservative hate Muslims, but those of you that do, there just no words to describe you. Not even the word American... You no longer represent Americans.
Your as bad as the Arab mobs that acted like the worst thing the ever walked the earth. Now you stand side by side with them.
Here ya go RWNJ's... your new messiah Terry Jones.
Here's a couple of links if you don't know the details yet...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/news-agencies-us-ambassad...
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/obscure-film-mock...
Now I know that NOT ALL conservative hate Muslims, but those of you that do, there just no words to describe you. Not even the word American... You no longer represent Americans.
Your as bad as the Arab mobs that acted like the worst thing the ever walked the earth. Now you stand side by side with them.
Here ya go RWNJ's... your new messiah Terry Jones.
The second link also shows no support from the "RWNJs" and Mr Jones states he had nothing to do with the film, yet uses a rumor from "the leader of an Egyptian political party" to indict him.
I guess that good enough for you, huh. How come we don't hear a word from you when Egypt’s Coptic Christian community is being slaughtered? However, as soon as a few Muslims get their turbans in a bunch you blame it on RWNJs instead of them being religious fanatics.
BTW, how come when Muslims go all loony tunes and start killing people you claim we are not respecting their culture, yet when Christians try to put up a manger scene they are being idiots praying to an invisible old man? What about their culture.
The First link is to what happen, the second link shows how the Muslim's took the bait of some Jewish guys film, that was rumored to be screened by Terry last night... Which the Muslim's took as the film's opening. So just by Jones saying(or rumored) he was screening the film set off a malicious cascade of events which got innocent people killed.
And why do I need to post anything about Egypt's Coptic Christian community? You got a keyboard... use it... You think I'm suppose to post up your concerns?
And nobody is dismissing the Muslims here... I think they need to be rounded up as well.
As for your Christmas BS, put up all the manger scene's you want, just do it on private property and leave public lands out of it.
Your brand of culture is yours and your believers, but not everyone in AMERICAN and PAYS tax dollars believes in your cults.
In any event, you do know that was not what the riots were about. You just wanted to post another slam against Pastor Jones even though he had nothing to do with this attack. I do not believe you were gullible enough to buy into the 'video caused it' line when the assaults were on 9/11 & the protesters were chanting "We are all Osama bin Laden". Add to that the viewing of the video even hours after the riots were still only a couple of thousands and the numbers don't add up (new feeds access, web looky-loos, etc.).
As for your war against the 'cults' you should be grateful they are there to pay the taxes because they far outnumber you. The Constitution provides for protection of religious freedoms and the right to practice religion. Therefore, when you oppose Americans in the practice of their Faith you are in violation of the U.S. Constitution. You are interfering with their rights every time you and your ilk hinders religious practice.
As for Separation of Church & State; it is a fantasy codified by judicial activism. A State, District, City, or Parish has ev...
In any event, you do know that was not what the riots were about. You just wanted to post another slam against Pastor Jones even though he had nothing to do with this attack. I do not believe you were gullible enough to buy into the 'video caused it' line when the assaults were on 9/11 & the protesters were chanting "We are all Osama bin Laden". Add to that the viewing of the video even hours after the riots were still only a couple of thousands and the numbers don't add up (new feeds access, web looky-loos, etc.).
As for your war against the 'cults' you should be grateful they are there to pay the taxes because they far outnumber you. The Constitution provides for protection of religious freedoms and the right to practice religion. Therefore, when you oppose Americans in the practice of their Faith you are in violation of the U.S. Constitution. You are interfering with their rights every time you and your ilk hinders religious practice.
As for Separation of Church & State; it is a fantasy codified by judicial activism. A State, District, City, or Parish has every right to display any religious icon they desire until the majority of the populace votes to have it removed. They paid for the Public land so they have every damn right to say what is done with it and not some busy-body from Madison, Wisconsin. Additionally, display of religious icons in federal parks does not establish a religion.
So what you and your Freedom From Religion buddies war has done is made Atheists look like a group of contemptuous children who are more concerned about tearing down religion than just accepting their view that God does not exist.
My post is merely pointing out I thought you were pulling everyones leg by posting this craziness. I gave you more credit than I should have apparently. For instance, you keep claiming I am a Christian when I have told you I am not. I just happen to be an astute observer and your rage sticks out like a sore thumb.
So, you now are equating the publishing of cartoons and videos to beheadings and wholesale slaughter in a modern world. The screening of the clip was on 02 July not Tuesday so making up your own facts just doesn't represent you very well. I suppose those 3 yrs in Saudi have taught you to be very submissive to Islam since you just gave them a pass.
As for me, I don't subscribe to messiahs, prophets, or a bearded Father watching our every move. If you want to blame religion you better look in on your own Progressive history with respect to Stalin, Moa, Pol Pot, and other mass killers.
Finally, there are a lot more than three religions on this blue marble. If you look at the numbers of Atheists your cult comprise a very small percentage of the World's population so by all measure you should get the hell off? Whatever means you choose to do so is up to you.
I don't believe in any of that crap. And although you may believe in the freedom of speech, and you can... but what comes out of western cultures can get a person killed who happens to be living somewhere in Middle Eastern cultures.
Yesterday proved it.
And if your okay with those who create hate for others to use to kill, then your no better then them.
I know you're an Atheist & Atheism has become a cult just as real as any religion. If you guys just kept it to yourself to not believe it would be one thing However, you have developed it into a cause to destroy all religious displays in the US; ergo, you have a invented a cult.
What comes out of Western cultures is less revolting than any of the vitriol projected from the Middle Eastern Nation (and you know it). As much as you continue to cling to this false argument the riots and attacks yesterday were attached to this film clip it is all smoke & mirrors.
No one was killed by this video ~ period. The attack was a well-coordinated and heavily armed assault in Benghazi Libyan was a planned to mark the 9/11 terror attacks on the U.S. If this were a response to a video, how do you explain the heavy weaponry and guerrilla tactics?
Stop buying into the hype and the simplistic religious explanation.
This isn't about religion ~ it's about Power and Submission.
"The ultimate decision about what is accepted as right and wrong will be made not by individual human wisdom but by the disappearance of the groups that have adhered to the 'wrong' beliefs."
~ Friedrich August von Hayek
You and Romney already screwed the pooch on that one, so why buy any of that neo-con BS your trying to peddle? Your grasping Nomad... and YOU know it.
LMAO... have you lived oversea.... Really... have you lived in the middle east? You have no ideal about a culture that's been around about 3500 years more then the US Western culture been in existence.
Until you lived there and seen how the locals deal with their religious, nothing you say has merit...
I once sat in a tent and argue with a radical for 4 hours during our company picnic... He was just as stubborn and clueless about American culture as you seem to be about Arabic culture.
So no... spew all you want..... I've been in the belly of the beast... and I've seen their FEAR, as well as YOUR FEAR.... Your both the same animals, but aren't sharp enough to see it.
So if your butt only sits in a tent in the desert, then you've just like the radical I met on for 4 hours ranting about how bad American and western culture was.
When I was in that tent... smoking the hubblay-bubblay pipe with this radical, no other fellow American would go into the tent... they all stood outside in the heat with the other Arabs too afraid to come in as well.
After 4 hours of debate guess what happened? Unlike you only to pretend you have some conception of logic, I came out of that tent with someone who now appreciates that not everyone from Western cultures are the craze cowboy with guns wanting to kill everyone and make women walk the streets half-naked.
I see you never "learned" how to take a moment and just enjoy the culture of the middle east... It's complicated, but it's not all the hate mongering radicals that you seem to mimic.
Here ya go... seems you need a history lesson....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Paranoia? You really read with your own feelings exposed don't you. I am simply aware of my surroundings. I am a trained observer and take in everything around me and evaluate it on my own terms. You may think the Arabic culture is interesting, that's your opinion. It's my right to hope for better for them.
This was the birthplace of civilization, they introduced many concepts of algebra & trigonometry, they perfected the terrestrial astrolabe, and a number of other achievements. I know their history, yet I see they are now squandering themselves, their sons, & daughters in the name of a prophet dead over 1400 yrs. If all this effort they channeled into prayer was turned to science and art their Nations would bloom again.
You want to superiority because you were in Saudi? How many terror attacks did you experience? As for your tent fantasy it sounds like you were smoking hash not turning any minds. Even i...
Paranoia? You really read with your own feelings exposed don't you. I am simply aware of my surroundings. I am a trained observer and take in everything around me and evaluate it on my own terms. You may think the Arabic culture is interesting, that's your opinion. It's my right to hope for better for them.
This was the birthplace of civilization, they introduced many concepts of algebra & trigonometry, they perfected the terrestrial astrolabe, and a number of other achievements. I know their history, yet I see they are now squandering themselves, their sons, & daughters in the name of a prophet dead over 1400 yrs. If all this effort they channeled into prayer was turned to science and art their Nations would bloom again.
You want to superiority because you were in Saudi? How many terror attacks did you experience? As for your tent fantasy it sounds like you were smoking hash not turning any minds. Even if you believe you won a debate how long do you think that effect lasted?
Wikipedia ~ please fool. Any of my students turning in a paper using that tripe as reference was told to start over with valid sources. You believe we enter an area of operations without knowing its history? Additionally, being a user of Intel I read even deeper and studied the language (although I'm sure my accent was atrocious).
Trained observer? No you're more like a train dog on the prowl, sniff and pissin over every mark, waiting on something to bark at, and nothing more then that.
So you did learn something from the Wiki link, but you're too afraid to admit others outwit you with a stoke on the keyboard.
Attacks? Let's just say I've experienced more attacks in my homeland then I've ever aboard. Something you can't access in that lil warped mind of yours.
And no... we smoked traditional Arab tobaccos soaked in apples and dates, then dried... Very good stuff, you should try some.
"However human, envy is certainly not one of the sources of discontent that a free society can eliminate. It is probably one of the essential conditions for the preservation of such a society that we do not countenance envy, not sanction its demands by camouflaging it as social justice, but treat it, in the words of John Stuart Mill, as 'the most anti-social and evil of all passions.' " Friedrich August von Hayek
Just who the hell do you think you are trying to "correct" what I've seen with my own eyes as well.
See blockhead, it's not just about your POV.
Clueless... absolutely clueless...
If you had contact with any it was moderate at best and you believe they represent the whole. If that where the case we would now have a problem.
I have known many Progressive and Moderate Islamic citizens and they want better, yet they face the same problem as the rest of the World. Speak out and the Radicals will execute them and their families. If they are of the wrong sect, a car bomb goes off in the marketplace. However, you still try to associate well-planned terror attacks to a web video clip.
You don't have a clue as to the real geopolitical situation these terrorist have not only on the US, but their own People. I have tried to debate, yet you continue to make childish retorts. You are just another oblivious poster living in a fantasy world.
Your a fake Nomad...
If you weren't then you'd also see that I have agreed with and confirmed that some of the things you've said have merit... yet you try to interpret my minds eye... Something you can't do.
Trust me... I was warned by Arabs not to go into the tent with the radical... but I did. He was very much like you... stubborn.
And yes Arabs, like people of other cultures which surround the planet want peace and a better life... and yes I know in Arab countries if one speaks out, they speak out at the risk of their own lives, if not their families as well.
We had a saying in Saudi... You can do anything you like... as long as it's behind the veil... mafi mushkila...
BTW... now it's official... As of yesterday the ONE attack in Libya was confirmed as a "terrorist" attack.
But the rest of the riots and violence over there was caused by that stupid arse film.
I see you've been sniffing Napalm again Nomad.
I lived in Al Jubail in 92-95.
Worked for the National Methanol Company.
Here's a few pics...
In 95 things calmed down a bit... So the radicals weren't going around chopping off heads that year. But there were places I still wouldn't go to over there...
So keep laughing, but you can take your tent dreams and sell them to someone who may buy that bs.
Here we go again...
6 billion lives on this planet and you still think you define what everyone is...
Thanks for playing...
You just don't like me calling your bs for what it is.
Burning a book is as bad as murdering a random innocent person? This is the discussion we're having today?
Some day I'd love to see the same anger and vitriol that is spewed against the nutty right used on people that actually murder people.
Priorities.
First let me ask... have you ever lived overseas?
There is little thing called culture... and your culture POV, may not offend you, but when your culture insults other cultures; and they take action in there own own soil, why cry about it?
It's okay... everyone suppose to live life like you...
Yet four people have died because of it. Why can't we start with RWNJ's that spew and insight murderous acts?
Cultural differences as an excuse for random murder of innocent people is sort of a sad argument.
Whats more is that you excuse murder as a cultural difference but you don't want to excuse the cultural difference of someone with a different yet radical political background who didn't kill 4 people.
This all boils down to "Lets use this against people we disagree with rather than focus on the global barbarism that would allow people to kill because they are offended."
I'm pretty sure people in France and England and German and Canada and Japan don't go around mob killing if someone makes fun of Winston Churchill or Pokemon.
You're bias is way too tranparent.
Making judgments from half a brain cell, as usual I see... Nothing new with your warped mindset.
I believe in going after both... if you insight hate; then your just as guilty as those committing the crime.
I bet your one of those neocon chickenhawks... that love in-sighting hate and violence, but never being accountable for the mayhem you create.
Yea.... We know your type... Screaming Fire in a crowded theater, and sitting back laughing as others panic.
No, thats always been a fallacy. Responsible people are responsible for their own actions. Yes, some nut jobs may have pissed off people. But thats it. Once someone goes from pissed off and decides to irrationally act out with violence that goes on the individual who goes violent. It would be different if the person angered went on to attack the person who angered them, then you'd have a Court case. But once you get so frustrated that you kill and destroy randomly, thats on you.
For example, you got personal with me. You implied I was stupid. That could theoretically make me angry if I cared what some shmuck on the internet said. If I got so angered by what you said - if you insighted me with your words - you would not be responsible one bit if I went nuts and killed someone else at random.
Whats funny here is that your own actions are hateful and angry. You treat RWNJs with disdain the same way they treat muslims with disdain. In fact, you're so blinded by that anger that you feel the need to insult and assume that anyone who questions you is on their side, is one of them. So you don't even grasp the hypocricy of your own behavior....
No, thats always been a fallacy. Responsible people are responsible for their own actions. Yes, some nut jobs may have pissed off people. But thats it. Once someone goes from pissed off and decides to irrationally act out with violence that goes on the individual who goes violent. It would be different if the person angered went on to attack the person who angered them, then you'd have a Court case. But once you get so frustrated that you kill and destroy randomly, thats on you.
For example, you got personal with me. You implied I was stupid. That could theoretically make me angry if I cared what some shmuck on the internet said. If I got so angered by what you said - if you insighted me with your words - you would not be responsible one bit if I went nuts and killed someone else at random.
Whats funny here is that your own actions are hateful and angry. You treat RWNJs with disdain the same way they treat muslims with disdain. In fact, you're so blinded by that anger that you feel the need to insult and assume that anyone who questions you is on their side, is one of them. So you don't even grasp the hypocricy of your own behavior. "Contarded Chickenhawk" is no different than some RWNJ using the handle "Mohammed Gaylover" or what not. Its sharp stick you use to poke at a group of people you don't like. And here you are telling me that if you poke a group with a stick you're just as responsible for their actions. So, I guess you should take some tertiary blame for what happened considering you spend so much time pissing RWNJs off that they just couldn't help but mock liberals and muslims and in term Muslims had to kill someone.
You A$$ume that I excused murder because of cultural differences. And I didn't... so maybe you should be more careful about the words you use... or should I play you and point out that I went nuts and picked on some poor RWNJ's because you said I "excused murder"...
So see it plays many ways...
Yet, 4 people are dead, and you and I are very much alive...
So now, me pointing this out makes you upset.... So...
Be upset... kill someone... I'll only feel bad for the one's that died...
And if I caused it, I'll pay the price... and not be a coward and hide behind things like the "Freedom of Speech" and yada, yada, yada...
But maybe... just maybe we can USE that "Freedom of Speech" to be brave enough to call a Spade a Spade by those that USE "Freedom of Speech" to insight violence.
Of course you're free to express people have that right to insight riots, by "Freedom of Speech"...
That's on you.
Again, its very simple. Stating an opinion - even a stupid racist opinion - shouldn't be enough to incite a riot. A film is easy to ignore rationally. A riot "caused" by something someone said in a movie is akin to killing a fly with a bazooka.
I'm holding the RWNJs to the correct level of account by pointing out that they are indeed RWNJs and not worth paying attention to. Making a movie is in no way worth killing 4 people.
That you've wasted so much breath fretting over those RWNJs rather than just stating what they are pointing out how out of sanity the arab response was shows that you have issues, that you have bias and an agenda.
Um so you still think this isn't a problem...
Saudi just banned YouTube downloads of the trailer to stem the tide of passion it created.
Until you've actually lived in the middle east, you just don't know how a culture can get offended when their religion is insulted.
Their culture is immature and wants to get violently offended? Ok, thats fine but thats their problem. Thats on who they are as a society and its their problem.
Routinely we get discussions comparing American culture and facets of our political opinions and we compare them to the rest of the World. "Thre rest of the World does it this way" or "the rest of the world believes this". Every once in awhile it may be ok to start looking at other cultures and their behavior and hold up our own measuring stick.
Bottom line is going insane and attacking completely innocent people isn't even near rational. If this were a situation where the filmmakers were caught in Egypt and held for trial I'd say too bad for the film makers. But as it is they aren't under the jurisdiction of those laws and customs. So tough $hit.
Until you've walked the streets in another culture, I wouldn't be so quick to open hostility(insults upon one's culture) on someone I never had a conscience thought about.
I mean is that what you're advocating? As a means of getting another culture to do what you want just kill as many of their travelers as possible? After 9/11 I guess we shouldn't have invaded Afghanistan. We should have just rounded up 3000 or so random muslims and beheaded them. Then I'm absolutely sure the middle east - since we're behaving by their rules - would say "Oh, I get it. They don't like that. We should stop".
I've never seen anything more insulting than blaming the violent acts of an individual on anyone who isn't the one that actually committed the act.
Sure that's the perfect answer... don't live or work aboard in these countries..
GOT IT...
LMAO.
I do notice that you're tiptoeing around the concept that murdering random innocent people may be a bad thing - something even Obama eventually didn't have a problem tip toeing around.
So, you're clearly excusing it. You're clearly excusing random murder of innocent people as ok because its a "cultural thing". If you can't condemn that as part of the foundation of an argument - when you condemn a video before the actual act of murder - they you can't be taken seriously.
This is why Romney - despite the attempt to claim a "gaffe" - actually climbed a little in the polls last week. Average Americans care more about random murder of innocents then sophmoric videos.
Not to mention its pretty much assumed now that the video itself had little to do with the murder and it was a planned al Queda hit. Which means you're basically serving as useful idiot defense of cold blooded and premeditated murder.
You can keep laughing your ass off, but you just sound like a lone laughing fool.
You who truly are "Christians" need to take note of how such lunatics as Jones endanger your "freedoms", the toleration given you by society to practice your "beliefs". When such
practices begin to threaten the peace of the world then you can anticipate a great backlash
from the sane elements of society that might ensnare all of you and drive the zealots away.
If we silence people like Terry Jones, we also silence rational thinkers like Sam Harris who sharply and irreverently criticize Islam (among other religions). Or a Southpark episode that features Mohammed.
Uncensored reason and the unadulterated truth are just as offensive to Islamic fundamentalists as Quran burnings and movies or cartoons that depict their prophet. Reason and truth are also offensive to people like Terry Jones, but they are not the ones who are burning buildings and killing people. It makes no sense to censor the former because the latter can't play nice with the global community. That's misplaced blame that only leads to further loss of Western freedoms for the fear of terrorism.
Is that okay? By your reasoning, it would seem to be...
One could argue that an immediate violent response to an insult is a rather instinctive reaction, but even that is punished by Western legal systems. People can be expected to bite down their anger, but not the overwhelming fear of imminent death.
And this wasn't an immediate response in the heat of the moment. The time between watching a movie trailer on TV or youTube or listening to a mouth-foaming mullah and driving to the nearby embassy should have given them enough time to cool off.