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American adults educated in the '50s ranked second compared to other countries. In the '90s they ranked 14th. Have any idea of why the drop occurred, or where they rank today?

Murph 65 2011/11/08 21:18:14
Politics
3 votes
27%
0 votes
0%
7 votes
64%
1 vote
9%
Sorry, but I think it's mostly because of gov't-run schools, and because the teachers that have graduated from our colleges in the last 40 years have not had to take the amount of English, writing, history to graduate that they did in the first 50 years of the last century.

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  • renatae 2014/08/08 02:21:43
    I agree and I think it's because....
    renatae
    +1
    Too many "trendy" theories of education which did not focus on the basics eclipsed genuine education. Between the New Math, the Middle School theories of humanist education which focused more on the social atmosphere than on genuine education, and other theories of education which emphasized indoctrination of social mores and the idea that everyone should pass regardless of performance, education was forced into the back seat.
  • Patent1 2012/12/09 03:50:32
    My opinion is this....
    Patent1
    +1
    Other countries realized the benefits of education, and put a lot more emphasis on it. Since every industrialized, modern country other than the US are Socialists, they can operate state schools more efficiently, and uniformly, as opposed to the patchwork of school systems and agendas we have in the US. For instance, in Kansas and some other states, they won't even teach evolution. How can those students compete in a world economy?
  • Murph 65 Patent1 2012/12/10 23:03:48
    Murph 65
    As long as they're learning our history, critical thinking, math, reading, writing, economics, etc, I don't see any problem with their being able to compete.
  • dheydrick Patent1 2014/04/07 21:40:33
    dheydrick
    +2
    "Won't even teach evolution"? That's the reason for America's failed education system; Kansas isn't mentioning that evolved theory that's sketchy at best especially with regards to creating something from nothing and zero evidence of the development of one kind of life from a totally different kind of life? Really? You don't think it might have to do with a huge shift in the traditional family unit emphasis or the fact that everything the federal government touches fails eventually?
  • Contarded Guru Chickenhawk 2012/04/04 19:03:20
  • Murph 65 Contard... 2012/04/04 19:07:00
    Murph 65
    +1
    Did I do a poll? What did I miss? Was I with the majority or the minority on this poll? And am assuming your answer is - "If this will tick off the repubs, it's their fault"? Or are you ticked with the left today and your answer is, "If this will tick off the libs, it's their fault?" Or answer No. 3, "If this ticks off Murph today, it's her fault"? :):):)
  • Contard... Murph 65 2012/04/04 19:09:46
  • Murph 65 Contard... 2012/04/04 19:30:12
    Murph 65
    +1
    I do not have a clue about what poll. But am glad to know you agreed with my conclusion. As you say, we're making progress. My assumption is that I was of course on the side of right, might, fair-handedness, civility and decorum on this poll. :)
  • Contard... Murph 65 2012/04/04 19:34:50
  • Murph 65 Contard... 2012/04/04 19:44:44
    Murph 65
    +1
    Would you believe that I am way, way discombobulated today? I created this one, huh?! Will wonders never cease. I promise to try to get a good night's sleep and have my head actually working tomorrow - cannot, however, promise anything for the rest of today.
  • Contard... Murph 65 2012/04/04 19:45:58
  • Murph 65 Contard... 2012/04/04 19:49:16
    Murph 65
    +1
    You see how completely interesting this subject was to people here on SH? Basically this has been a conversation between you and me. Does this say something about the lack of education in our country or just that I posted a really dull question? And, heck, November is like in my past life....:)
  • Contard... Murph 65 2012/04/04 19:51:44
  • Murph 65 Contard... 2012/04/04 19:57:54
    Murph 65
    +1
    Be careful exploring, it might be catching. EKE!
  • Contard... Murph 65 2012/04/04 19:59:26
  • Murph 65 Contard... 2012/04/04 20:00:36
    Murph 65
    +1
    Aw, I miss Thomas. I think, however, you might need to find one completely made of tinfoil. I'm getting cokier by the minute.
  • Contard... Murph 65 2012/04/04 20:27:06
  • Murph 65 Contard... 2012/04/04 20:29:53
    Murph 65
    +1
    LOL :):):):):)
  • Murph 65 Contard... 2012/04/04 19:07:58
    Murph 65
    Do you have any idea what the edit in the blue box by the x is that I keep getting on these answers I give?
  • Contard... Murph 65 2012/04/04 19:11:06
  • Murph 65 Contard... 2012/04/04 19:31:17
    Murph 65
    +1
    Okay, so if that shows up, there is something in my reply that has been mistyped and it gives me a chance to correct it. Have I got it, oh mighty master?
  • Contard... Murph 65 2012/04/04 19:36:27
  • gnice123 2012/03/02 18:49:26
    My opinion is this....
    gnice123
    +2
    America, starting maybe 30 years ago decided education wasn't a national responsibility and divested of its responsibility to educate. The result, a greatly varied educational standard across this country that now has more to do with political agenda than a sound education that encourages critical thinking, fact interpretation, tolerance and respect.

    Greg P.
  • Murph 65 gnice123 2012/04/04 19:35:39
    Murph 65
    +2
    Tried to give you a rave but it wouldn't take, sorry. Good answer. However, I disagree that education is a national responsibility. I believe it to be the responsibility of each local school board, local schools and their administration and, above all else, the parents. Somewhere along the line education seemed to become less important to all.
    Your statement here, "The result, a greatly varied educational standard across this country that now has more to do with political agenda than a sound education that encourages critical thinking, fact interpretation, tolerance and respect," sure hit the target. Especially the critical thinking bit. Fact interpretation, we need more of that, but a watchful eye on who is deciding the correct interpretation of the facts.
  • gnice123 Murph 65 2012/04/04 20:54:54
    gnice123
    +1
    "...but a watchful eye on who is deciding the correct interpretation of the facts" agreed! and it's because of this that I believe there is a "national" responsiblity. Some standard that we a nation should validate. This is NOT to say I believe in some appointed "Czar" of education, but we do need a national board of elected officials to keep a school board in say, Nowheresville MS, from promoting the idea that "I is...." is proper English (true story btw)

    Greg P.
  • Murph 65 gnice123 2012/04/04 21:04:51
    Murph 65
    +1
    I is? Oh my goodness! If that's the case we may already be lost. I think, however, we have a standard as a nation, somewhere the NEA or whatever fits in there, and it - excuse me - ain't doin' a very good job. I think vouchers, private schools, etc. may be the way to go. Good old competition might work wonders.
  • gnice123 Murph 65 2012/04/05 16:38:18 (edited)
    gnice123
    "Good old competition might work wonders." I'm not so sure, when we look at school systems that excel it's actually NOT competition that's doing it. Check this out:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/na...

    From the article:
    "And while Americans love to talk about competition, Sahlberg points out that nothing makes Finns more uncomfortable. In his book Sahlberg quotes a line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: "Real winners do not compete." It's hard to think of a more un-American idea, but when it comes to education, Finland's success shows that the Finnish attitude might have merits. There are no lists of best schools or teachers in Finland. The main driver of education policy is not competition between teachers and between schools, but cooperation.

    Finally, in Finland, school choice is noticeably not a priority, nor is engaging the private sector at all. Which brings us back to the silence after Sahlberg's comment at the Dwight School that schools like Dwight don't exist in Finland.

    "Here in America," Sahlberg said at the Teachers College, "parents can choose to take their kids to private schools. It's the same idea of a marketplace that applies to, say, shops. Schools are a shop and parents can buy what ever they want. In Finland parents can also choose. But the options are all ...



    "Good old competition might work wonders." I'm not so sure, when we look at school systems that excel it's actually NOT competition that's doing it. Check this out:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/na...

    From the article:
    "And while Americans love to talk about competition, Sahlberg points out that nothing makes Finns more uncomfortable. In his book Sahlberg quotes a line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: "Real winners do not compete." It's hard to think of a more un-American idea, but when it comes to education, Finland's success shows that the Finnish attitude might have merits. There are no lists of best schools or teachers in Finland. The main driver of education policy is not competition between teachers and between schools, but cooperation.

    Finally, in Finland, school choice is noticeably not a priority, nor is engaging the private sector at all. Which brings us back to the silence after Sahlberg's comment at the Dwight School that schools like Dwight don't exist in Finland.

    "Here in America," Sahlberg said at the Teachers College, "parents can choose to take their kids to private schools. It's the same idea of a marketplace that applies to, say, shops. Schools are a shop and parents can buy what ever they want. In Finland parents can also choose. But the options are all the same."

    I think it may behoove us to follow Finland's example and give it an honest shot.

    Greg P.
    (more)
  • Murph 65 gnice123 2012/04/05 23:15:51
    Murph 65
    +1
    Not with the ideological slant we have filling our schools today. Sorry. But interesting article here.
  • HL 2012/02/29 18:32:46
    My opinion is this....
    HL
    +1
    I wouldn't doubt we are around 20 now, I mean look at some of the responses you get here on SH.
  • toni 2012/01/22 15:11:30
    Undecided
    toni
    +1
    There is too little info provided. Did someone in the year 2000 do a study comparing Americans educated in the 50s to people educated in other countries in the 50s and also compare Americans educated in the 90s with people educated in other countries in the 90s. Or did someone in the 50s do a comparison and then someone in the 90s did one. What criteria was used in determining rank. How much education did a subject need to be included in the study.
  • Murph 65 toni 2012/01/23 01:46:36
    Murph 65
    Don't have a clue, except that we should never rank 14th in education, period.
  • sue 2012/01/22 09:38:32
    My opinion is this....
    sue
    I think there are multiple causes. In the 1950s Europe was still pulling itself out after WWII. The kids becoming adults at that time missed years of schooling. The entire African continent was very much behind in education as was much of Latin America and Asia. It didn't take Europe long to get back on its feet, and since the 1950s, much of the rest of the world has improved three-fold in terms of kids in school and adult literacy. There is simply more competition now. It was easy to be second when there weren't many countries with universal education, not to mention electricity and media technology.

    It has become harder to educate kids since the 1950s. Since people move more and schools have gotten bigger, people do not feel accountable for kids in their own communities. People seem to want low taxes even if it means cutting the quality of services. Recently with the attacks on teachers (ironically by some of most overpaid and totally useless government employees -- congress), it is amazing anyone wants to work at a school at all. Classes are bigger, parents are working more and doing less with kids at home (in terms of regular behavior, manners, and general supervision), People expect more of schools, not only in terms of what kids need to participate in the work force, ...
    I think there are multiple causes. In the 1950s Europe was still pulling itself out after WWII. The kids becoming adults at that time missed years of schooling. The entire African continent was very much behind in education as was much of Latin America and Asia. It didn't take Europe long to get back on its feet, and since the 1950s, much of the rest of the world has improved three-fold in terms of kids in school and adult literacy. There is simply more competition now. It was easy to be second when there weren't many countries with universal education, not to mention electricity and media technology.

    It has become harder to educate kids since the 1950s. Since people move more and schools have gotten bigger, people do not feel accountable for kids in their own communities. People seem to want low taxes even if it means cutting the quality of services. Recently with the attacks on teachers (ironically by some of most overpaid and totally useless government employees -- congress), it is amazing anyone wants to work at a school at all. Classes are bigger, parents are working more and doing less with kids at home (in terms of regular behavior, manners, and general supervision), People expect more of schools, not only in terms of what kids need to participate in the work force, but also in terms of skills that parents used to teach them: driving, cooking, basic hygiene. There are even people that want public schools to include prayer instead of teaching religion at home or through their religious institutions. You have parents who side with their kid against the teacher when their kid cheats or fails, and at the same time, teachers have very limited ways of dealing with kids that don't make the grade academically or behaviorally. As parents and as communities, we have absolved ourselves of all responsibility for educating our own children, while at the same time short-changing, and even vilifying those who try to educate our kids for us.
    (more)
  • Giantfan 2011/11/09 21:44:26
    My opinion is this....
    Giantfan
    +1
    We had much less to learn at that time. Math was counting division ,subtraction, and multiplying. History books were much smaller, and science has exploded lately. People today have too much to learn in too little time and it's only going to get worse. We learned at a slower pace, today everything is crammed down their throats. Now that being said todays American students don't study nearly as long in hours or days compared to many other countries. We cut education funding while other countries invest more in education. That's a deadly combination for disaster.
  • Murph 65 Giantfan 2011/11/09 22:05:03
    Murph 65
    +2
    While that may be true, my grandchildren rarely have homework, and when they do, it ain't much. Also, no book reports, themes, papers for history, science, term papers. The work they do turn, no corrections for improper English. My contention is because the teacher probably doesn't write English much better than her 9th graders or juniors. And forget spelling today. They may have more to learn but they aren't going to learn it unless it's assigned and graded. And I'm not much for this we cut education funding bit - we could cut lots from education if we cut from the top, consolidate school districts and get rid of a lot of "management." With what we are spending on education now, our kids should be at the top of the ladder compared to any and all countries. And how have you been Giantfan? Working hard, taking it easy, enjoying football or crying at the outcomes of the games?
  • Giantfan Murph 65 2011/11/10 00:48:51
    Giantfan
    +1
    As for what I've been doing lets take that first. My old high school's football team is in the playoffs. 9-1 so far. A tough 7-6 loss but that's life. Second being a Penn State fan 8-1 I have never been more PO'd at Paterno and the Penn State officials for not stopping that scumbag from hurting those kids. I also saw the video of that scumbag judge from Texas beating his daughter 7 years ago. If I were healthy I'd like to punch the guys lights out and I consider myself nonviolent.
    Now onto education. I grew up in the late 50's to early 70's and I am one of the worlds worst spellers. Everyone is good at some things and bad at others. I can't spell and I can't type well. Now my best 3 subjects were math, english and history. But that was a lifetime ago. I refuse to put all the blame on the teachers. But cutting funding is no help at all. This is an ideological difference between the two of us. Other countries do put in more time and longer school years. Homework, I had an open class at the end of the day and I always did my homework then. As for consolidating schools, our area has. My sons school is made up of 3 school districts as was my old highschool. Most of the schools in our area are consolidations. Maybe we need to focus on what is being taught and how much of it should be taught. Maybe it's better to change our curriculums then a whole system. I hope you're doing well. Hows things down south?
  • Murph 65 Giantfan 2011/11/10 01:23:35
    Murph 65
    +1
    Football first. I too am very unhappy about the mess at Penn State. What a cruddy way to go out after all those years as a winning coach. And the fallout from this thing is going to keep coming I believe. Glad to hear your high school is doing so well and I know you're looking forward to the playoffs. I'm always just happy if I manage to get my work done and hubby fills me in on what I missed that particular Sat or Sun. Texas judge should be gone, no more judging, I agree on that one.
    We do have an ideological difference on the school thing. I don't think the teachers are all wrong or all right. I think the colleges have stopped teaching all that they should and given up some things that used to be required to get an education degree - things are way too specialized maybe.
    As far as funding goes, we are funding bunches and bunches of money now and we are not seeing much in the way of improvement in our ranking in the world. So may be you're right, we need to teach in a different way. Or maybe we need to spend their first three years really pushing them in reading, writing, and good old fashioned arithmetic instead of new math or whatever. And maybe we have gotten away from "encouraging" our children as parents to sit down, turn off the TV, video ...
    Football first. I too am very unhappy about the mess at Penn State. What a cruddy way to go out after all those years as a winning coach. And the fallout from this thing is going to keep coming I believe. Glad to hear your high school is doing so well and I know you're looking forward to the playoffs. I'm always just happy if I manage to get my work done and hubby fills me in on what I missed that particular Sat or Sun. Texas judge should be gone, no more judging, I agree on that one.
    We do have an ideological difference on the school thing. I don't think the teachers are all wrong or all right. I think the colleges have stopped teaching all that they should and given up some things that used to be required to get an education degree - things are way too specialized maybe.
    As far as funding goes, we are funding bunches and bunches of money now and we are not seeing much in the way of improvement in our ranking in the world. So may be you're right, we need to teach in a different way. Or maybe we need to spend their first three years really pushing them in reading, writing, and good old fashioned arithmetic instead of new math or whatever. And maybe we have gotten away from "encouraging" our children as parents to sit down, turn off the TV, video game, whatever and put in the time on the homework or studying because that's way more important than whatever the kid wants to do. You grew up around same time I did. Homework and study was pretty much king around our house - get it done or no fun on the weekend. Grades tank a little - no fun on the weekend, and lots of restriction for goofing off and not applying ourselves. So who knows? Did I like it? Not in the least. But what I did like was when I put in the work and the grades came back A's. I like the feeling of pride I had. And that's probably why today I still feel the same way, and those annoying at the time little things my dad and mom used to say, "Do what you have to do whether you want to or not" - "Get up, get dressed, comb your hair, put on your makeup," whatever, "and you will do better during the day" - or "Now go out and succeed and excel." Funny part was it does work like that, at least for me.
    So I got off on a tangent and the guys laying new duct work are at last about done, now have to go write a really big check and go back to work to make up the stupid money. But will be warm and toasty and cool and comfortable depending. Keep me posted on playoffs.
    (more)
  • Giantfan Murph 65 2011/11/10 20:10:48
    Giantfan
    +1
    I'll keep you posted. The first HS playoff game is tomorrow night and of course it's suppose to be cold and really windy tomorrow. Thank goodness we're a running team this year. See ya' around.
  • Murph 65 Giantfan 2011/11/10 20:25:11
    Murph 65
    +1
    Hope it's a big win and that you have plenty of "coffee" to keep you warm. Let us know outcome.
  • Giantfan Murph 65 2011/11/10 20:28:47
    Giantfan
    +1
    I can't go when it's cold. With my nerve damage I have a really hard time walking when it's cold. My body stiffens up like someone falling through the ice into cold water. I'll just have to read about it in the paper the next day.
  • Murph 65 Giantfan 2011/11/10 22:12:12
    Murph 65
    +1
    Giant, old buddy, that just stinks. I have one at home now with stage 4 cancer in his bones and spine, and a herniated disk in back, so I understand the cold, body being stiff, and not being able to get around - but IT SUCKS LIKE HELL!!! So, get in a comfy chair, grab your coffee, read the paper and then shoot me a line and let me know what the heck happened. And I'm hoping for a win for your side.

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