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A New Year - Lets Have a New Discussion

Thom Payne 2013/01/01 14:45:37

I said I was going to wait until after the holidays were
over to comment on Sandy Hook, so here it goes.
It is long, but please bear with me.





Of course, the public discourse now is on gun control–
should we enact more gun control measures? – should we ban assault weapons
again? There are points on each side and
they make some sense – sometimes nonsense – but they are opinions and in the realm
of public discourse the First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech,
regardless whether or not the speaker actually has any merit.





Speaking of Constitutional Amendments, do you think that
pointing out for the thousandth time that the “the right of the people to keep and bear
arms, shall not be infringed” pertains to “A well regulated militia, being
necessary to the security of a free state
”? That in the 209 years from the time George
Washington banned private gun ownership in certain areas of Pennsylvania during
the Whiskey Rebellion in 1791 to the landmark decision of 2010 that no Supreme
Court ever ruled that Amendment II guaranteed private gun ownership? Probably not…it hasn’t worked the other times….





Anyway back to the merits of arguments I currently see in
the pages of Facebook and other web sites, some are laughable on their
face. Some think that posting armed
guards at each school is the answer, but one question…who is going to pay for
these new security measures, and why is it that the people I see advocating for
this solution are the same ones who want to cut government spending???





The worst has to be arming the students/teachers. Don’t teachers have enough trouble trying to
teach kids the necessary skills of reading, writing and arithmetic? I mean, come on….do you really think that the
answer to gun violence is more guns, especially in the schools? Are you nuts?





Which brings me to my point in this rant. What happened at Sandy Hook was a catastrophe
of epic proportions which happened by combining very effective weaponry with a
person who was clearly insane. We are
talking about documented insanity recognized by multiple people. So, why are we only talking about one aspect
of this tragedy and not the other? Why
are we only talking about gun control?
Why aren’t we talking about how we are treating mental illness in this
country?





The reason is pretty simple…it is the same reason that many
in this country blame the poor for our current economic troubles – they are an
easy target. It is because the insane
don’t have billions to throw at media campaigns or to pay lobbyists or to
contribute to political campaigns. They
don’t write long dissertations to be published in newspapers or make slick
videos to post on YouTube. They don’t
own media outlets – newspapers, radio stations or television networks – or have
well groomed, well spoken and well paid spokespeople like Ann Coulter, Sean
Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Bill O’Reilly, Chris Wallace or Rush Limbaugh.





That is why, when our country started it’s debate in the
late 1970s about the importance of corporate profits and investor returns
versus the value of social programs, the first victim was the funding of mental
health treatment. The result was massive
cuts in mental health programs and the closing of many if not most psychiatric
hospitals. The effect is that we now
have basically the same form of treatment for people like Adam Lanza, Jared
Loughner, James Holmes and Seung-Hui Cho as we do the bored housewife looking
for her Cymbalta refill.





So, how about this, fellow Americans….how about instead of
talking about whether or not those not in a well regulated militia should have
access and the right to own a weapon which can empty a 30-round magazines in 45
seconds (or so) and be reloaded with another in less than five seconds, let’s
talk about the bigger picture – taking care of Americans. All Americans. American people.



Let’s decide that in 2013 we are going to talk about how to
best care for insane Americans, poor Americans, sick Americans, indebted
Americans, unemployed Americans, and working Americans who are paying over half
of their income in taxes. Let’s not
worry about millionaire or billionaire Americans or American corporations for a
while….we have been doing that for over 30 years, and look at where we
are. The truth is that they will take
care of themselves very well without our help.
They have for centuries, and they will continue to do so.





It is Americans taking care of Americans and working
together for the common good while ensuring the rights of the individual which
made this country great. If we want to
continue with our greatness, then THIS is what we must do.





Let’s not just talk about why the dangerously insane have
access to guns, but why they have access to elementary schools. Let’s talk about why with the massive
advances in mental health treatment, these people were not getting the
treatment they needed to keep from being a menace to society and killing people
– and then let’s resolve to do something about it.





Don’t ask how or who is going to pay for it. We are Americans, we can make it happen. If we have enough money to post armed guards
in every classroom, we have enough money to treat the criminally insane.





It is a new year, so let’s have a new discussion. Let’s decide to put Americans first, to
protect our children, to take care of each other and to make this country
great, again.

You!
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Top Opinion

  • ☆astac☆~PWCM 2013/01/01 15:36:07
    ☆astac☆~PWCM
    +52
    Wow, you really do not know much about the 2nd Amendment. And you are right it is a new year, so lets take some real action in protecting our children, the first thing we need to do is get rid of the progressives out of the public school system. The second thing we have to do, is undo the damage that your progressive ideology has caused.

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  • Darnel 2013/01/09 06:25:19
    Darnel
    +1
    (Chuckle) You have more faith in Sodahead folk than I do,.. These guys will be name calling and insulting you for HAVING AN OPINION different from theirs in no time. They don't want to talk,.. they all just want it their way,.. the people who would be willing to have a civil convo w/o calling you names avoid these topics because THEY KNOW that these people are not mature enough to agree to disagree.

    For the record:
    I put America first.
    I want to protect our children.
    Money should not be the issue in regards to Fixing stuff that is broken.
    Gun control and the banning of all guns are two different topics and wanting to control people having WGM's or Automatic assault weapons is not taking all the guns away.

    People are their own worse enemies in regards to imagined slights or curtailings of "freedom".

    Peace.
  • gumybare69 2013/01/04 21:03:44
    gumybare69
    +1
    Very good! People need to take responsibility for their actions. Whether its a vote or life lessons they teach their children.
  • Mike 2013/01/04 16:27:47
    Mike
    Two questions for you. You say "let's talk about the insane " Do you mean in a forum like situation? I'm sure you have seen trials where some mental health experts say a person charged w/murder is sane and another will say he/she is insane. 2) If a person is REALLY insane...no amount of therapy or drugs will make him/her sane again. I would really like to know when these mass murders first started happening. What decade? I see some crazy stuff they have on video games now and the internet is jam packed with lunatic sites on every subject imaginable. Today,you have kids spending the whole day playing video games and are on the computer. Gone are the days when kids want to go OUTSIDE and "play"....sports or whatever.
  • Thom Payne Mike 2013/01/05 10:21:22
    Thom Payne
    Murders have happened throughout history. In the 1947 the Kalashnikov military style rifle was developed, the first of the modern "assault type" weapons. When people say that guns don't kill people, people kill people they are correct, but they fail to acknowledge that guns make killing people so much easier and thus are a much more effective way. Had Adam Lanza taken a machete into Sandy Hook Elementary he might have killed one or more people, but it never would have been 26 - and he didn't even use an assault type rifle.

    Insanity can be cured - perhaps not in all cases, but with the advances in the treatment of mental illness, most can be turned into functioning people who are not a threat to society. The key to whether or not the insanity defense can be utilized is the question, did the person know what he was doing was wrong?

    Anyway, thanks for contributing.
  • Mike Thom Payne 2013/01/05 19:10:27
    Mike
    I totally agree that Lanza would not have been able to kill as many as he did without a gun of some kind. Unfortunately,the cats out of the bag...meaning that there are so many guns out there now that it would be impossible to get them all off the street. If there was a way to start all over again and have it so only law enforcement people had guns...that would be OK with me.

    In your opinion...do you think today's video game world and internet world can influence the behavior of a kid growing up? I guess what I'm asking is can all that make a kid violent who otherwise would not be? I'm talking about a kid who has shown no violent tendencies and no obvious mental health issues.
  • Thom Payne Mike 2013/01/07 08:44:27
    Thom Payne
    Not being a mental health professional, I really don't feel qualified to give much of an opinion. With that being said, I am more concerned about the lack of ramifications to violence in video games. I grew up hunting, so I shot and killed things. I got to hear them cry in pain and watch their blood run and the life drain from them and they never lived again. There were no restarts or do overs. They were dead, I killed them and nothing would ever change that.

    That is something people don't get with video games.
  • Mike Thom Payne 2013/01/08 01:44:46
    Mike
    +1
    You articulated your thoughts very well.We are on the same page. I have never played a video game...I just think the ones that glorify gang violence just make things worse.
  • ken 2013/01/04 14:11:00
    ken
    Funny how you mention billions thrown at media campaigns, paying lobbyists and contributions to political campaigns. You mention long dissertations in newspapers and slick videos posted on Youtube. You mention ownership of newspapers, radio stations and news networks and follow up with only conservative names. You must have missed the billion dollar media blitz against Romney and all the other nominees for the Republican presidential nomination in the previous election. You didn't mind the 756 million dollars Obama spent in 2008. Why is it okay for your agenda and verbotten when these tactics are employed for some issue you're against. Selective censorship or just the regular liberal double standard?

    They can have my guns when they pry them from my cold, dead hands.

    "Guns don't kill killdees, people kill killdees." The Honorable Gov. Ann Richards...May she RIP.
  • Thom Payne ken 2013/01/05 10:23:20
    Thom Payne
    When I discussed that, I mentioned that the mentally ill and the poor didn't have those things, and until the advent of Air America and MSNBC, the liberal viewpoint didn't have them either.
  • SIMPATTYCO 2013/01/04 04:18:11
    SIMPATTYCO
    I DON'T THINK WE YET KNOW WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. TOO MANY WEIRD COINCIDENCES.
  • The Govenor 2013/01/04 01:00:46
  • ken The Gov... 2013/01/04 14:22:17 (edited)
    ken
    +1
    The Marlin 22, a great little squirrel gun, holds 21 rounds and can be fired as fast as you can pull the trigger. I suppose this nice little starter gun will be included in any ban being proposed today.

    Edit: I couldn't find a picture that would post but you probably know the rifle I mean.

    http://cdn2.armslist.com/site...
  • The Gov... ken 2013/01/04 14:44:59
  • Thom Payne ken 2013/01/05 10:24:36
    Thom Payne
    Does it have interchangeable magazines which can be reloaded in five seconds or less?
  • Mike56 2013/01/03 11:33:18
    Mike56
    +4
    "we have enough money to treat the criminally insane" -------- enough money to treat all those who voted 0?
  • Thom Payne Mike56 2013/01/03 13:05:16
    Thom Payne
    Since he got over 50% of the vote (for the second time) I doubt it.

    We probably don't have enough money to treat those who think he was born in Kenya.
  • Mike56 Thom Payne 2013/01/03 13:13:57
    Mike56
    +4
    It doesn't matter where he was born - but if those who voted for him do not care he is a serial liar, hiding any piece of info about his shady past - they are insane.
  • tom Savage 2013/01/02 19:31:04
    tom Savage
    +3
    The reality is that a large majority of Americans agree that regulating the access to weapons like the Bushwacker .223 and similar guns is a good idea. The majority do not believe it can be done without violating ones 2nd amendment rights.

    As a society we have the right to govern ourselves. When the majority acts, and they will, and restricts access to these weapons the law will be tested in the courts for constitutionality. And that is as it should be.

    Nevertheless, other measures are needed to address gun violence in our great country. Changes need to occur so that is not harder to get mental health care than it is to get an Bushwacker .223. We can fix that and we will.

    Our founders had a great deal of disagreement. In fact, they disagreed as much or more so than we do. Democracy is a messy business. As Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947).
  • Thom Payne tom Savage 2013/01/02 21:18:30
    Thom Payne
    +2
    Thank you
  • HOMBRE 2013/01/02 19:30:37
    HOMBRE
    +6
    It's funny you have Obama arming the Mexican cartels and every Muslim in the Middle East yet he's trying to take guns away from law-abiding citizens in America. Do you think it's about controlling the American people trying to put them on the Dem plantation. Next you know they will want to put a chip into your body so you can be tracked by satellite. You think maybe this government is NWO? This government of Obama's is the most corrupt government America has ever had. We still don't know what happened with fast and furious because of Obama's protection of Holden and in Libya the cover up there. Now watch the left Libtards come on and try to sugarcoat this pile of poop that Obama cause. You think? I know they will.
  • Thom Payne HOMBRE 2013/01/02 21:18:53
    Thom Payne
    +3
    You are so full of bovine fecal material your eyes are brown.
  • HOMBRE Thom Payne 2013/01/02 21:23:18
  • Thom Payne HOMBRE 2013/01/02 23:15:39
  • Old Salt 2013/01/02 19:21:54
  • Thom Payne Old Salt 2013/01/02 21:19:51
    Thom Payne
    +2
    You are confused. The gun dealers in AZ were supplying those weapons long before 'Fast and Furious' or it wouldn't have worked.
  • Old Salt Thom Payne 2013/01/02 23:09:38
  • Thom Payne Old Salt 2013/01/02 23:18:02
    Thom Payne
    +1
    Look, the lax gun laws in AZ made it possible for Mexican drug cartels to buy semi-automatic assault weapons in large quantities from less than morally upstanding gun dealers for a long time. That is why the programs under both Bush and Obama were so effective.
  • Old Salt Thom Payne 2013/01/03 19:41:31
  • Rodney Old Salt 2013/01/03 21:14:12
    Rodney
    +5
    Well, I tried, let's see if he will believe the LA Times?
  • Thom Payne Old Salt 2013/01/03 23:34:54
    Thom Payne
    You are way off base...I am not trying to link Obama and Bush. I am saying that lax AZ gun laws allowed the wholesale transfer of guns to Mexico before either were trying to run stings, or they wouldn't have worked.
  • Old Salt Thom Payne 2013/01/03 23:45:29
  • Rodney Thom Payne 2013/01/03 21:13:41
    Rodney
    +6
    Oh LORD are you naive. Do you ever read or research anything before taking the pablum your propaganda masters tell you to believe?

    Reporting from Glendale and Rio Rico, Ariz. — In the fall of 2009, ATF agents installed a secret phone line and hidden cameras in a ceiling panel and wall at Andre Howard's Lone Wolf gun store. They gave him one basic instruction: Sell guns to every illegal purchaser who walks through the door.

    For 15 months, Howard did as he was told. To customers with phony IDs or wads of cash he normally would have turned away, he sold pistols, rifles and semiautomatics. He was assured by the ATF that they would follow the guns, and that the surveillance would lead the agents to the violent Mexican drug cartels on the Southwest border.

    When Howard heard nothing about any arrests, he questioned the agents. Keep selling, they told him. So hundreds of thousands of dollars more in weapons, including .50-caliber sniper rifles, walked out of the front door of his store in a Glendale, Ariz., strip mall.

    He was making a lot of money. But he also feared somebody was going to get hurt.

    "Every passing week, I worried about something like that," he said. "I felt horrible and sick."

    Late in the night on Dec. 14, in a canyon west of Rio Rico, Ariz., Border Patrol agents came across...
    Oh LORD are you naive. Do you ever read or research anything before taking the pablum your propaganda masters tell you to believe?

    Reporting from Glendale and Rio Rico, Ariz. — In the fall of 2009, ATF agents installed a secret phone line and hidden cameras in a ceiling panel and wall at Andre Howard's Lone Wolf gun store. They gave him one basic instruction: Sell guns to every illegal purchaser who walks through the door.

    For 15 months, Howard did as he was told. To customers with phony IDs or wads of cash he normally would have turned away, he sold pistols, rifles and semiautomatics. He was assured by the ATF that they would follow the guns, and that the surveillance would lead the agents to the violent Mexican drug cartels on the Southwest border.

    When Howard heard nothing about any arrests, he questioned the agents. Keep selling, they told him. So hundreds of thousands of dollars more in weapons, including .50-caliber sniper rifles, walked out of the front door of his store in a Glendale, Ariz., strip mall.

    He was making a lot of money. But he also feared somebody was going to get hurt.

    "Every passing week, I worried about something like that," he said. "I felt horrible and sick."

    Late in the night on Dec. 14, in a canyon west of Rio Rico, Ariz., Border Patrol agents came across Mexican bandits preying on illegal immigrants.
    http://articles.latimes.com/2...
    (more)
  • Old Salt Rodney 2013/01/03 21:26:24
  • Rodney Old Salt 2013/01/03 21:56:23
    Rodney
    +4
    LOL, yes, we all know Ed Schitz never lies. hahaha
  • Old Salt Rodney 2013/01/03 23:46:06
  • Thom Payne Rodney 2013/01/03 23:36:26
    Thom Payne
    WTF? I am not defending Fast and Furious, or saying anything about it except the reason it and others like it, regardless of who ran them, were only effective because the lax AZ gun laws had allowed it to happen in the past so no one was aware it was a sting of any kind.
  • texasred Thom Payne 2013/01/04 00:47:15
    texasred
    +2
    You don't know anything about AZ gun laws and how they are enforced. So stop spouting information that you nothing about.
  • Rodney Thom Payne 2013/01/04 02:00:45
    Rodney
    +3
    It was NOT due to any "Lax Gun Laws" in Arizona, but it WAS the AFT who used their power and position to bully dealers into making those sales. They arranged to have the FEDERALLY mandated background checks derailed for the sales they wanted made. THAT right there should be just cause to bring the agents who created and arranged the whole operation to be brought up on charges and put where they belong. Instead, we have to put up with simple minded fools who think they have to throw blame in every direction but the RIGHT direction. Just like the recent mass shootings, if a mechanic works on your car and does a bad job, do you go after his wrenches or HIM?
  • Andy Fl... Rodney 2013/01/04 04:47:49 (edited)
    Andy Fletcher
    +1
    " if a mechanic works on your car and does a bad job, do you go after his wrenches or HIM?"

    I.............freaking.......... this analogy. PERFECT!

    It won't let me say I love it. Is love a bad word now?
  • Rodney Andy Fl... 2013/01/04 06:01:12
    Rodney
    +1
    LOL, glad you like it.
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