Question Religion
Christians: Predestination or free will?
shirkie - "In CHRIST I trust!" March 09, 2008 21:58:10
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"For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Ephesians 1:4-6)
What say you-- Do you belong to God because He chose you (predestination), or do you belong to God because you chose Him?
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Ephesians 1:4-6)
What say you-- Do you belong to God because He chose you (predestination), or do you belong to God because you chose Him?
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I'm not sure...
It's actually a combination of the two. God is omniscient (all-knowing) and omnipotent (all-powerful), so He knew before time began everything about me, including whether or not I would choose to follow Him. Even though He is powerful enough to force me to follow Him, He gave me the free will whether or not I would do so. I'm not vain enough to think that I am saved by my own works (my choice to follow God). I know that it was only by His grace that I was even given the option. But I'm also not going to blame God for my own choices. Yes, He is all-powerful and all-knowing, but we ultimately must make our own choices.View thread
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I'm not sure...
Who you are and what you go through dictates every choice you will make in your life, right? And who you are is dependent on three things, your mind, your soul, and either the Holy spirit or Satan, depending on weather or not you are a Christian. God created your physical mind, and put each atom specifically in place. He understood what each atom's effects would be when he put them in place. God is the Holy spirit, and he created both our souls and Satan, giving him complete understanding of all three.
These three things combined decide what your choices will be.
My theory is that by creating everything and setting it in motion with a knowledge of what it would do and affect, he decided what that creation would do. It is like if you created a robot with a computer mind and set up a system of code to make it do and think a certain thing. If you understood the code when you created it, then you decided what it would do.
This leads many people to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what they do. This is not only dangerous, but false. Just because God created you t...
Who you are and what you go through dictates every choice you will make in your life, right? And who you are is dependent on three things, your mind, your soul, and either the Holy spirit or Satan, depending on weather or not you are a Christian. God created your physical mind, and put each atom specifically in place. He understood what each atom's effects would be when he put them in place. God is the Holy spirit, and he created both our souls and Satan, giving him complete understanding of all three.
These three things combined decide what your choices will be.
My theory is that by creating everything and setting it in motion with a knowledge of what it would do and affect, he decided what that creation would do. It is like if you created a robot with a computer mind and set up a system of code to make it do and think a certain thing. If you understood the code when you created it, then you decided what it would do.
This leads many people to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what they do. This is not only dangerous, but false. Just because God created you to do something, It is no less your choice. God did not take over your brain and make you do something out of character last time you made a decision, and why would he need to? Your choices are still entirely based on who you are and will have the same consequences. If you told the robot you created to kill people as long as it can, Just because you told it to does not mean that robot did not kill someone. Also, that robot must be destroyed or somehow prevented from killing people even though it was made to decide to kill people.
If anyone has any questions or arguments about or against this, please voice them and I will respond as best I can. God bless you all.
Predestination (God chose me!)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Free will (I chose God!)
I'm not sure...
I'm not sure...
Free will (I chose God!)
Moses, Joseph in Egypt, King David, and others are good arguments for predestination; However, Esther and the Lord show good argument for 'free will' :
Mordacai told Esther that if she did not reveal the truth God would call another.
Jesus told Judas of Iscariot to 'choose' 'do what you do quickly'. , and to 'Peter, satan has asked to sift you...'
In mine own life, I have seen situations where my will is and was in charge; likewise, I can see situations wherein if I had stayed quiet, my judgement of nonaction would have been greater.
Free will (I chose God!)
I'm not sure...
I'm not sure...
Free will (I chose God!)
freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
Predestination:
the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation
I'm not sure...
I'm not sure...
Free will (I chose God!)
Read what Paul has to say:
"Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."" (Romans 9:10-13)
Before they were born... Much as He chooses us in election before we are born. But what about those who aren't chosen? Paul goes on to say:
"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For He says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth." There...
Read what Paul has to say:
"Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."" (Romans 9:10-13)
Before they were born... Much as He chooses us in election before we are born. But what about those who aren't chosen? Paul goes on to say:
"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For He says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists His will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath—prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As He says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'My people' who are not My people;
and I will call her 'My loved one' who is not My loved one," and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not My people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' " (Romans 9:14-26)
But I am convinced that Kant was right when he said that enlightenment brings us away from this immatureness (don't know if this is the right word, but my english is far from being perfect), that there is this invisible almighty hand that destroys part of Lissabon in an earthquake.
So, I do not like if there is something which choses me without any influence from my side. I believe firmly that future is undetermined and that we have a lot of self-responsibility to live a good life, that pleases God.
Predestination (God chose me!)
Some like to imagine the act of salvation as a drowning man struggling in the middle of the ocean. God throws him a lifesaver, and it's up to the man to decide whether or not he wants to accept it.
However, it might be more accurate to take that image... And posit that the man has already drowned. He's dead in the water. God takes him from the water and gives him CPR-- no choice on behalf of the man. God saves him because He wants to save him.
I think this seems valid. After all, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, Lazarus was not given a choice about whether he wanted to be raised or not-- Jesus called his name, and he arose. I think that's the way we all are... Spiritually dead until God quickens our hearts and enables us to "choose" Him.
What do you all think?
I agree that Lazarus would not had, nor did he because of their friendship and the wonder of worship; however, the challenge is still an interesting question.
[I am a fellow student and teacher by faith]
"...the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing..." Eccelsiastes 9:5