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Christians: Predestination or free will?

shirkie - "In CHRIST I trust!" March 09, 2008 21:58:10

"For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Ephesians 1:4-6)

What say you-- Do you belong to God because He chose you (predestination), or do you belong to God because you chose Him?
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  • +3 raves PolyTicks March 13, 2008 15:44:57
    PolyTicks

    I'm not sure...

    It's actually a combination of the two. God is omniscient (all-knowing) and omnipotent (all-powerful), so He knew before time began everything about me, including whether or not I would choose to follow Him. Even though He is powerful enough to force me to follow Him, He gave me the free will whether or not I would do so. I'm not vain enough to think that I am saved by my own works (my choice to follow God). I know that it was only by His grace that I was even given the option. But I'm also not going to blame God for my own choices. Yes, He is all-powerful and all-knowing, but we ultimately must make our own choices.
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  • Sup-4a October 18, 2009 23:08:23
    Sup-4a

    I'm not sure...

    I completely disagree with either extreme. I am looking at this from a religious perspective, and operating under certain assumptions. !. God knows everything. 2. God created everything specifically and in detail.

    Who you are and what you go through dictates every choice you will make in your life, right? And who you are is dependent on three things, your mind, your soul, and either the Holy spirit or Satan, depending on weather or not you are a Christian. God created your physical mind, and put each atom specifically in place. He understood what each atom's effects would be when he put them in place. God is the Holy spirit, and he created both our souls and Satan, giving him complete understanding of all three.

    These three things combined decide what your choices will be.
    My theory is that by creating everything and setting it in motion with a knowledge of what it would do and affect, he decided what that creation would do. It is like if you created a robot with a computer mind and set up a system of code to make it do and think a certain thing. If you understood the code when you created it, then you decided what it would do.

    This leads many people to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what they do. This is not only dangerous, but false. Just because God created you t...

    I completely disagree with either extreme. I am looking at this from a religious perspective, and operating under certain assumptions. !. God knows everything. 2. God created everything specifically and in detail.

    Who you are and what you go through dictates every choice you will make in your life, right? And who you are is dependent on three things, your mind, your soul, and either the Holy spirit or Satan, depending on weather or not you are a Christian. God created your physical mind, and put each atom specifically in place. He understood what each atom's effects would be when he put them in place. God is the Holy spirit, and he created both our souls and Satan, giving him complete understanding of all three.

    These three things combined decide what your choices will be.
    My theory is that by creating everything and setting it in motion with a knowledge of what it would do and affect, he decided what that creation would do. It is like if you created a robot with a computer mind and set up a system of code to make it do and think a certain thing. If you understood the code when you created it, then you decided what it would do.

    This leads many people to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what they do. This is not only dangerous, but false. Just because God created you to do something, It is no less your choice. God did not take over your brain and make you do something out of character last time you made a decision, and why would he need to? Your choices are still entirely based on who you are and will have the same consequences. If you told the robot you created to kill people as long as it can, Just because you told it to does not mean that robot did not kill someone. Also, that robot must be destroyed or somehow prevented from killing people even though it was made to decide to kill people.

    If anyone has any questions or arguments about or against this, please voice them and I will respond as best I can. God bless you all.
    (more)
  • +2 raves
    jesusfreakrkg April 16, 2009 16:47:53
    jesusfreakrkg

    Predestination (God chose me!)

    Eph 1:3-6

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
  • +1 raves
    shirkie... jesusfr... May 24, 2009 15:31:20
    shirkie -
    Agreed!
  • MSME March 18, 2009 23:29:13
    MSME

    Free will (I chose God!)

    We are all born of God. We are all God's children. We can be re-born through the love and salvation of his son Jesus Christ. To accept Christ is a free will choosing. When you are raised in a Christian home, and are raised to fear God, to love God, to live by the 10 Commandments, 9 times out of 10 you will follow Christ. It begins in the home, from birth till death. God loves us all. And wants all his children to live in harmony and love.
  • +1 raves
    tg March 18, 2008 06:20:26
    tg

    I'm not sure...

    both not available to select. God foreknew who would exercise free will and receive Him and predestined those whom He called and answered yes to receive the gift of salvation
  • +3 raves
    PolyTicks March 13, 2008 15:44:57
    PolyTicks

    I'm not sure...

    It's actually a combination of the two. God is omniscient (all-knowing) and omnipotent (all-powerful), so He knew before time began everything about me, including whether or not I would choose to follow Him. Even though He is powerful enough to force me to follow Him, He gave me the free will whether or not I would do so. I'm not vain enough to think that I am saved by my own works (my choice to follow God). I know that it was only by His grace that I was even given the option. But I'm also not going to blame God for my own choices. Yes, He is all-powerful and all-knowing, but we ultimately must make our own choices.
  • +2 raves
    Jwalden --- Constitution Party March 13, 2008 08:58:42
    Jwalden --- Constitution Party

    Free will (I chose God!)

    'predestined to be conformed' is not 'predetermined', however, I am aware that in some, God has called a 'greater' accountability. Therein, the predestination debate does have a bite.
    Moses, Joseph in Egypt, King David, and others are good arguments for predestination; However, Esther and the Lord show good argument for 'free will' :
    Mordacai told Esther that if she did not reveal the truth God would call another.
    Jesus told Judas of Iscariot to 'choose' 'do what you do quickly'. , and to 'Peter, satan has asked to sift you...'
    In mine own life, I have seen situations where my will is and was in charge; likewise, I can see situations wherein if I had stayed quiet, my judgement of nonaction would have been greater.
  • shirkie... Jwalden... March 13, 2008 16:30:14
    shirkie -
    Very good points!
  • +3 raves
    Republic of Honor March 10, 2008 08:02:41
    Republic of Honor

    Free will (I chose God!)

    Yes he chose us from the womb, but we still had to make the choice to accept his free gift of salvation. If we were predestined to be his then why not make a bunch of robots in the garden of eden. Because he wanted us to freely choose him and Love and Pursue him as our Father, as he continually pursues us.
  • ZombiPhill In Ares We Trust March 10, 2008 04:32:28
    ZombiPhill In Ares We Trust

    I'm not sure...

    Because if God chose me, he would have made me a Christian to believe in him and love him as the omnipresent being he "is." And I would never choose God because he doesn't exist.
  • shirkie... ZombiPh... March 10, 2008 04:52:47
    shirkie -
    Psst-- that's why I said this poll is for Christians. I don't expect non-Christians to understand a debate about predestination vs. free will since they don't believe in God.
  • ZombiPh... shirkie... March 10, 2008 05:00:15
    ZombiPhill In Ares We Trust
    Well, by being a non-Christian that means that God obviously doesn't choose a lot of people. And in that sense, why ask a question of if god choose you believe in him when he can just pick and choose by himself? What makes one better over the other? You both end up in the same place and believe in the same thing.
  • +3 raves
    whatever March 10, 2008 01:16:29 (edited)
    whatever

    I'm not sure...

    God chose me and was happy when I accepted him
  • +1 raves
    kmay March 09, 2008 23:27:39 (edited)
    kmay

    Free will (I chose God!)

    Free will: Absolutely!
    freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

    Predestination:
    the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation
  • shirkie... kmay March 09, 2008 23:46:50
    shirkie -
    So you believe man's will trumps God's will? What do you think of the Scripture verses I quoted below (read a few posts down) about election and God choosing to make some vessels of glory and some vessels of wrath? Just curious! (Uprave for you as well)
  • +2 raves
    racemonkey (oag) March 09, 2008 22:52:50
    racemonkey (oag)

    I'm not sure...

    Free destination
  • +1 raves
    Katy March 09, 2008 22:07:21
    Katy

    I'm not sure...

    I don't know. I did choose to be a Christian, but I think God may have choose for me to choose that...who knows.
  • +1 raves
    Smi March 09, 2008 22:06:06
    Smi

    Free will (I chose God!)

    The problem I have with predestination is that it can be used in a negative way towards others.
  • +1 raves
    shirkie... Smi March 09, 2008 22:09:50
    shirkie -
    This is very true... Someone might be all "God chose ME and He didn't choose YOU!" However, we have to keep in mind that Scripture is VERY-- and I mean VERY-- clear that God chooses people for certain things based NOT on their merits, or the stuff they've done, but based purely on His grace and goodness. As He says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." No room for self-righteousness in the face of such words, in my opinion.
  • +1 raves
    Smi shirkie... March 09, 2008 22:19:09
    Smi
    This is exactly what I meant! I am not sure, if everyone who believes in predestination sees it in the way you do. I often encountered people who thought that they are happy and successful, because they were chosen by God and that less successful people are less successful, because their faith was not strong enough. And this is not how I understood the Christian way of thinking.
  • +1 raves
    shirkie... Smi March 09, 2008 22:23:33
    shirkie -
    Well, as far as I can tell, we are chosen to be part of the elect... But that has nothing whatsoever to do with how successful or wealthy you are on Earth. I mean, look at poor Job! Was he so unsuccessful because of lack of faith? Or that his faith wasn't strong enough? Plus, look at poor Lazarus in the Rich Man and Lazarus story... He certainly wasn't successful by worldly standards, yet it is he who rests in Abraham's bosom, not his rich counterpart.
  • +1 raves
    Smi shirkie... March 09, 2008 22:30:52
    Smi
    But if this is so I have a problem with the arbitrariness. Why is someone chosen and someone not? Job is actually a good example.
  • +2 raves
    shirkie... Smi March 09, 2008 22:41:34
    shirkie -
    Ah HA! Now you're getting to the interesting part. Why are some chosen and others not? Well, and this is the part that rankles people, because our society (well, except for Welfare) teaches us you have to earn what you get, right?... The Bible says God chooses whom He chooses, not based on what we've done, but purely by His pleasure.

    Read what Paul has to say:
    "Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."" (Romans 9:10-13)

    Before they were born... Much as He chooses us in election before we are born. But what about those who aren't chosen? Paul goes on to say:
    "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For He says to Moses,
    "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth." There...








    Ah HA! Now you're getting to the interesting part. Why are some chosen and others not? Well, and this is the part that rankles people, because our society (well, except for Welfare) teaches us you have to earn what you get, right?... The Bible says God chooses whom He chooses, not based on what we've done, but purely by His pleasure.

    Read what Paul has to say:
    "Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."" (Romans 9:10-13)

    Before they were born... Much as He chooses us in election before we are born. But what about those who aren't chosen? Paul goes on to say:
    "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For He says to Moses,
    "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

    One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists His will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

    What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath—prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As He says in Hosea:
    "I will call them 'My people' who are not My people;
    and I will call her 'My loved one' who is not My loved one," and,
    "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
    'You are not My people,'
    they will be called 'sons of the living God.' " (Romans 9:14-26)
    (more)
  • +1 raves
    Smi shirkie... March 09, 2008 22:59:20
    Smi
    I agree that it is not right that we are taught that we have to earn what we get, since in our world not everybody has the same opportunities and chances, which is man-made however.
    But I am convinced that Kant was right when he said that enlightenment brings us away from this immatureness (don't know if this is the right word, but my english is far from being perfect), that there is this invisible almighty hand that destroys part of Lissabon in an earthquake.
    So, I do not like if there is something which choses me without any influence from my side. I believe firmly that future is undetermined and that we have a lot of self-responsibility to live a good life, that pleases God.
  • shirkie... Smi March 09, 2008 23:45:45
    shirkie -
    Do you have any Scripture that supports your view? How do you respond to the verses I've provided that indicate choice on God's part rather than man's?
  • Smi shirkie... March 09, 2008 23:56:24
    Smi
    Maybe there are Scriptures maybe not. Anyhow you can always interprete it in various ways. Sorry for being so honest, but the bible is a book written by many different people and therefore it is not consistent. I do not have to base my arguments on scriptures since they are just what I personally believe and for me free will is important and for me God is not an intervening, decision-making entity.
  • shirkie... Smi March 09, 2008 23:57:37
    shirkie -
    OK, that's fair enough, but to debate within the context of Christianity, the only source is the Bible.
  • Smi shirkie... March 10, 2008 00:03:33
    Smi
    With this I totally disagree. What you said about predestination is very much based on things Christians like Augustinus said and wrote. And there is much influence of greek philosophy in what they said.
  • +2 raves
    shirkie... Smi March 10, 2008 00:11:47
    shirkie -
    I'm not going by Augustine. I've only read one of his works. I'm going straight from the verses I quoted, which include concepts like predestination and election.
  • Smi shirkie... March 10, 2008 12:01:25
    Smi
    So you based your arguments on the bible. That's fine. But I just disagree with the fact that the bible should be the only source of Christianity. Religion is something which has to be continuously reformed and many Christians lived between the time when the last words of the bible were written and now. The world of today is not the same as the one 2000 years ago, fortunately.
  • +2 raves
    PolyTicks Smi March 13, 2008 15:53:41
    PolyTicks
    John Wesley taught that there are four sources for theological analysis: scripture, tradition, reason, and experience. Others believe in "Sola Scriptura", in which the Bible is the only source; "Prima Scriptura", in which others are used but scripture is the primary source, and "Hermeneutics", which is the study of different religious texts. I'm somewhere between The Wesleyan Quadrilateral and Prima Scriptura.
  • +1 raves
    shirkie - "In CHRIST I trust!" March 09, 2008 22:02:34
    shirkie -

    Predestination (God chose me!)

    I have to answer this question with an analogy.

    Some like to imagine the act of salvation as a drowning man struggling in the middle of the ocean. God throws him a lifesaver, and it's up to the man to decide whether or not he wants to accept it.

    However, it might be more accurate to take that image... And posit that the man has already drowned. He's dead in the water. God takes him from the water and gives him CPR-- no choice on behalf of the man. God saves him because He wants to save him.

    I think this seems valid. After all, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, Lazarus was not given a choice about whether he wanted to be raised or not-- Jesus called his name, and he arose. I think that's the way we all are... Spiritually dead until God quickens our hearts and enables us to "choose" Him.

    What do you all think?
  • Jwalden... shirkie... March 13, 2008 09:13:14
    Jwalden --- Constitution Party
    actually I can have fun with the 'Lazarus' thought, Lazarus was raised by Jesus, but, could he not after being unwrapped of the graveclothes cursed Christ for raising him?
    I agree that Lazarus would not had, nor did he because of their friendship and the wonder of worship; however, the challenge is still an interesting question.

    [I am a fellow student and teacher by faith]
  • PolyTicks Jwalden... March 13, 2008 16:13:39
    PolyTicks
    I believe that Lazarus was in a state of rest, not in Heaven. After all, Jesus did say that Lazarus was only sleeping. "Our friend Lazarus sleeps." (John 11:9, NKJV) In verse 14, He verified that "Lazarus is dead," so this is an argument in favor of the death-sleep theory. I Cor. 15:6, 20, as well as other passages, describe death as "falling asleep." Verses 22-23 explain that the dead in Christ shall rise "at His coming." Finally, verses 51-52 state, "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Hebrews 3-4 also speaks of entering the "rest" of God. See also Revelation 6:11, 14:11-13.

    "...the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing..." Eccelsiastes 9:5
  • shirkie... PolyTicks March 18, 2008 19:39:54
    shirkie -
    You believe Lazarus wasn't dead? Then why was it a miracle? No, Lazarus was in his graveclothes because he was dead.
  • tg shirkie... March 18, 2008 06:58:45
    tg
    your on it! :-) let the Holy Spirit continue to use you to speak the truth and shame the devil!
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