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Why is there something rather than nothing?

Ron–Born from Above 2011/12/02 20:12:12
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  • IndyLinda 2011/12/02 21:29:28
    An eternal self-existent God created the universe.
    IndyLinda
    +6
    "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men." -- Proverbs 8:22-31

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  • ehrhornp 2012/06/09 23:05:16
    The universe was self created.
    ehrhornp
    First there was the big bang probably happened when parallel universes collided, and everything has been moving since.
  • Ron–Bor... ehrhornp 2012/06/11 22:35:31
    Ron–Born from Above
    All this is theory, not law. A single event in the past is non repeatable.
  • ehrhornp Ron–Bor... 2012/06/11 22:51:52
    ehrhornp
    Well when I was younger it was theorized that the Universe would eventually stop expanding and retracting leading to a big collapse which would be followed by a new big bang. That theory has seemed to have bitten the dust but who knows what new things they will come up with.
  • FREED Jesus is LORD♥ 2011/12/08 15:15:26
    An eternal self-existent God created the universe.
    FREED Jesus is LORD♥
    +2
    "In the beginning God created the heavens [plural] and earth...and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, Let there be light...then God said, Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters...Then God said,... Then God said, ..."
    Genesis 1-2

    "The heavens are telling of the glory of God. And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands...." Psalm 19

    "For by Him [Christ] all things were created both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Colossians 1:13-17

    God Bless you yaz†
  • Ron–Bor... FREED J... 2011/12/08 17:46:25
    Ron–Born from Above
    +1
    Amen and Amen!

    Great use of Scripture! Very true, true...

    God Bless you Freed† : )
  • Melody 2011/12/05 00:19:47
    The universe was self created.
    Melody
    +1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    There is no need for a god let alone space for one.
  • Ron–Bor... Melody 2011/12/05 01:09:05
    Ron–Born from Above
    +2
    The universe had to have a beginning. If If the universe is eternal and you never had a first moment then you would never had reach the moment of creation, for you would have to traverse an infinite amount of moments no matter how many moments you traverse you would still have an infinite amount more. You could never reach the moment of creation or now. So the universe had to have a beginning. Time isn't our measurements of change. time is actually change itself.
  • Melody Ron–Bor... 2011/12/05 21:12:25
    Melody
    Did I say it didn't have a beginning..? Nope.
    It had a beginning, the big bang. Black holes, abiogenisis.. I'm not going to reiterate what you should have learned in school about physics and space. Read.
  • Ron–Bor... Melody 2011/12/05 22:16:40
    Ron–Born from Above
    +1
    Abiogenesis is based on assumptions, and have no warrant in scientific methodology.

    And yes you did say the universe was self created, that is what you checked for your answer.

    Your condescending statement make you look like a fool.
  • Melody Ron–Bor... 2011/12/06 12:33:48
    Melody
    +1
    "Universe is self created" does not at all mean "Universe had no begining"
    Hahaha, wow
  • Ron–Bor... Melody 2011/12/06 17:35:47
    Ron–Born from Above
    I'm sorry, I was not paying attention. You are right, I was wrong.
  • Radical Ed 2011/12/04 07:34:12
    There is nothing, all is an illusion
    Radical Ed
    +1
    there is a high probability that we live in a matrix-esque universe created by a very sophisticated computer.
  • Ron–Bor... Radical Ed 2011/12/04 07:53:24
    Ron–Born from Above
    +2
    Who built the computer? Megastratix you make being on SH all the more fun! : )

    Peace!
  • Radical Ed Ron–Bor... 2011/12/04 07:58:56
    Radical Ed
    +1
    a very talented computer programmer :).
  • Thank y... Ron–Bor... 2011/12/04 16:55:23
    Thank you but no...
    He's right, if we allow that such a thing was possible at all, then it would stand to reason that everyone who could do it, would do it. That would mean that by far the majority of universes and people would be simulated, and your chance of NOT being simulated would be very small indeed.
  • Thank you but no... 2011/12/04 02:43:03
    The universe was self created.
    Thank you but no...
    +2
    Why is there something rather than nothing? Because something is the more natural state of affairs and is thus more likely than nothing-more than twice as likely according to one calculation. We can infer this from the processes of nature where simple systems tend to be unstable and often spontaneously transform into more complex ones. Theoretical models such as the inflationary model of the early universe bear this out.

    Consider the example of the snowflake. Our experience tells us that a snowflake is very ephemeral, melting quickly to drops of liquid water that exhibit far less structure. But that is only because we live in a relatively high temperature environment, where collisions with molecules in thermal motion reduce the fragile arrangement of crystals to a simpler liquid. Energy is required to destroy the structure of a snowflake.

    But consider an environment where the ambient temperature is well below the melting point of ice, as it is in most of the universe far from the highly localized effects of stellar heating. In such an environment, any water vapor would readily crystallize into complex structures. Snowflakes would be eternal, or at least will remain intact until cosmic rays tear them apart.

    What this example illustrates is that many simple systems are unstab...

    Why is there something rather than nothing? Because something is the more natural state of affairs and is thus more likely than nothing-more than twice as likely according to one calculation. We can infer this from the processes of nature where simple systems tend to be unstable and often spontaneously transform into more complex ones. Theoretical models such as the inflationary model of the early universe bear this out.

    Consider the example of the snowflake. Our experience tells us that a snowflake is very ephemeral, melting quickly to drops of liquid water that exhibit far less structure. But that is only because we live in a relatively high temperature environment, where collisions with molecules in thermal motion reduce the fragile arrangement of crystals to a simpler liquid. Energy is required to destroy the structure of a snowflake.

    But consider an environment where the ambient temperature is well below the melting point of ice, as it is in most of the universe far from the highly localized effects of stellar heating. In such an environment, any water vapor would readily crystallize into complex structures. Snowflakes would be eternal, or at least will remain intact until cosmic rays tear them apart.

    What this example illustrates is that many simple systems are unstable, that is, have limited lifetimes as they undergo spontaneous phase transitions to more complex structures of lower energy. Since “nothing” is as simple as it gets, we would not expect it to be completely stable. In some models of the origin of the universe, the vacuum undergoes a spontaneous phase transition to something more complicated, like a universe containing matter. The transition nothing-to-something is a natural one, not requiring any external agent.

    As Nobel Laureate physicist Frank Wilczek has put it, “The answer to the ancient question ‘Why is there something rather than nothing?’ would then be that ‘nothing’ is unstable.”
    (more)
  • Ron–Bor... Thank y... 2011/12/04 07:56:46
    Ron–Born from Above
    +1
    From nothing comes nothing. Nothing can't do anything or create anything. Nothing is non existence.
  • Thank y... Ron–Bor... 2011/12/04 16:43:45 (edited)
    Thank you but no...
    +1
    And you assert this with what factual evidence?

    The real meaning of the question is not to find an answer, except to say that some god exists, but to show that atheists cannot explain everything and answer every question posed by theists.

    I mean, is there really a *reason* why there is something? Does there have to be? And why is it so much more improbable that the reason is natural rather than supernatural? Just because it is the *ultimate* question?

    In other words, is there a reason why the earth moves around the sun? Yes, there are physical laws that govern and explain earth’s movements, but is there something else behind its movements? The theists like to think that there is. Most atheists think otherwise.

    But does this invalidate the atheist position in any way whatsoever? I think not. Why does there have to be some outside, conscious reason for any physical phenomenon? There doesn’t. For the human race, we like to think we are special in some way. That we are chosen. That we exist for some purpose bigger than we can imagine. But the simple truth is that we are quite insignificant, very minor specks in the grand universe. Does anyone outside our solar system even know that we exist? So, to fight against such a nihilistic attitude, theists propose some almighty deity that ...





    And you assert this with what factual evidence?

    The real meaning of the question is not to find an answer, except to say that some god exists, but to show that atheists cannot explain everything and answer every question posed by theists.

    I mean, is there really a *reason* why there is something? Does there have to be? And why is it so much more improbable that the reason is natural rather than supernatural? Just because it is the *ultimate* question?

    In other words, is there a reason why the earth moves around the sun? Yes, there are physical laws that govern and explain earth’s movements, but is there something else behind its movements? The theists like to think that there is. Most atheists think otherwise.

    But does this invalidate the atheist position in any way whatsoever? I think not. Why does there have to be some outside, conscious reason for any physical phenomenon? There doesn’t. For the human race, we like to think we are special in some way. That we are chosen. That we exist for some purpose bigger than we can imagine. But the simple truth is that we are quite insignificant, very minor specks in the grand universe. Does anyone outside our solar system even know that we exist? So, to fight against such a nihilistic attitude, theists propose some almighty deity that thinks we are special beings. To make us feel better, I suppose. Honestly, it doesn’t do much for me.

    The entire universe, everything that we have any knowledge about, came into existence at some point in time about 14 million millennia ago. Before that, well, it’s anybody’s guess. As an atheist and a naturalist, I think that a natural explanation is more probable than a supernatural one. To support such an assertion, all we have to do is examine all the other misunderstandings that humans have had throughout history.

    For example, it was once thought that the weather was controlled by the gods. It was once thought that the sun was controlled by the gods. It was once thought that the entire universe circled around the earth. We all now know otherwise. The beginning of the universe, its coming into existence, is no different. It is greater, obviously, and has to be considered the ultimate physical phenomenon of all time. But to credit the gods with its creation is the same as praying to the gods for a good rain shower to ease the drought.

    Just because we do not understand something, does not necessitate a god to explain it.
    (more)
  • brutusin~ Proud Apetheist 2011/12/04 01:28:55
    There is nothing, all is an illusion
    brutusin~ Proud Apetheist
    +2
    For the most part it really is, but I digress. We exsit the why and the how is still being worked on.
  • Ron–Bor... brutusi... 2011/12/04 01:35:08
    Ron–Born from Above
    +2
    When you finally figure out why you exist than let me know. "I think, therefore I am"
  • brutusi... Ron–Bor... 2011/12/04 01:54:36
    brutusin~ Proud Apetheist
    +1
    I exist because my mother and father had sex and boom I was born (no stork (or god) needed).
  • socokid 2011/12/04 01:16:09
    The universe has always existed for eternity.
    socokid
    +3
    Not enough answers to choose from. Currently, the only correct answer is "we are not 'exactly' sure, yet".

    But, maybe take up theoretical physics, if interested?
  • Ron–Bor... socokid 2011/12/04 01:33:09
    Ron–Born from Above
    +2
    Kid, that list is not my own, but of philosophers. Sorry if it doesn't work out for you. Are you glad to be unblocked? : )
  • Theatre... Ron–Bor... 2011/12/04 02:15:08
    TheatreAddict
    +1
    Philosophy is iffy. Science says that "We aren't exactly sure, yet."
  • Ron–Bor... Theatre... 2011/12/04 07:58:45
    Ron–Born from Above
    +1
    Philosophy is big bubble, but I like it.
  • Theatre... Ron–Bor... 2011/12/05 02:09:50
    TheatreAddict
    Philosophy can be useful, but science actually tries to solve the problem. The main flaw of Philosophy is when people sit and think about a certain problem for way too long from an isolated perspective. Science helps us take in new ideas and actually test and evaluate our hypothesis.
  • Ron–Bor... Theatre... 2011/12/05 06:43:36
    Ron–Born from Above
    Science is based on high probability.
  • Theatre... Ron–Bor... 2011/12/05 20:08:30
    TheatreAddict
    Yes, yes it is. Problem?
  • socokid Ron–Bor... 2011/12/04 15:37:20
    socokid
    Philosophers trying to answer scientific questions can be highly problematic. Fun for some, I suppose. The answers to choose from seemed quite scientific as well. Nothing in there about what each would mean to our "existence", etc...
  • TheatreAddict 2011/12/03 17:11:36
    The universe was created by chance.
    TheatreAddict
    +2
    I'll admit, there's an extremely small possibility that the universe exploding was random. But there's an even smaller possibility that the universe what created by God.

    That's because God is a complex thing, and the more complexities that are added to the original problem, the less likely it becomes.

    The problem with an eternal self-existent God creating the universe, is that it explains absolutely nothing. You might just as well shrug and say "Poof. Magic."
  • Ron–Bor... Theatre... 2011/12/03 18:54:28
    Ron–Born from Above
    +1
    I've heard Christopher Hitchens give this same shallow answer.
  • Theatre... Ron–Bor... 2011/12/03 22:06:41
    TheatreAddict
    +1
    This is why it annoys me when Christians say that atheists don't listen to their opinions, but then they completely fail to answer atheists arguments.

    Alright, so why is it shallow?
  • Ron–Bor... Theatre... 2011/12/04 00:34:29
    Ron–Born from Above
    +1
    First, you say that the starting point of the universe is a problem. This simply is not the case from a Biblical stand point, only those who don't believe in God is it a problem. Second, to say adding God to the universe that is so complex makes it more complex is not true. If you have a piece pottery without the potter, where did the pottery come from?

    In a mindless universe why are there even laws of nature. Existence didn’t have to be that way, as Einstein reminded us when he said, “The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible.” Where did these laws come from and what came first the universe or the laws? It's a question whether those laws are unique and inevitable or flaky as a leaf in the wind.
  • Theatre... Ron–Bor... 2011/12/04 00:40:06
    TheatreAddict
    +1
    Science is brave enough to answer those questions with an, "I don't know."

    Saying that God created the universe explains no more than if I say the universe was created by magic.

    When you say that you have a piece of pottery, but no potter, it seems like a reasonable hypothesis at first.

    But... well, I'll just let Eliezer Yudkowsky say it for me:

    "But when you look at all the apparent purposefulness in Nature, rather than picking and choosing your examples, you start to notice things that don't fit the Christian concept of one benevolent God. Foxes seem well-designed to catch rabbits. Rabbits seem well-designed to evade foxes. Was God having trouble making up His mind?

    When I design a toaster oven, I don't design one part that tries to get electricity to the coils and a second part that tries to prevent electricity from getting to the coils. It would be a waste of effort. Who designed the ecosystem, with its predators and prey, viruses and bacteria? Even the cactus plant, which you might think well-designed to provide water fruit to desert animals, is covered with inconvenient spines.

    The ecosystem would make much more sense if it wasn't designed by a unitary Who, but, rather, created by a horde of deities - say from the Hindu or Shinto religions. This handily explains both the...









    Science is brave enough to answer those questions with an, "I don't know."

    Saying that God created the universe explains no more than if I say the universe was created by magic.

    When you say that you have a piece of pottery, but no potter, it seems like a reasonable hypothesis at first.

    But... well, I'll just let Eliezer Yudkowsky say it for me:

    "But when you look at all the apparent purposefulness in Nature, rather than picking and choosing your examples, you start to notice things that don't fit the Christian concept of one benevolent God. Foxes seem well-designed to catch rabbits. Rabbits seem well-designed to evade foxes. Was God having trouble making up His mind?

    When I design a toaster oven, I don't design one part that tries to get electricity to the coils and a second part that tries to prevent electricity from getting to the coils. It would be a waste of effort. Who designed the ecosystem, with its predators and prey, viruses and bacteria? Even the cactus plant, which you might think well-designed to provide water fruit to desert animals, is covered with inconvenient spines.

    The ecosystem would make much more sense if it wasn't designed by a unitary Who, but, rather, created by a horde of deities - say from the Hindu or Shinto religions. This handily explains both the ubiquitous purposefulnesses, and the ubiquitous conflicts: More than one deity acted, often at cross-purposes. The fox and rabbit were both designed, but by distinct competing deities. I wonder if anyone ever remarked on the seemingly excellent evidence thus provided for Hinduism over Christianity. Probably not.

    Similarly, the Christian God is alleged to be benevolent - well, sort of. And yet much of nature's purposefulness seems downright cruel. Darwin suspected a non-standard Creator for studying Ichneumon wasps, whose paralyzing stings preserve its prey to be eaten alive by its larvae: "I cannot persuade myself," wrote Darwin, "that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice." I wonder if any earlier thinker remarked on the excellent evidence thus provided for Manichaen religions over monotheistic ones.

    By now we all know the punchline: You just say "evolution".

    I worry that's how some people are absorbing the "scientific" explanation, as a magical purposefulness factory in Nature. I've previously discussed the case of Storm from the movie X-Men, who in one mutation gets the ability to throw lightning bolts. Why? Well, there's this thing called "evolution" that somehow pumps a lot of purposefulness into Nature, and the changes happen through "mutations". So if Storm gets a really large mutation, she can be redesigned to throw lightning bolts. Radioactivity is a popular super origin: radiation causes mutations, so more powerful radiation causes more powerful mutations. That's logic.

    But evolution doesn't allow just any kind of purposefulness to leak into Nature. That's what makes evolution a success as an empirical hypothesis. If evolutionary biology could explain a toaster oven, not just a tree, it would be worthless. There's a lot more to evolutionary theory than pointing at Nature and saying, "Now purpose is allowed," or "Evolution did it!" The strength of a theory is not what it allows, but what it prohibits; if you can invent an equally persuasive explanation for any outcome, you have zero knowledge."

    I'm hoping you don't think, "tl;dr", because this pretty much explains why the potter/pottery analogy is false.
    (more)
  • Reality-Check 2011/12/03 09:21:03 (edited)
    The universe has always existed for eternity.
    Reality-Check
    I have a very good education.. and do not believe in a god...

    I don't think we will ever know the facts of how humanity came to be...

    Science and religion are both faith based, humanity has some answers but these are restricted to current knowledge, religion is convoluted to say the least and is restricted to ancient re-written history...

    I have faith in what I know to be factual...

    Posting reams of scripture or scientific facts proves nothing...
  • Theatre... Reality... 2011/12/03 17:12:09
    TheatreAddict
    Haven't you studied the big bang? The universe hasn't always existed.
  • Reality... Theatre... 2011/12/03 17:15:09
    Reality-Check
    I'm really pleased you said that... now think about the consequences of your statement!
  • Theatre... Reality... 2011/12/03 17:17:13
    TheatreAddict
    I'm not sure what you're talking about.
  • Reality... Theatre... 2011/12/03 17:19:32
    Reality-Check
    Existance...
  • Theatre... Reality... 2011/12/03 17:20:53
    TheatreAddict
    No, the universe hasn't always existed. The Big Bang is what started things off.

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