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Who Really Follows Jesus? (test)

Abdullah Baspren 2012/08/06 11:06:47
Islam Question & Answer

Christians - Can You Pass 'The Jesus Test'?
Jesus Test2
Who Really Follows Jesus?
Take the Test & see

This "Test" was designed by former Christian and convert to Islam, Yusuf Estesfrom Texas.

He asks us to take the test and find out once and for all ---

Christians Claim - Jesus is "Son of God"
Muslims Say - Jesus is a "Prophet of God"
But the Real Question is -

"Who Really Follows Jesus?"
Jesus Christ Who
Test Your Knowledge of Jesus' Teachings & Consider these 14 Interesting Questions:
The Jesus Test
Introduction to the Message of the Prophets of The "Lost" and "Last" Testaments
- Yusuf Estes

1). Did Jesus teach eternal life was conditioned on obeying the commandments?
Yes ___
No __

Answer in the Bible:
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tempted him, saying, "Master what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the Law? How do you read?" And he answered saying, "Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind, and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him. You have answered right; do this, and you shall live."

Luke 10: 25-28
God has only created us to worship Him (without partners).
Read Last Testament (Quran) Chapter 51, verse 56; chapter 4, verse 48; chapter 112, all verses
2). Did Jesus teach his followers to serve no other god, except Almighty God, and worship Him without any partners?
Yes ___
No ___
Answer in the Bible:
And Jesus answered him, the first of all the commandments is,
"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall worship Him with all your strength and all your might and all your soul and all your heart."
Mark 12:29
He also replied to the devil who was trying to tempt him:
Answer in the Bible:
"Get thee behind me, Satan; for it is written, Thou shall worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shall you serve."
Matthew 4:10
Read from the Last Testament (Quran) 4:48

God tells us that He never forgives anyone making partners in worship with Him, but anything less than this, He forgives whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Him in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin.
3). Did Jesus order us to obey all the commandments?
Yes ___
No ___
According to the New Testament in Matthew, he did.
Answer in the Bible:
"Think not that I came to destroy the Law and the Prophets. I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you that until Heaven and earth pass away not a jot or one tittle shall no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled."
Matthew 5:17-18
Answer in the Bible:
"And behold one came and said to him, Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, this God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 19:16-17
Answer in the Bible:
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 7:12


Answer in the Bible:
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:36-40
While ordering us to obey the "Law" it becomes obvious that he ordered his followers to obey the commandments of Almighty God.
4.) Did Jesus forbid bowing down to statues?
Yes ___
No ___
By insisting on following the "Law" (Old Testament), Jesus did in fact endorse the message that Moses had brought down to the children of Israel from Almighty God;

Answer in the Bible:
"Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them."
5.) Did Jesus forbid anyone to worship him?
Yes ___
No ___
Answer in the Bible:
"But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
Matthew 15:19
And in prophesying the Last Days, he clearly taught the same message:

Answer in the Bible:
"But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: For the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth."
John 4:23-24
6.) Did Jesus openly deny divinity (said he was not God)?
Yes___
No ___
Answer in the Bible:
"The Father is greater than I." - John 14:28
7.) Did Jesus deny that he had the power of God to do his miracles?
Yes ___
No ___
Answer in the Bible:
"I do nothing of myself" - John 8:28
"Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."
Acts 2:22
8.) Did Jesus deny any partners (Trinity) with Almighty God?
Yes ___
No ___
Answer in the Bible:
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 8:42

Answer in the Bible:
Jesus answered, If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honors me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
John 8:54
Answer in the Bible:
…and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:17
9.) Did Jesus forbid the Christmas tree?
Yes ___
No ___
Answer in the Bible:
"Thus says the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain; for one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."
Jeremiah 10:2-4
10.) Did Jesus teach that males should be circumcised?
Yes ___
No ___
Genesis 17:10-11 says he did. "This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your seed after you. Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between me and you."

Answer in the Bible:
John the Baptist was circumcised (Luke 1:59) as was Jesus himself (Luke 2:21)
11.) Did Jesus forbid eating pork?
Yes ___
No ___
Answer in the Bible:
"And swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven-footed, yet he chews not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall you not eat, and their carcass shall you not touch, they are unclean to you."
Leviticus 11:7-8 And Exodus 20:4-5
12.) Was Jesus a prophet?
Yes ___
No ___
Answer in the Bible:
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.
Luke 24:19

Answer in the Bible:
The woman said unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
John 4:19

Answer in the Bible:
They say unto the blind man again, What do you say of him, that he has opened your eyes? He said, He is a prophet.
John 9:17
13.) Did Jesus predict the coming of another prophet, like unto him?
Yes ___
No ___
Consider from the Bible, things that are most compatible with Islam, for instance the teaching of John 16:7-8

Answer in the Bible:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.
John 16:7-8
14.) What does the "Last Testament" (Quran) say on these same subjects. Does it agree?
Yes ___
No ___

Answer in the QURAN:
... Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Almighty God to you - confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad."
Surah As-Saff 61 verse 6

OK. You took the test - What is the result?
Who had the best score?
Christians or Muslims?

Who Really Follows Jesus Today?
________

Bonus Question (#15) -- Did Jesus call for 'Peace' Or the 'Sword'?
Peace___ Sword ___

The word "Sword" appears in the Bible over 200 times, many in the New Testament. (Not even once in Quran)

Answer: Matthew 10:34
"Do not think I came to bring peace on earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
(quote from Jesus, peace be upon him, according to the New Testament Bible):

And Luke 22:36:
"But now, whoever has a money belt is to talk it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."

More about "Sword in Islam": Sword in Islam and Crusades in Our World

Any good is from Allah the mistakes were from myself. May Allah guide all of us to His Truth, ameen.

Salam alaykum - Yusuf Estes
National Muslim Chaplain
__
Articles and Answers are from:
Yusuf Estes, National Muslim chaplain. He is an American born, former Christian, and as a student of many excellent scholars, he only offers assistance to provide accurate authentic information in easy English to questions about Islam Muslims.

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Top Opinion

  • TheR 2012/08/06 11:55:39 (edited)
    TheR
    +3
    You have to remember Jesus was born to his time in history, many things said reflect the olden times, the cultural infancy of their time. As time matures, and people reflect and became more intelligent and educated, we see if Jesus said something during his time, it would be as if a older man looking at his writings when he was a teenager. Also did Jesus know a Bible was being written, taking down for word everything he said? Certainly not, at least as far as the Bible contends. So how could Jesus say things to reflect the future generations, and for future generations to think Jesus sayings during his time, is the same during our current time? Also all writings in the Bible are different, according to the New Testament Books; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. ex: The author of Matthew claims differently than Mark, than Luke, and John. So to think all things to be said by Jesus by those authors can only be taken with a grain of salt. Indeed he may have never said.


    This can be a double edge sword, because people knowing this, will advocate it is OK to do evil, when it is not OK.



    We need to look more at how Jesus lived his life, and what he did, which were acts of kindness, miracles, and good will to his fellow Brethren.

    Jesus Today

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Opinions

  • Spizzzo BN-0 2013/06/02 12:24:35
    Spizzzo BN-0
    +1
    Lame. Using one scripture to try to disprove the scripture of another religion is just lame. Gets you nowhere.
  • gracious43 2012/12/31 04:39:05
    gracious43
    +2
    Josef Estes is a fraud, that the Muslims might believe because they don't know enough about the Christian religion to know any better, but Christians can see through his balarney easily because we know how the Christian faith works. Mr Estes knows nothing about the bible.

    Jesus came to pay the price for the New Covenant that God had with men, Jews and Gentiles alike. It was a covenant prophesied by the Prophets of God. The covenant was bought and paid for with the blood of God; and, the covenant is entered by all men through faith, by the grace of God.


    Jeremiah 31:30-32
    30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.
    31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    32 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they broke my covenant,
    though I was a husband to[a] them,[b]”
    declares the Lord.



    38.Matthew 26:28
    This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

    39.Mark 14:24
    “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them.


    2 Corinthians 3:5-8
    5 Not ...






    Josef Estes is a fraud, that the Muslims might believe because they don't know enough about the Christian religion to know any better, but Christians can see through his balarney easily because we know how the Christian faith works. Mr Estes knows nothing about the bible.

    Jesus came to pay the price for the New Covenant that God had with men, Jews and Gentiles alike. It was a covenant prophesied by the Prophets of God. The covenant was bought and paid for with the blood of God; and, the covenant is entered by all men through faith, by the grace of God.


    Jeremiah 31:30-32
    30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.
    31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    32 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they broke my covenant,
    though I was a husband to[a] them,[b]”
    declares the Lord.



    38.Matthew 26:28
    This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

    39.Mark 14:24
    “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them.


    2 Corinthians 3:5-8
    5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
    7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?


    Hebrews 8:5-7
    5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

    7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
    (more)
  • Abdulla... gracious43 2013/01/01 07:19:55
    Abdullah Baspren
    +1
    Who said it is ignorant of Christianity?
    Do we know what is your degree in Christian are you?

    Yusuf Estes (1944) is an American missionary who converted to Islam before his conversion to Islam was named the Joseph Edward Estes or Joseph Estes, born in the United States and grew up in a ((( Protestant Christian family and became a priest. He earned a Master of Arts in 1974 and a doctorate in theology )))). After dealing with a Muslim Egyptian named Mohammed Abdul Rahman converted to Islam in 1991 he and his wife and his father and his father's wife, and then after learning Arabic and Islamic studies from the year 1991 to the year 1998 in Egypt, Morocco and Turkey. And works in the area of ​​advocacy in the United States and has tapes and lectures in English. [1]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    http://www.islamtomorrow.com/...

    http://yusufestes.com/
  • gracious43 Abdulla... 2013/01/01 08:00:48
    gracious43
    +1
    What denomination did Yusuf preach for? What church did he work for? Can you find that information for me? We could call them and ask them. I looked him up a long time ago, and never could learn anything about him.

    It might interest you to know that the only denominations in the Christian faith which use priests are Catholics, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, some Lutheran denominations and Mormons. Was he any of these? I know he wasn't Catholic because he had a wife. some Anglicans also have to be celibate. The Protestants use the terms "preacher" or "minister" or "pastor" I can't find out anything about his "music jamboree" bit. I don't know what that means.

    It is something that Christians just know, but Muslims don't. So we read about Yusuf and know he is playing Muslims for fools. But Christians know that his story just doesn't add up. One thing I read, written by him, was that he visited around to a lot of different churches. But that doesn't make him a Christian, or even that knowledgeable, and most definitely, he wouldn't be visiting around if he was a "priest" of some church now, would he?

    I don't mean to be hurtful. I know that you don't have any way of knowing this. Another fake ex-Christian, Muslim Convert is Gary Miller. He's as fake as they come.

    As to what my degree is...

    What denomination did Yusuf preach for? What church did he work for? Can you find that information for me? We could call them and ask them. I looked him up a long time ago, and never could learn anything about him.

    It might interest you to know that the only denominations in the Christian faith which use priests are Catholics, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, some Lutheran denominations and Mormons. Was he any of these? I know he wasn't Catholic because he had a wife. some Anglicans also have to be celibate. The Protestants use the terms "preacher" or "minister" or "pastor" I can't find out anything about his "music jamboree" bit. I don't know what that means.

    It is something that Christians just know, but Muslims don't. So we read about Yusuf and know he is playing Muslims for fools. But Christians know that his story just doesn't add up. One thing I read, written by him, was that he visited around to a lot of different churches. But that doesn't make him a Christian, or even that knowledgeable, and most definitely, he wouldn't be visiting around if he was a "priest" of some church now, would he?

    I don't mean to be hurtful. I know that you don't have any way of knowing this. Another fake ex-Christian, Muslim Convert is Gary Miller. He's as fake as they come.

    As to what my degree is, it doesn't matter. I'm not trying to impress you with my degree. I wouldn't have a degree in preaching now anyway, would I? Since I'm a woman. I'm just telling you what the bible says.

    If Josef was really an ex-priest, he would know exactly how Christians would handle his "Bible Scholar Quiz"--Christians would give you exactly the answers I gave. Both the Old Testament, of the Jews and the New Testament call Jesus God. Both the Old Testament of the Jews, and the New Testament talk about the new covenant that God would have with man. Do you see how I was raved by two people? That is two people who are Christians from two different denominations than me, who, while we don't agree on some things, know exactly what the bible says about the things I quoted.
    (more)
  • Abdulla... gracious43 2013/01/01 10:41:25
    Abdullah Baspren
    +1
    Thank God ..For us as Muslims
    We have one book .. One copy as revealed to the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him since more than 1400 years as it is without any change even one character .. (This is proof miracles of the Quran, which ensure that God saved from distortion)
  • gracious43 Abdulla... 2013/01/01 17:08:27
    gracious43
    I praise you in that you have the wisdom to examine the integrity of the scriptures themselves, instead of relying on a fake ex-Christian to discover the truth, and win souls.

    The bible has never changed. The canon of both the NT and the OT has been established since the day that men of God revealed them. The texts that Christians hold in their hands are the exact message that the prophets and apostles of God wrote, no later than the 1st century CE. In case there is ever any doubt, translators of the NT appeal to the earlier extant texts to acertain the integrity of a scripture. Islam simply has no earlier extant texts, because they were all burnt.


    Uthman sent out one copy of this newly established original to every country and issued orders that every differing compilation or script of the Quran should be burnt. (Mishkat vol.III p.708).

    Hadith 510 510. Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Quran. So he said to Uthman, "O chief of the believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So Uthman ...





    I praise you in that you have the wisdom to examine the integrity of the scriptures themselves, instead of relying on a fake ex-Christian to discover the truth, and win souls.

    The bible has never changed. The canon of both the NT and the OT has been established since the day that men of God revealed them. The texts that Christians hold in their hands are the exact message that the prophets and apostles of God wrote, no later than the 1st century CE. In case there is ever any doubt, translators of the NT appeal to the earlier extant texts to acertain the integrity of a scripture. Islam simply has no earlier extant texts, because they were all burnt.


    Uthman sent out one copy of this newly established original to every country and issued orders that every differing compilation or script of the Quran should be burnt. (Mishkat vol.III p.708).

    Hadith 510 510. Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Quran. So he said to Uthman, "O chief of the believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, "Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in the dialect of Quraish as the Quran was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Zaid bin Thabit added, "A verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle (SAW) reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33:23) Vol. 6 -Virtues of the Quran

    Hadith 511. Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr sent for me and said "you used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle (SAW): So you should search for (the Quran and collect) it." I started searching for the Quran till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khazaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him. (They were): 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad (SAW)) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. . . (9:128-129) Vol. 6 -Virtues of the Quran - Hadith 511

    "Many (of the passages) of the Qur'an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama ... but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur'an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them." (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p. 23).

    Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524 It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'
    (more)
  • Spizzzo BN-0 2012/09/09 09:16:09
    Spizzzo BN-0
    +1
    So? These questions are obviously asked by someone with little-to-no knowledge of Christianity, especially of the non-fundamentalist sort and is aimed at fundamentalist Christians with fundamentalist Islamic arguments. Won't work, especially with non-fundamentalists.
  • Abdulla... Spizzzo... 2012/09/09 10:58:07
    Abdullah Baspren
    This "Test" was designed by former Christian and convert to Islam, Yusuf Estes from Texas.

    http://yusufestes.com/
  • Spizzzo... Abdulla... 2012/09/09 10:59:32
    Spizzzo BN-0
    So what? Are you so ignorant of Christianity as to think that Christianity is as unified as Islam is?
  • Abdulla... Spizzzo... 2012/09/10 05:42:45
    Abdullah Baspren
    Torah and the Bible and the Koran ..All heavenly books (from the same God)
    Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. All the prophets (from the same God)

    When be Muslim means is that you believe in all the heavenly books and all the prophets
    Why Islam (because it is the last religion .. and not because it goes against Christianity or Judaism .. Muslim is not a Muslim if he did not believe in them and their writings.
  • David H... Spizzzo... 2013/01/01 07:42:06
    David Hussey
    +1
    And are you so ignorant to think that Islam is unified?
  • Abdulla... David H... 2013/01/01 10:44:47
  • David H... Abdulla... 2013/01/01 18:39:06
    David Hussey
    +1
    Thank you, but I fail to see the document's relevance to my comment.
  • Spizzzo... David H... 2013/01/17 18:32:02
    Spizzzo BN-0
    +1
    Yes. What significant divisions do you recognize, particularly in key areas like the innerancy of the Koran?
  • David H... Spizzzo... 2013/01/18 01:04:40
    David Hussey
    +1
    The most obvious one is the divide between Shia and Sunni. The Sunni look at the Quran as a foundation upon which to build theology, where as the Shia look at it as God's decree, set in stone and to be interpreted literally. And within the two major divisions you will find further fractionalizations, with some sects merging aspects of the two and blurring the distinction between the two. The Wahhabi sects being a good example of this, strict adherence to the literal interpretation of the scriptures more akin to Shia Islam, but considering themselves Sunni because they believe Abu Bakr to be the legitimate successor to Muhammad as opposed to Ali as believed by the Shia.
  • Spizzzo... David H... 2013/01/28 10:59:40
    Spizzzo BN-0
    +1
    Thanks for a great and very informative answer that teaches me a lot. About all I'd known was that Sufis were very mystical (and therefore maybe not so literal. Still, I tend to think of the Shia/Sunni split on Koranic interpretation to be much less thant he Conservative/Liberal split in Christianity; in that I'd call the Islamic split more like Very Conservatifve/Conservative. Am I wrong?
  • David H... Spizzzo... 2013/01/29 04:56:27
    David Hussey
    +1
    You're welcome Spizzzo.

    As for the nature of the Islamic split being a Very Conservatifve/Conservative one, there is perhaps a bit of that, but it must be taken into account that we in the West have shown a rather nasty habit of getting rid of any of the progressive Islamic societies.

    For example, Iran following WW2 was on a very progressive path, pursuing 'liberal' goals of democracy, social equality of the sexes and looking to emulate the widespread education and prosperity enjoyed by Western nations. That of course was up until the point where a MI6\CIA coup derailed that agenda that installed a brutal dictator.... a dictator whose reign of tyranny fueled support for the Islamic extremists who oppress the Iranian people today.

    iraq is another example of our intervention in the progression of moderate Islamic societies. Now don't get me wrong, Saddam was as brutal a ruler as they come, but the Iraqi society under his rule was a secular one where religion played no part in the affairs of government. A society where there was education for all who wanted it, a great system for the healthcare of the entire populace and a society where women were not only allowed to participate, but actively encouraged to do so. But we all know what happened to that society, we stuck our noses ...



    You're welcome Spizzzo.

    As for the nature of the Islamic split being a Very Conservatifve/Conservative one, there is perhaps a bit of that, but it must be taken into account that we in the West have shown a rather nasty habit of getting rid of any of the progressive Islamic societies.

    For example, Iran following WW2 was on a very progressive path, pursuing 'liberal' goals of democracy, social equality of the sexes and looking to emulate the widespread education and prosperity enjoyed by Western nations. That of course was up until the point where a MI6\CIA coup derailed that agenda that installed a brutal dictator.... a dictator whose reign of tyranny fueled support for the Islamic extremists who oppress the Iranian people today.

    iraq is another example of our intervention in the progression of moderate Islamic societies. Now don't get me wrong, Saddam was as brutal a ruler as they come, but the Iraqi society under his rule was a secular one where religion played no part in the affairs of government. A society where there was education for all who wanted it, a great system for the healthcare of the entire populace and a society where women were not only allowed to participate, but actively encouraged to do so. But we all know what happened to that society, we stuck our noses in and handed that country over to a Shia theocracy striking another blow to moderate Sunni Islam.

    And the same thing in Libya. Again, we have a Sunni Muslim overseeing a secular society replaced with a sectarian Shia leadership.... with the assistance of course from the nations so concerned about radical Islam. And one of the fall outs of this particular little endeavor has been the loosing of the Libya arsenals into the hands of those Shia radicals who, again with support from the West, are in the process of removing yet another moderate Islamic government in Syria.

    So yes, Islam can be construed as being very conservative across the board, but we must not ignore our own responsibility in standing in the way of moderate Sunni Muslims. And keep in mind that Islam trails Christianity by 700 yrs. I dare say that 700 yrs ago Christianity was anything but moderate and liberal, so I think that we just need to give them time to shed some of the negatives, and to stop helping the radicals at the expense of the moderates.
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  • Spizzzo... David H... 2013/05/30 09:11:46
    Spizzzo BN-0
    +1
    (Gee, I'm 'only' 4.5 months behind).

    Interesting points. Thanks. I'd only add that I've tended to doubt the ability of outside forces to stifle indigenous forces against the will of the People of a country. I've not researched this, nor can I support it well, but I've been very dubious of those who just "toss off" statements like, "Of course, we all know that Iran had the Shah because we put his family in power", or, "As we all know, the CIA toppled Allende in Chile." My attitude has been, "Well, maybe, but if so we and our agencies did better than they usually do."
  • David H... Spizzzo... 2013/06/01 09:20:15
    David Hussey
    +1
    Its quite certain for any outside interference to have any success it needs the cooperation of some internal cadre of supporters. And there are always people who will see an opportunity to advance their own lot in life, even if it comes at the expense of their fellow countrymen. But I do agree with you that at some point the actual will of the people will not be able to be suppressed. Even the most brutal of tyrannies in history have fallen, rarely from outside intervention, but more often from internal revolution.

    That said, I still cannot bring myself to support interventions. For one, they are never about the well being of the target nations people and usually result in little more than a change of leadership with little to no improvement for the people. Better to just leave nations to settle their own affairs, that way they can actually settle something instead of having a perpetual revolving door of brutal overlords.
  • Spizzzo... David H... 2013/06/02 10:11:52 (edited)
    Spizzzo BN-0
    +1
    I'm basically agreeing with your last paragraph. In fact, I was somewhat underselling the knowledge level of my support for that attitude by saying I've not researched it--that's true, but I've tended to rely on expert opinion I heard firsthand in, oh, about 1970, regarding the US intervention in Vietnam. That is, in back then in high school I went to hear E. O. Reischauer (a now historically obscure State Department official--but onetime Ambassador to Japan--who had a lot of international/Japanese experience in growing up and came to oppose the Vietnam war fairly early); who in a lecture I heard say (VERY firmly), "No indigenous political entity has ever been defeated by an external force when the indigenous entity is motivated by nationalism". That is, nationalism defeats outside force EVERY time. Seemed ridiculous at the time--has proven true almost every time (maybe even every time) since.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    Nowadays, his son is more famous (though not all that famous), as a commissioner overseeing our Social Security.
  • David H... Spizzzo... 2013/06/07 05:35:42
    David Hussey
    +1
    I would say that Reischauer was perfectly correct. While brute force may for a time overwhelm an indigenous political entity, its only a matter of time before the true will of a people will manifest itself. This has been shown repeatedly throughout history.
  • Spizzzo... David H... 2013/06/07 12:11:11 (edited)
    Spizzzo BN-0
    +1
    Agreed, though this fact is apparently hard to discern from within a nationalistic point of view--as, for example, it was a revelation to ME (even though I had doubts about Vietnam already at the time). Note he was not saying intervention/Vietnam was wrong--merely that it could not succeed. That feeds into my attitude that intervention is not necessarily morally wrong, but it may be stupid, practically.

    One added point (through EDIT), this denseness to "nationalism" as a political force is not necessarily so stupid as it may seem (and this was one of Reischauer's points), in that the modern "nation-state" is not that old, and the nationalism it engenders was not obvious to historians until, maybe, WWII or so. In fact, thinking about this now, I should look into this more now, post-Reischauer, as I can see a view now that would say that nationalism (as opposed to mere ethnicity-ism) has failed in a number of supposed "nation-states" invented by colonial/global powers (like most Middle Eastern countries and some Balkan states), where the expected nationalism failed to hold a number of countries together, devolving into smaller nation-states comprised of individual ethnicities.
  • David H... Spizzzo... 2013/06/07 23:49:45
    David Hussey
    +1
    I agree, intervention in and of itself is not inherently morally deficit in a philosophical sense, in fact it may even be to morally correct response. Unfortunately, interventions when they come always come for the wrong reasons, wrapped within some kind of pretense of noble endeavor. And this, perhaps more than any other reason, is why intervention rarely succeeds.


    Its true, and easily overlooked, that the modern nation-state is a relatively new social construct. With a few exceptions (China for one), such 'nations' simply did not exist until a few centuries ago. I think the growth of the 'nation-state' reflects the evolution of societies away from both tribalism and sectarianism. National governments today have in many ways simply displaced religious institutions in imposing rule over a people, and the growing mobility of people (which itself is a very modern development) has eroded the influence of tribalism.

    You've touched upon something that I think is being displayed perfectly in Afghanistan right now. A fabrication by Europeans, imposed upon a people whose tribal ties are far stronger than any sense of nationalism. We hear much talk of the 'porous' border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, but from the local perspective the 'border' is nothing but a line drawn by foreign...

    I agree, intervention in and of itself is not inherently morally deficit in a philosophical sense, in fact it may even be to morally correct response. Unfortunately, interventions when they come always come for the wrong reasons, wrapped within some kind of pretense of noble endeavor. And this, perhaps more than any other reason, is why intervention rarely succeeds.


    Its true, and easily overlooked, that the modern nation-state is a relatively new social construct. With a few exceptions (China for one), such 'nations' simply did not exist until a few centuries ago. I think the growth of the 'nation-state' reflects the evolution of societies away from both tribalism and sectarianism. National governments today have in many ways simply displaced religious institutions in imposing rule over a people, and the growing mobility of people (which itself is a very modern development) has eroded the influence of tribalism.

    You've touched upon something that I think is being displayed perfectly in Afghanistan right now. A fabrication by Europeans, imposed upon a people whose tribal ties are far stronger than any sense of nationalism. We hear much talk of the 'porous' border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, but from the local perspective the 'border' is nothing but a line drawn by foreigners right through the territory of the Pashtun people. And when we look around at other 'invented' states there is a pattern of drawing borders that incorporate prevailing ethnic tensions, its far easier to play colonial overlord when you can pit internal factions against one another.

    The dissolution of the Soviet Union, the break up of Yugoslavia, etc offer an excellent examples of the devolution you speak of
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  • Spizzzo... David H... 2013/06/08 11:27:17
    Spizzzo BN-0
    Yes, you've picked up on what I was talking about, precisely.

    Two things:

    Though most kernels of my ideas I readily admit are not original to me--one currently relevant one I think might be is the "moral/ethical" dimension of modern multi-modal "big brotherism" through technology as a replacement for older religious thought (like as preached on this question originally). That is, it seems to me that many fundamentalists (of all religions, like Christian, Muslim...which frankly compared to Christianity looks virtually 'all fundamentalist' to me) will claim that mankind is so totally evil on its own that only belief in an omniscient God constantly watching everything would hold mankind in check, morally--and therefore a reduction in belief in such a God releases the inherent evil in mankind. My additional thought regarding this fundamental flaw in thinking about people is that an attraction for the idea of Bush/Obama style total government surveillance is that such surveillance in a way replaces the former belief in "God surveillance"--and therefore tries to extend the idea that mankind is evil without a watcher its aware of holding it back through a sense of shame. Actually, I think there may be something to that core idea (though I think the "watcher" may/should be one's own mor...



    Yes, you've picked up on what I was talking about, precisely.

    Two things:

    Though most kernels of my ideas I readily admit are not original to me--one currently relevant one I think might be is the "moral/ethical" dimension of modern multi-modal "big brotherism" through technology as a replacement for older religious thought (like as preached on this question originally). That is, it seems to me that many fundamentalists (of all religions, like Christian, Muslim...which frankly compared to Christianity looks virtually 'all fundamentalist' to me) will claim that mankind is so totally evil on its own that only belief in an omniscient God constantly watching everything would hold mankind in check, morally--and therefore a reduction in belief in such a God releases the inherent evil in mankind. My additional thought regarding this fundamental flaw in thinking about people is that an attraction for the idea of Bush/Obama style total government surveillance is that such surveillance in a way replaces the former belief in "God surveillance"--and therefore tries to extend the idea that mankind is evil without a watcher its aware of holding it back through a sense of shame. Actually, I think there may be something to that core idea (though I think the "watcher" may/should be one's own moral sense ), but replacing the concept of God with an actual State is very troublesome to me--and is, for me, a deep indictment of the aims of that form of statism. Yes, what I just said is a speculative load of mushy crap...but I'm a psychologist, so waddaya expect from me?

    As to arbitrary geographic division by overseeing powers producing harmful borders--I "got" this concept (which you so nicely and concisely refer to for countries) way back when, I always thought, in part because I grew up in the St. Louis area (born on the Illinois side, grew up on the Missouri side--of the Mississippi)--which made it pretty obvious to me that the clear geographic division made no sense ethnically or politically. That is, in that region we were all "Midwestern river people", no matter which bank of the river we were on. Relatively speaking, the Missouri side was favored within its state as St. Louis was the largest city of the state (though KC was not far behind)--and favored in the state capital; while the eastern side of the river (particularly East St. Louis) was distant in size from Chicago and easily short-shifted by the state capital. It made me wonder how the world might be if peoples mattered over geography--like if political boundaries tried to cross geographical features at a 90 degree angle rather than paralleling them at 0 or 180 degrees. I haven't even thought through what this might mean for global things like AfPak/India, etc. ; but for small regions like STL, it would mean that the natural river terminus produced by the confluence of the Missouri and Mississippi rivers would have been under one political jurisdiction, and perhaps all of the Western US states that have a significant portion of their territory as parts of the Rockies (lets see...Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Montana...more) might have the clearly mountainous parts cut off and combined into one "mountain state" that could focus on "mountain issues".

    I like it.
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  • Spizzzo... Abdulla... 2013/06/08 10:51:24
    Spizzzo BN-0
    So? Since when does one human, Christian or not, have the right to speak for another human's beliefs, or for God's beliefs?
  • TerryAgee 2012/08/08 19:14:55
    TerryAgee
    I seem to be unable to select my answers to these questions. Why?
  • Foxhound BN0 2012/08/06 13:02:12 (edited)
    Foxhound BN0
    +1
    it's amazing how each new religion attempts to take the throne from the last, each claiming to know the last and final word of god, each claiming their book to be the ultimate authority on god, the only real god book. What scares me about Islam, peace be upon it, is the weird desire to be enslaved by strict rules like not eating things you like to eat and doing odd rituals. It's weird. It's creepy. Only a cancer wants to engulf everything around it into one big cancer, killing the host. There is room for people to just be themselves and be left alone, unmolested by religion's insane desire to turn us all into Stepford people.
  • TheR 2012/08/06 11:55:39 (edited)
    TheR
    +3
    You have to remember Jesus was born to his time in history, many things said reflect the olden times, the cultural infancy of their time. As time matures, and people reflect and became more intelligent and educated, we see if Jesus said something during his time, it would be as if a older man looking at his writings when he was a teenager. Also did Jesus know a Bible was being written, taking down for word everything he said? Certainly not, at least as far as the Bible contends. So how could Jesus say things to reflect the future generations, and for future generations to think Jesus sayings during his time, is the same during our current time? Also all writings in the Bible are different, according to the New Testament Books; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. ex: The author of Matthew claims differently than Mark, than Luke, and John. So to think all things to be said by Jesus by those authors can only be taken with a grain of salt. Indeed he may have never said.


    This can be a double edge sword, because people knowing this, will advocate it is OK to do evil, when it is not OK.



    We need to look more at how Jesus lived his life, and what he did, which were acts of kindness, miracles, and good will to his fellow Brethren.

    Jesus Today

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