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The Origin of Lucifer

chaoskitty123 2011/02/09 16:01:32
Related Topics: Religion, India, Mazda
As most people now know, the name Lucifer is Latin so it cannot be the name of the Devil as known to the ancient peoples of the Old Testament. Likewise, the New Testament is largely a Greek series of documents where we see Hell move to the forefront and Satan goes from being an angel (or angels) who seem to serve to tempt or test the faith of men to being a being of even greater power as the lord of lies and ruler of Hell. This change emerges from two distinct areas. The first is my own personal belief which many are beginning to consider in examining Christ. The Jews never accepted Jesus Christ as their messiah but we are told that the Magi had proclaimed him their messiah... the Magi being Persian priests of the Zoroastrian faith. In fact, following the conquest of the Middle East and Egypt by Alexander the Great, the Persians and Greeks had largely assimilated which may be the basis for the New Testament. If Christ were of the Zoroastrian faith at this time, he would believe in a faith where the creator God called Ahura Mazda had said "Let there be light" and when that light came into being, it created a shadow called Angra Mainyu which came to life as the opposite of everything Ahura Mazda was. The Zoroastrian faith was divided much like the Christian faith where Satan takes on the role of being the nemesis of God which the original Satan of the Old Testament actually wasn't. The Serpent, the Dragon and Satan himself were largely different entities all united as one within the New Testaments Satan.

Now we have the Greek influence with two gods that by the time of Christ had been merged as one... Eosphorus (the Morning Star) and Hesperos (the Evening Star) http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterEosphoros.html . In Latin, the name for this god was Lucifer and all the things attributed to Lucifer such as being a light bearer and son of the morning star are also attributes given to this god. The reason we do not know much about this god is that he would become reborn as something different... he would become the personification of a fusion of different concepts linking the Serpent from the Garden of Eden, Satan, Angra Manyu, Eosphorus, the Greek god Hades and even the concept of an evil dragon which was common across most of Europe at this time among the Gauls and Celts who believed in Ragnarok.

Lucifer is the embodiment of all evil and ruler over the dominion of Hell... he is the personification of the darkest of hates, lies and everything we consider to be sinful in nature.

Christianity is many things including paganism, but it is not something which simply came into being out of nothingness nor did it simply come into being because of Christ. The name Jesus itself never existed as the letter J didn't exist until the 14th century. His original name would have been Iesus which would be the Latin form of Iesous which in Greek has a dual meaning with the more humorous being "hey horse". This is believed to have come about because the Gentiles were neither Greek, Roman, Persian or Hebrew... they were either Gauls or Celts. The name Jesus may have come about much as the word Negro became Ni**er as they heard Christs name and spelled it in their language the way it sounded which may have been Ge Zeus or Hey Zeus. However it came to be, it is believed Christs true name was Yahshua or Joshua. His last name Christ is definately Greek and derives from Christos meaning messiah. The question then becomes what was the true name of Christ or did he actually exist.

If the name Lucifer can be determined as an amalgamation of different gods and concepts becoming a fusion... what if Christianity itself was the same? After all, the God's eventually became angels and demons in the Catholic faith and demigods / heroes became replaced by Saints. Even the Book of Revelations is often compared to Ragnarok and not a word of the New Testament was written during Christs lifetime... it was all written after Christ died.

Many Christians attack what they perceive to be pagan elements of their faith when it may be that without these pagan elements, there would be no Christian faith. Christianity has always seemed to be at odds with Judaism... maybe this is because it is misperceived that Christ was the Messiah of the Jews when he may have been the Messiah of the old Persian Zoroastrian faith and the Greeks who ruled the Persians. The Seleucid Empire was dying http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid_Empire and many were looking for salvation. The Zoroastrian faith was in decline, the Greek faith was in decline and many they ruled over were from other European peoples so that their beliefs and cultures fused together... and very possibly, Christianity has it's roots among the Seleucid Empire. Christ may have been raised to be a Messiah for a foreign faith as we are told they came from the East meaning the Seleucid Empire. We are even told that during the decades where Christ disappears that he could have gone as far east as India which at this time was also under Greek influences. The disciples could have found support for what they spoke about Christ because Christ had already been to these foreign lands and the reason we know nothing about him from these years is he did not have disciples during these travels who wrote his gospels. When we find him again in Judea as an adult near the end of his life, he seems well established and well known... but is treated like a foreigner and still rejected as a Jewish Messiah.

Here is one final thought. The Antichrist is supposed to be a false messiah who will unite the worlds religions. Within the Catholic faith, there is a Pope and an Antipope http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope recorded in history. An Antipope is someone who opposes the duly elected Pope and is not necessarily evil or wrong, they are people supported by a large number of Cardinals and religious factions who do not support the duly elected Pope. In fact, the current Pope has fallen into disfavor with many Catholics and one way to oppose him would be to throw support behind an Antipope.

If you look at the Papacy of Boniface VII http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope_Boniface_VII you get an idea of this concept as the Antichrist would not be like Damien in the Omen movies, he would be a man of religious faith accepted as a Christ like figure and unite the worlds religions. This provides insight into Christ that maybe he was a uniter of world religions having united Greek, Gallic, Celtic, Nordic, Zoroastrian, Jewish and possibly even some Hindu elements. Christ is accepted in the Hindu faith and in Islam, Christ is believed in as more than just a prophet as Muhammed does state Christ will return just as Christians believe. In the modern day, one only needs to look at the power of televangelists to have millions of people faithfully following them to determine what an Antichrist is as they would not need to claim to be Christ to become Christ like or take the place of Christ. This is why many view the Pope as the Antichrist and it's why so many leading priests and preachers of the word prove to be false prophets... because they are taking the place of Christ on Earth to their followers. Look at men like Jimmy Swaggert and you see what I am describing as even after he fell from grace, he retained hundreds of thousands of followers... then he got caught again due to his arrogance and even now still has tens of thousands of followers even if he's lost most of his supporters. This goes beyond just being a false prophet s his followers see Swaggert as being semi divine and the voice of Christ on Earth... thus, he is an Antichrist.

The belief that Napoleon and Hitler were Antichrists is ridiculous and has no foundations for which we are told that the term Antichrist would apply in a biblical sense.

When you then examine Lucifer in this context, it would seem that Christianity began as an effort to merge the worlds religions into one... it succeeded only in creating a new religious faith that came to dominate Europe. The inherent flaws within the faith are not flaws within the faith itself... but of secular leaders who used the faith for their own ends and false prophets playing the role of shepherds to the blind sheep who followed them.

What Atheists often see as the long brutal history of Christianity is actually Secular in nature as kings and emperors only feigned adherence to the faith they used as a weapon to control the general populace they ruled. It also aided them in gaining control over a conquered people of the same faith. From Constantine the Great to modern Presidents and Prime Ministers, religious faith is a means for gaining political support when if those supporting them actually knew what these leaders believed... they might better understand that they are being manipulated. But if not for men like Constantine the Great, the Christian faith would not have been what it became and for all the wrongs attributed to it... even greater wrongs have been committed by secular leaders as feigning support for religion does not mean they were religious men.

The ultimate lesson to be learned about Lucifer is that not everything is what it seems and even the Lord of Lies is not what we think he is... maybe Christianity isn't either and that's the reason there is so much confusion. Maybe it's in asking questions like how can the devils name be Lucifer when the Latin language didn't even exist when Lucifer fell from Heaven. Answering such a simple question reveals great truths while ignoring it only allows ignorance to continue being perpetuated.

Just food for thought.



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  • Lady Whitewolf 2011/02/09 19:03:02
    Lady Whitewolf
    +4
    Oh, c'mon PEOPLE!!

    everyone with half a logical mind knows that "lucifer" is nothing more than a christian RIPOFF of the The Horned God from the Pagan / Wiccan Path. The catholic church INVENTED "lucifer" to SCARE people into converting and submission.

    It's a proven fact that 99.9% of "christian" holidays are ripoffs of the already-established PAGAN holidays.

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  • HL Mencken 2011/02/11 23:48:37
    HL Mencken
    Mr. Diety and "Lucy" tour Hell

  • 8mariedawn6 2011/02/10 05:42:23
    8mariedawn6
    Lucifer where do you see that name in the Bible?
  • seathanaich 2011/02/09 19:40:45
    seathanaich
    +1
    Some interesting points, and some I'd disagree with.

    I've never cared much for the word "pagan". It's only really ever seemed a word-trick to me, used by Christians to pretend their pile of stuff is somehow different than everyone else's pile of stuff.
  • Lady Whitewolf 2011/02/09 19:03:02
    Lady Whitewolf
    +4
    Oh, c'mon PEOPLE!!

    everyone with half a logical mind knows that "lucifer" is nothing more than a christian RIPOFF of the The Horned God from the Pagan / Wiccan Path. The catholic church INVENTED "lucifer" to SCARE people into converting and submission.

    It's a proven fact that 99.9% of "christian" holidays are ripoffs of the already-established PAGAN holidays.
  • Kat Lady Wh... 2011/02/09 22:16:05
    Kat
    +2
    Very nicely said :)!! A further truth :)
  • Lady Wh... Kat 2011/02/09 23:23:53
    Lady Whitewolf
    +1
    THANKIES!
  • chaoski... Lady Wh... 2011/02/09 23:46:14
    chaoskitty123
    +1
    All pagan means is "country dweller" in Latin and like many words, they were borrowed. How is it that the word barbarian is known to the Chinese and the Romans with two different origins given for it... answer, they borrowed it or others came along afterward who "superimposed" the word on them. This is not a modern word as pagan is as foreign and wrong in how modern so called Pagans use it as Christians use it.

    The Horned God you speak of didn't even exist until the 19th century in regard to modern usage. The god Cernunnos is a god with an "assumed" meaning applied to him as almost all neopaganism is a modern invention which archaeologists are tearing apart discovery by discovery. The truth is... no one knows what the meaning of the horned God is and no, they did not steal the horned god for Lucifers identity as he was based almost entirely on the satyr.

    While I will address Christians and a search for truth, Wiccans and Neopagans are even more lost because they are reinventing everything as they go and almost none of it has anything to do with the original peoples or their beliefs.

    Lucifer was taken from the name of a Greek god and there was no Lucifer in the time of the ancient Jews and like all religions, Christianity did borrow from other peoples and their beliefs. The genera...









    All pagan means is "country dweller" in Latin and like many words, they were borrowed. How is it that the word barbarian is known to the Chinese and the Romans with two different origins given for it... answer, they borrowed it or others came along afterward who "superimposed" the word on them. This is not a modern word as pagan is as foreign and wrong in how modern so called Pagans use it as Christians use it.

    The Horned God you speak of didn't even exist until the 19th century in regard to modern usage. The god Cernunnos is a god with an "assumed" meaning applied to him as almost all neopaganism is a modern invention which archaeologists are tearing apart discovery by discovery. The truth is... no one knows what the meaning of the horned God is and no, they did not steal the horned god for Lucifers identity as he was based almost entirely on the satyr.

    While I will address Christians and a search for truth, Wiccans and Neopagans are even more lost because they are reinventing everything as they go and almost none of it has anything to do with the original peoples or their beliefs.

    Lucifer was taken from the name of a Greek god and there was no Lucifer in the time of the ancient Jews and like all religions, Christianity did borrow from other peoples and their beliefs. The general reason wasn't what you think as men like the Roman Emperors had no qualms butchering entire countrysides... but ruling a country filled with corpses gains you nothing when you need slaves and people to rule over so that absorbing their religious beliefs to win them over and convert them was the easiest way to do this. Even the burning times were blown out of proportion with people claiming millions of people were killed when only around 40,000 can be proven and the people claiming millions have never provided any proof to back up their claims. In fact, some of their numbers would have wiped out entire countries.

    Christians did nothing that all religions do not do. Even the gods the Neopagans and Wiccans worship are largely borrowed from other peoples or survived from peoples they conquered before them.

    The Catholic Church did not invent Lucifer as Lucifer and the New Testament actually predates the Catholic Church.

    What do you know about the Persians of this time period?

    Using one of your stat's, almost 99.9% of all the people I ask that question of know nothing about the Persian people of this time period and yet... this is where Christ comes from according to the Bible as his parents came from there. Go look it up and suddenly, a lot of what you just said actually is more ignorant than what you assume of the Christians.

    Not bashing you to be mean but if you are going to attack them with ignorance then I'll respond the same way to you as I would to them. Read up on the Seleucid Empire and Zoroastrianism... read up on the gods I mention as the origin for Lucifer... make your responses informative instead of just sounding like you're full of hate for Christians.
    (more)
  • 8maried... Lady Wh... 2011/02/10 05:41:49
    8mariedawn6
    +1
    well at least we admit that pagans call satan a god( Horned God) Interesting!
  • Kat 2011/02/09 16:59:40
    Kat
    +2
    You know. In a nutshell, Jesus was a mere man. He was a wonderful, loving, outreaching, caring man. But he was also the rightful king well hidden. He was a decendent of Kind David, the child the romans seeked to kill when they went on a killing spree, he was also a decendant for the great high priest Aaron. Jesus was royal blood and high priest blood. He was being nurtured by the people who knew who he was, but kept his secret to keep him alive. His mouth unfortunately got him killed. Lucifer is the name of a God in old Celtic and Scottich religion. Which people call today, pagans or wiccans. A god of the warriors, of the land, and of peace for mankind, but like all gods, has a dark evil side as well, for the destruction of man, the demise of societies, and to take care of ones enemies at a price. There is much for mankind to learn if they are willing to get out of the box created for them and see it. In my opinion, we need only to look around in our enviroment. Not at the people, the buildings or the paved roads or cars, but at the life that surrounds us that we barely take notice to anymore. There you will find your truths and will discover the deciets that were built to hide these truths. Not in books that MAN wrote and decided there was some truth to.
  • Lady Wh... Kat 2011/02/09 19:03:56
    Lady Whitewolf
    +1
    WELL SAID!
  • Kat Lady Wh... 2011/02/09 22:14:41
    Kat
    +1
    Thank you Lady :).
  • Lady Wh... Kat 2011/02/09 23:24:30
    Lady Whitewolf
    +1
    Any time!
  • chaoski... Kat 2011/02/10 00:26:23
    chaoskitty123
    Actually... you will not.

    The modern world teaches much falsehood about the past. Modern Pagans, Neopagans and Wiccans claim they are trying to reinvent or rediscover the past and yet, they're generally wrong about everything. The vast majority of women who were killed as witches weren't witches and they never took part in any masses or ceremonies. They were simple healers because it fell on those left in the village when the men were out hunting or fighting so that they were the natural choice until the profession of medicine came into being where men made a career from it... and they wanted to make money doing it which is hard to compete against when women will do the same things for free or the price of a meal. Some of the things I see Wiccans doing I just hold my head down because the ceremonies and so forth actually did not happen and are more Hollywood than reality.

    It's like Lady Whitewolf above talking about stealing the Horned God to scare people with... even the Romans and Greeks knew almost nothing about the Horned Gods as there were actually more than one with Cernunnos being the best known. The Romans and Greeks already had satyr's and other horned gods of their own and the horned gods of the west largely had Stag horns where the ones in the East had bulls horns.....





























    Actually... you will not.

    The modern world teaches much falsehood about the past. Modern Pagans, Neopagans and Wiccans claim they are trying to reinvent or rediscover the past and yet, they're generally wrong about everything. The vast majority of women who were killed as witches weren't witches and they never took part in any masses or ceremonies. They were simple healers because it fell on those left in the village when the men were out hunting or fighting so that they were the natural choice until the profession of medicine came into being where men made a career from it... and they wanted to make money doing it which is hard to compete against when women will do the same things for free or the price of a meal. Some of the things I see Wiccans doing I just hold my head down because the ceremonies and so forth actually did not happen and are more Hollywood than reality.

    It's like Lady Whitewolf above talking about stealing the Horned God to scare people with... even the Romans and Greeks knew almost nothing about the Horned Gods as there were actually more than one with Cernunnos being the best known. The Romans and Greeks already had satyr's and other horned gods of their own and the horned gods of the west largely had Stag horns where the ones in the East had bulls horns... and the Devil has bulls horns.

    I used to belong to a pagan website and did a ton of research disproving much of what they believed and putting them in positions where they were left no choice but to put up or shut up to back up their beliefs... they almost always shut up because they actually have almost nothing to back up anything they claim.

    There is a wealth of information though left to us by the Romans and others to give us a better understanding and almost all of it is ignored by modern pagans and wiccans which is why I treat them as being ignorant as well.

    I love history and I love heritage... but I hate living a lie and some Wiccans literally only need green face paint to make the picture complete. While intriguing, skyclad ceremonies and so forth really cannot be proven and what all these people need to do is set all the pretenses aside and just find something new. Nothing wrong with finding or developing a new faith.

    But everywhere I look, the information is actually there but everyone rejects or cherry picks it.

    Look at the information I provided about the origin of Lucifer and Christian beliefs... did I do that to prove they are ignorant? No, I did it to get the knowledge out there for greater understanding. Understanding Kat is different than just trying to attack or tear people down... understanding is what brings people together unless ignorance blinds them to the truth.

    I have numerous friends who are pagans, wiccans and even some who are into tribalism. Very few of them misunderstand me because they know if they need research, I can generally find what they need. Like my friend Kurt tells people, his girlfriend almost had him pierce the lobe of his ears gouging them convincing him it was hip and harmless until he saw another friend get in a fight where his lobes were torn because of this and he almost died from blood poisoning. Turns out, the modern reason for doing this is all visual but the ancient peoples who did this used it to define their place within the tribe.

    Most of these people have no understanding of the ancient ways. I have nothing against pagans, wiccans and so forth... I do when they claim it reconnects them to their past when for all they know what they're doing could be graven insults to our ancestors because they don't understand what they are doing.

    Christians became ignorant of their beliefs largely because until King James, they weren't even allowed to own a copy of the Bible as it was a capital offense for anyone other than clergy to own them... they were burned at the stake alongside of witches. That's something most modern Christians do not know.

    You will find that by studying the past and trying to learn the truth about it, you will win more Christians over to your way of thinking and to take a more passive direction in their faith. It's the not knowing that causes the problem.

    Question for you to prove a point...

    Genesis Ch 1 v 20 God tells life from the waters to come forth onto the land and to fill the skies... isn't that what evolution tells us happened? How could an ancient peoples like that even have the concept of sea life becoming land life?

    I didn't post the topic to tear Christians down... I posted it to educate and inform to create greater understanding which is something most people, whatever their beliefs, need to do more of.

    Only in the modern age has mankind become so destructive as we are today it is thought. The Native Americans are nature lovers we have been told. When they arrived in the Southwest, much of it was forested, they cut all the trees down before the first white man arrived and then had to eat their own people to survive. When they arrived, numerous species of life became extinct long before the white man arrived. Perceptions of the Maya had them as intelligent peace loving nature lovers... then we learned the truth that they were brutal savages who killed millions of their people, destroyed their environment and disappeared. While many point to these people and say religion made them do it... almost all religion has both good and evil no different than any of us whether or not we go to church. Atheists are out there destroying the environment and raping the land right alongside Christians... and if you look around, you'll find Pagans, Neopagans and Wiccans right there with them.

    It's not being Christian that causes destruction as people have the free will to choose their path as the ancient Tibetans proved... but very very few people do this because the one thing they lack is "understanding". Look around the world and love it all you want... someone else looks around and hates the world while someone else takes a more intelligent approach understanding the good and the bad to try finding the best way for all people to get along.

    We don't even know if Christ was a descendant of King David except that the Bible tells us this... and none of the Bible was written when he was alive so if the prophets changed things or got it wrong, who would there be to correct them?
    (more)
  • Captain Sticky 2011/02/09 16:46:32
    Captain Sticky
    +1
    VERY well thought out and said. I had to check your profile to see if these were actually your own words. I'm impressed, and that's a rare occurrence indeed.

    ". but of secular leaders who used the faith for their own ends and false prophets playing the role of shepherds to the blind sheep who followed them." That's what organized religion is all about in a nutshell. I've found that those that profess to be holy are usually the least "holy". Standards exist for others.

    As for the Devil, that creation was truly brilliant. An actual opposite to God. Something to rally folks to battle. A common enemy, like Hitler's Jews. And one helluva excuse for things that go wrong.

    We're an odd but interesting species; the only species that feels it's right to impose one's standards on others. What fools we mortals be.


    odd interesting species species feels impose standards fools mortals the devil made me do it flip wilson
  • chaoski... Captain... 2011/02/10 01:01:42
    chaoskitty123
    But the concept of the devil as in the Zoroastrian faith is even simpler because Ahura Mazda is a creator god so when he said "Let there be light", logic follows that if he casts a shadow that it would come to life and be his opposite. In their faith, the creator Ahura Mazda was a good god and Angra Mainyu was an evil god because they were opposites. Only in the New Testament do you see Satan taking on this powerful adversarial role as the Jews tell us that the Satan of the Old Testament was only another angel and there may have been many of them.

    All animals impose themselves within a clan or tribal structure... why do you think you see wolves fighting for dominance, deer fighting with their horns and so forth. We often see where the group leader is attacked, but every group has it's hierarchy. Humans are no different and it's been proven time after time that if you give a good person a taste of power, it will corrupt them as very few people do not abuse, manipulate or try to control others. So we're actually no different... except that we abandoned the tribal structure and everyone somehow came to believe no one has the right to make them do what they don't want to do meeting with an opposing force demanding conformity because too many chiefs and not enough indians doesn't t...







    But the concept of the devil as in the Zoroastrian faith is even simpler because Ahura Mazda is a creator god so when he said "Let there be light", logic follows that if he casts a shadow that it would come to life and be his opposite. In their faith, the creator Ahura Mazda was a good god and Angra Mainyu was an evil god because they were opposites. Only in the New Testament do you see Satan taking on this powerful adversarial role as the Jews tell us that the Satan of the Old Testament was only another angel and there may have been many of them.

    All animals impose themselves within a clan or tribal structure... why do you think you see wolves fighting for dominance, deer fighting with their horns and so forth. We often see where the group leader is attacked, but every group has it's hierarchy. Humans are no different and it's been proven time after time that if you give a good person a taste of power, it will corrupt them as very few people do not abuse, manipulate or try to control others. So we're actually no different... except that we abandoned the tribal structure and everyone somehow came to believe no one has the right to make them do what they don't want to do meeting with an opposing force demanding conformity because too many chiefs and not enough indians doesn't tend to do very well unless you want to live in a cave totally removing yourself from society.

    I always write my own stuff unless I include a link where I tell people I got the info from.

    I don't expect many Christians to respond to this... I do expect a lot of non Christians to respond not taking the time to understand that this topic is to inform and educate, not to attack Christians with. Christians need to learn more about their history and of late, I've been learning about the Seleucid Empire where it suddenly dawned on me that this was the right time period for Christ, his parents came from here, the Greeks still ruled and the Zoroastrian faith was in decline... it always amazes me when I get hit in the face with something this obvious and start asking why no one else seems to notice.

    I'm sure I insulted a couple of people who replied after you as they seem to be more new age wiccan types. I admire a lot of what they are trying to do as much was taken from ancient peoples. However, most know almost nothing about the past and most adhering to these practices are doing it in the belief they are rediscovering things lost to the past... kinda like the Druids at Stonehenge which we now know had nothing to do with them and the surrounding area has been excavated revealing a lot of archaeology no one even imagined until recently. They found settlements, cemeteries, a woodhenge, a vast amount of debris like pottery, weapons and even other permanents buildings across the entire area where before they had thought the land was flat... then someone got the idea to dig outside the henge itself and found a virtual city around the thing and nothing about the Druids ever had anything to do with it until more modern times and Neopaganism. All these people making up the purpose they felt Stonehenge was used for were making it all up and basically got it all wrong.

    That's why I tell them, cut the ties with the past and claim no links with it. Try to find new meaning and a new way in the world now. You don not need swords, you do not need horned gods and you do not even need an Earth Mother... in fact, it's most likely the past holding us back from advancing into the future when we now have the power to leave this world and to venture to other worlds. Would any of our beliefs survive such a journey? Likely not... and maybe, just maybe that's the real reason we haven't put a man on Mars when we had the technology to do it over twenty years ago... we're afraid that everything we think we know will be proven false once we're standing on an alien world.
    (more)
  • Captain... chaoski... 2011/02/10 03:55:19
    Captain Sticky
    Agreed. But I've chosen to stick with the basics with regard to God. Mother Earth works for me as it makes sense. Anything beyond that is for our convenience or an attempt at control. I merely acknowledge the evidence of a Creator and give thanks to it. Anything else is pap.

    I do what they did:


    mother earth works convenience attempt acknowledge evidence creator pap

    And that makes me Pagan.
  • Katheri... chaoski... 2013/05/20 18:48:51 (edited)
    Katherine Elizabeth
    +2
    Thank you sirs, Captain and Chaos, for this bystander's enjoyment of an engaging topical discussion, flush with applied logic and charismatic critique.
    ;)

    AND YE SHALL BE AS LOLZ.

    And I say unto the haters:

    ;) Plato's Cave... it's a quantum donut, folks. Just live with it. FOR NOW. HAR DI HAR.

    Possibly.

    ;)))))) who cares how long this thread's been here.

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