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Should "under God" be taken out of the Pledge of Allegiance?

Incognito 2012/06/20 19:11:13
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Church and state should remain separate. If church becomes part of government, what would the official religion be? Catholicism? Baptists? Muslim?
This country was founded by enlightened men, some of who were atheists, most notably Benjamin Franklin. It is a cornerstone of our democracy. Church and state should remain separate.
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  • Rust 2012/10/07 21:56:16 (edited)
  • Haitham abu elsoud 2012/07/03 04:14:51
    Yes. Religion is strictly a private matter.
    Haitham abu elsoud
    Religion is strictly a private matter.
  • ehrhornp 2012/06/24 03:11:10
    Yes. Religion is strictly a private matter.
    ehrhornp
    Under God was inserted as a knee jerk reaction to communism. Kinda stupid when you come right down to it. If one believes, one should believe that the entire earth is under God. I mean the old soviet union had some of the most committed christians around. Look at the prior Pope. To imply that only America is under God is just idiotic.
  • Yes. Religion is strictly a private matter.
    Pixie·ŸŸMzAwesome♠ƤĦĂĔŢ♠
    That being said I think there are much much more important things to worry about then this.
  • ♥SocialOutcastshavemorefun♥ 2012/06/21 18:15:29
    Yes. Religion is strictly a private matter.
    ♥SocialOutcastshavemorefun♥
    Considering as "under God" wasn't there in the first place....
  • ☥☽✪☾DAW ☽✪☾ 2012/06/21 17:59:01
    Yes. Religion is strictly a private matter.
    ☥☽✪☾DAW ☽✪☾
    our Founding Fathers were Deists , Freemasons , Agnostics , Athiests , I believe one was Jewish and a Christians

    They wanted to Create A Country that has Freedom of Religion and From Religion and Separation of church and state Something all the founding fathers Agreed on was very important that Government and Church must be kept Separated
  • nverumind 2012/06/21 17:52:22
    No. Christianity is what America needs.
    nverumind
    It says Under God, so if your God is not the christian God why cant you just incorporate whatever God you follow?
    or if you dont follow one. Dont SAY "Under God"
  • Tom 2012/06/21 16:51:39
    No. Christianity is what America needs.
    Tom
    +2
    GOD, GUNS, and GUTS is What Made America. We Have to Keep All Three to Survive.
  • bags the Indigenous Guru 2012/06/20 22:17:01
    Yes. Religion is strictly a private matter.
    bags the Indigenous Guru
    It wasn't part of the Pledge when I learned it. It wasn't added until 1954 when the Catholics were pushing for the 'Christianization' of America. Buddhists, Hindus, Seiks, and Muslims are Americans too.
  • stevegt... bags th... 2012/06/21 14:41:27 (edited)
    stevegtexas@aol.com
    +1
    ive kind of changed my opinion somewhat......maybe theres a collection of spirits working together to better the lives of humanity......perhaps the loudest voice gets its way eh? or........the "still small voice".BIBLE. (and a child shall lead them?) BIBLE. Strongs exhaustive concordance of the bible.
    i thought all those other groups also believe in god or gods? (spiritual dimensions?)
  • bags th... stevegt... 2012/06/21 14:45:36
    bags the Indigenous Guru
    Some do believe in a monotheistic deity. Others do not. Under God has no relative meaning to any non-Abrahamic religion. By adding it, we turn it into something aimed towards only one group in the Larger mass of the American people. And, I personally feel that is wrong. I learned the pledge BEFORE it was added, and I've never been pleased with it since. Even as a child I felt that way.
  • ☥☽✪☾DAW... bags th... 2012/06/21 18:00:14
    ☥☽✪☾DAW ☽✪☾
    +1
    nowhere in the Constitution does it mention a god. Or does it?

    Fear not my fellow Pagans. Indeed it does! Within Amendment XX, you will find the word "January" which comes from the Latin Janus which refers to our God Janus, the Roman god of doors and gateways. Sunday (mentioned in Article 1, Sec.7) comes from the word Sunne which refers to the Saxon Sun god. March (see Amendment XII), comes from the Latin, Martius, and refers to our Pagan God Mars.
  • stevegt... bags th... 2012/10/09 21:16:24
    stevegtexas@aol.com
    ive kind of changed my opinion somewhat......maybe theres a collection of spirits working together to better the lives of humanity......perhaps the loudest voice gets its way eh? or........the "still small voice".BIBLE. (and a child shall lead them?) BIBLE. Strongs exhaustive concordance of the bible.
  • bags th... stevegt... 2012/10/09 23:02:50
    bags the Indigenous Guru
    To be honest, though raised with the Bible, it's not the sacred text that resonated with me. I am not an adherent of any particular religion, nor do I take any religious text literally, usually it would seem to do so would violate the message itself. Nor do I feel the need for any intermediary between me and that which made me. And the loudest voice now, clamoring for control , is Christianity - just as it was when the Pledge was changed in the 50's.
  • nverumind bags th... 2012/06/21 17:49:55
    nverumind
    although christians and catholics started using the edited phrase in the POA they didnt push for it alone. Louis Bowman was the first to incorporate "under God" to the Pledge. The National Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution gave him an Award of Merit as the originator of this idea. In 1948 on Lincoln's Birthday, he led the Society with the Pledge adding the phrase "under God." He stated that the words came from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. "that the nation shall, under God, have a new birth of freedom."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
  • bags th... nverumind 2012/06/21 18:09:13
    bags the Indigenous Guru
    Fine, be that as it may it doesn't alter my initial point, does it.
  • nverumind bags th... 2012/06/21 18:12:04
    nverumind
    +1
    oh, .. dont take offense, just stating what i knew on the matter.
    We disagree on the topic, but not trying to attack your opinion in any way.
    Thanks.
  • bags th... nverumind 2012/06/21 18:23:44
    bags the Indigenous Guru
    +1
    Have a good day! :)
  • nverumind bags th... 2012/06/21 18:25:11
    nverumind
    +1
    You too. :D
  • Sew 2012/06/20 20:26:51
    Yes. Religion is strictly a private matter.
    Sew
    +1
    The inclusion of the words is exclusionary to those without belief in God or those who believe in a different God. The original pledge did not contain these words and it was written by a Christian. America is a single nation made from many parts and we should represent that in our pledge and government. Since it's just not reasonable to tr and put every faith into the pledge the best thing is to just omit if from the pledge. No reason an individual can't add it to their pledge or oath of office or service or something personally.
  • Radical Ed 2012/06/20 19:41:42
    Yes. Religion is strictly a private matter.
    Radical Ed
    +1
    which god? how many gods? are we talking about a goddess here?
  • stevegt... Radical Ed 2012/10/09 21:16:57
    stevegtexas@aol.com
    ive kind of changed my opinion somewhat......maybe theres a collection of spirits working together to better the lives of humanity......perhaps the loudest voice gets its way eh? or........the "still small voice".BIBLE. (and a child shall lead them?) BIBLE. Strongs exhaustive concordance of the bible.
  • Cuppajo 2012/06/20 19:28:14
    No. Christianity is what America needs.
    Cuppajo
    +1
    This country was founded on Christian principles. Our Constitution mentions and cedes authority to God.

    No. "Under God" should not be taken out of the Pledge of Allegiance. Those that don't wish to say that, aren't forced to do so.
  • Sew Cuppajo 2012/06/20 20:33:56
    Sew
    Where in our Constitution does it cede authority to God? This country was not founded on Christian principles. It was founded on principles of democracy which is not in anyway a principle of the Christian religion. The Revolution was fought due to what was seen as an injustice in rulership, we had no say in the laws of England but were bound to them all the same. Interestingly most people in America at that time were irrelgious and one of the largest critics of the Constitution was the established churchs because it DID NOT cede authority to "God" a was noticably secular.
  • Cuppajo Sew 2012/06/20 20:40:51
    Cuppajo
    +1
    Pardon me, the Declaration of Independence.

    “When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.” Who is responsible for “the laws of nature” but God—certainly not man nor nature itself? From the “laws of nature” sprang an awareness of natural law (sometimes called common sense), understood by early philosophers to be a source of higher law that never changes. This was best explained by Cicero, a Roman politician, as early as the 1st Century B. C. —even predating the existence of Christianity when he wrote: “Nor may any other law override it, nor may it be repealed as a whole or in part… Nor is it one thing at Rome and another at Athens, one thing today and another tomorrow, but one eternal and unalterable law, that binds all nations forever.” Of “Nature’s God,” the second reference to deity is, of course, more explicit and needs no explanation.

    The third reference to God is the word “creator” found in the second paragraph. “We hold...












    Pardon me, the Declaration of Independence.

    “When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.” Who is responsible for “the laws of nature” but God—certainly not man nor nature itself? From the “laws of nature” sprang an awareness of natural law (sometimes called common sense), understood by early philosophers to be a source of higher law that never changes. This was best explained by Cicero, a Roman politician, as early as the 1st Century B. C. —even predating the existence of Christianity when he wrote: “Nor may any other law override it, nor may it be repealed as a whole or in part… Nor is it one thing at Rome and another at Athens, one thing today and another tomorrow, but one eternal and unalterable law, that binds all nations forever.” Of “Nature’s God,” the second reference to deity is, of course, more explicit and needs no explanation.

    The third reference to God is the word “creator” found in the second paragraph. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” This boldly identified our base for at least three unalienable rights as God, and the Founders identified this truth as self-evident. Any person endowed with common sense or reason would/could come to this conclusion.

    So passionate were they with respect to these three “God-given rights” that such was identified as the purpose of government. “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…”

    Moreover, their right of revolution hinged upon the denial of these “God-given rights.” “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes… But when a long train of abuses and usurpations… evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government and to provide new Guards for their future security.” Once again, an appeal to natural law, which emanates from God, was noted and the loss of which always justifies revolution.

    The fourth and fifth references to God are found in the last paragraph. The rightness of our cause was left to God as judge. “We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown…”

    The fifth and last reference to God asks for his divine protection in our revolutionary course of action. “And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.”
    There was no dissent noted with respect to these references to God and their placement or emphasis in this document by any of the participants then, nor should there be now.

    Dr. Harold Pease is an expert on the United States Constitution. He has dedicated his career to studying the writings of the Founding Fathers and applying that knowledge to current events. He has taught history and political science from this perspective for over 25 years at Taft College

    Source: http://www.libertyunderfire.o...
    (more)
  • Sew Cuppajo 2012/06/20 22:00:12
    Sew
    The Declearation of Indpendence is just that. A declearation. While important it is not the legal document of this nation nor does it establish a government for this nation. That would be the Constitution, which does not cede authority to God. Our country's laws are not derived from the DoI. When you go to court you don't use the DoI to cite your right to free speech.

    "Who is responsible for “the laws of nature” but God—certainly not man nor nature itself?" This works from the assumption that God is actually real, and that it is the particular god, goddess or spirit you worship. Since you or no one can prove that their deity is real the entire premise of this counter is flawed. Just saying God exist and pointing to natures' laws which can be perfectly explained without a deity(using Occam's Razor) is not somehow proof of said deity's existence. Saying it is so does not make it so. Which makes you next feeble counter of saying "Once again, an appeal to natural law, which emanates from God,...." fundamentally flawed as it's based off an assumption made without proof itself.

    The Constitution says "their Creator" specifically. It does not say "the Creator". This means that the individual decides who "their" creator is. It's entirely subjective and does not denote the Christian...



    The Declearation of Indpendence is just that. A declearation. While important it is not the legal document of this nation nor does it establish a government for this nation. That would be the Constitution, which does not cede authority to God. Our country's laws are not derived from the DoI. When you go to court you don't use the DoI to cite your right to free speech.

    "Who is responsible for “the laws of nature” but God—certainly not man nor nature itself?" This works from the assumption that God is actually real, and that it is the particular god, goddess or spirit you worship. Since you or no one can prove that their deity is real the entire premise of this counter is flawed. Just saying God exist and pointing to natures' laws which can be perfectly explained without a deity(using Occam's Razor) is not somehow proof of said deity's existence. Saying it is so does not make it so. Which makes you next feeble counter of saying "Once again, an appeal to natural law, which emanates from God,...." fundamentally flawed as it's based off an assumption made without proof itself.

    The Constitution says "their Creator" specifically. It does not say "the Creator". This means that the individual decides who "their" creator is. It's entirely subjective and does not denote the Christian God.

    The Delcearation holds no legal power nor is it the foundation of our nation's government. Which is the entire base of your arguement. But I do have a document from our government that might interest you.

    Article 11. of the Treaty of Tripoli states "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries" This Treaty was signed by the official Congress of our country and the second President John Adams who was a member of the rebellion.
    (more)
  • Cuppajo Sew 2012/06/20 23:34:11
  • Sew Cuppajo 2012/06/21 02:25:43
    Sew
    So only those who post the topic can respond to comments on it? You are the one that posted your thoughts on here for everyone to see. If you don't like having to defend you beliefs and/or opinions then I'd suggest you either keep them to yourself or simply block all those who dare to disagree with you.
  • Cuppajo Sew 2012/06/21 13:51:56
    Cuppajo
    +1
    And if you are insistent upon sticking your nose into conversations that don't concern you, I suggest you really accept that not everyone wants to hear your opinion.

    For example, If I want your opinion, like the poster asked for MINE; I'll ASK YOU FOR IT.
  • ☥☽✪☾DAW... Sew 2012/06/21 17:59:58
    ☥☽✪☾DAW ☽✪☾
    nowhere in the Constitution does it mention a god. Or does it?

    Fear not my fellow Pagans. Indeed it does! Within Amendment XX, you will find the word "January" which comes from the Latin Janus which refers to our God Janus, the Roman god of doors and gateways. Sunday (mentioned in Article 1, Sec.7) comes from the word Sunne which refers to the Saxon Sun god. March (see Amendment XII), comes from the Latin, Martius, and refers to our Pagan God Mars.
  • ☥☽✪☾DAW... Sew 2012/06/21 17:55:20
    ☥☽✪☾DAW ☽✪☾
    Declaration of Independence:
    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's GOD entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are CREATED equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    - Declaration of Independence
    laws of nature Thats a Pagan Saying that things come in 3's
    Nature's God the Declaration of independence does not mention which God by name
    but says Creator instead

    When one defines oneself as Pagan, it means she or he follows an earth or nature religion, one that sees the divine manifest in all creation. The cycles of nature are our holy days, the earth is our temple, its plants and creatures our partners and teachers. We worship a deity that is both male and female, a mother Goddess and father God, who together created all that is, was, or will be. We respect life, cherish the free will of sentient beings, and accept the sacredness of all creation
  • ☥☽✪☾DAW... Sew 2012/06/21 17:55:51
    ☥☽✪☾DAW ☽✪☾
    Want to read something that will blow your mind
    Read this

    http://www.sodahead.com/unite...
  • Sew ☥☽✪☾DAW... 2012/06/24 15:43:45
    Sew
    This nation is certainly more pagan then anything else. Just look at all our holidays for the most part. I however am a atheist, that just happens to enjoy all the pagan holidays. You know why? Because pagans don't harrass me on THEIR holidays that Christians STOLE and repainted as theirs, even if I don't celebrate their Gods and/Goddesses.
  • ☥☽✪☾DAW... Sew 2012/06/24 18:08:36
    ☥☽✪☾DAW ☽✪☾
    Actually Alot of Athiests Enjoy Celebrating with us Pagans at our holidays

    it is actually said in ancient Egyptian Book the Papyrus of Ani
    that you are not judged by your Worship of the Gods/Goddess
    but your actions in life and how you treat others and the world around you

    so in other Words Even Atheists can still achieve an Afterlife even if you don't believe in one

    in Modern new Age Paganism we Honor the Gods/ Goddess but not Worship them honor them means be a Good person life a good life think of the Gods as our Parents or Teachers and live a good life to the fullest
  • stevegtexas@aol.com 2012/06/20 19:27:01
    No. Christianity is what America needs.
    stevegtexas@aol.com
    +1
    No, i think, "GOD" can be for anyone of any belief and religion or faith....if god was first....whats the big deal anyway? (god is NOT just for christianity......now thats self centered)......john steven grissom fort worth texas USA, world famous presbyterian night shelter walk in! 2012.
  • Metaldane stevegt... 2012/06/20 19:33:37
    Metaldane
    But the pledge is supposed to represent everyone and if you take out under god it does that having under god not only stops it from representing those who believe in no god but also those that beleive in multiple gods therefore implying that the monotheistic approach is somehow superior. To put it in perspective how would you feel if it said under Odin or under no gods?
  • stevegt... Metaldane 2012/06/21 14:43:31
    stevegtexas@aol.com
    COPY of what i wrote, you didnt read: "No, i think, "GOD" can be for anyone of any belief and religion or faith....if god was first....whats the big deal anyway? (god is NOT just for christianity......now thats self centered)......john steven grissom fort worth texas USA, world famous presbyterian night shelter walk in!" 2012.


    reply
  • Metaldane stevegt... 2012/06/21 15:19:14 (edited)
    Metaldane
    I did read that but god does not cover every belief or religion it doesn't cover the beleif in no god/s or the belief in multiple gods. The "big deal" is that the pledge no longer represents everyone as it did before the 50's
  • Joe61 2012/06/20 19:26:24
    No. Christianity is what America needs.
    Joe61
    +1
    What would you replace it with...Under Satan?
  • stevegt... Joe61 2012/06/20 19:29:07 (edited)
    stevegtexas@aol.com
    if satan is their, "god" why replace the word god anyway? whats the gripe? from the atheists? if theyre so smart anyway, they will NEVER have to worry about their kids saying the pledge???ive kind of changed my opinion somewhat......maybe theres a collection of spirits working together to better the lives of humanity......perhaps the loudest voice gets its way eh? or........the "still small voice".BIBLE. (and a child shall lead them?) BIBLE. Strongs exhaustive concordance of the bible.

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