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Objectivity of Morality

mrigor 2011/11/07 17:06:00
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  • Charles R. Anderson 2011/11/07 17:37:02
    Morality is Objective
    Charles R. Anderson
    +4
    Basic principles of morality are objective and required by the nature of man and of life on Earth. However, there is a level of moral decisions in real life which have a very personal characteristic, which some would call subjective. For instance, I chose to become a physicist and many moral decisions then came to be based on the pursuit of the value of being a physicist. I could have chosen to become a historian and then I would have made many decisions on the basis of that value. Morality is based on the identification of values and the effort to attain those values requires that we have a morality. The most basic value is that of one's own life and the need to survive in the world using one's rational faculty. But then morality branches out broadly as we identify and choose many sub-values based upon our experience, knowledge of reality, and knowledge of what values may lend themselves to our personal happiness. The basic and foundational morality is objective and we need to make many objective assessments even in pursuing many of our more custom personal goals once we have chosen them from an array of possibilities.

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  • ««zamboni»»Hellsoldier-BN0 2011/11/13 00:16:53
    Morality is Subjective
    ««zamboni»»Hellsoldier-BN0
    +1
    Ethics are not.
  • Matt 2011/11/09 21:38:51
    Morality is Objective
    Matt
    +1
    Both morality and ethics are severely lacking in too many people. However, our ability to rationalize is doing fine.
    rationalize
  • TheatreAddict 2011/11/09 16:06:41
    Morality is Subjective
    TheatreAddict
    +1
    Morals change over time. 200 years ago, slavery was considered okay. Now it's morally abhorrant. Same with treating women worse than men, and gay marriage. Morals evolve.
  • Peru 2011/11/08 20:31:02
    None of the above
    Peru
    +1
    Once upon a time there was a system operator who installed a giant computer system, which he had designed himself and installed a brand spanking new Linux OS which he had tweaked a little and on it he installed the best program he had ever designed, based on his own intellect, he actually created a program with free will that was self-aware. On a 7-day experiment he decided to let the program run, except that he established four rules for the program:

    1. No killing other active program processes (including child processes) because it the memory allocated didn't get freed properly, the stack space got cluttered, and it created core dumps the sysop had to clean up after.
    2. No killing your own process (only normal terminations and exits allowed) for the same reasons as above... memory allocation, stack space, etc.
    3. No intruding on other program's page space, again because the memory sometimes didn't get freed properly, data could get overwritten and corrupted, etc.
    4. No using malloc(); to get memory, only safe_malloc(); because programs had a tendency to abuse malloc(); and forget to free the memory once they were done with it.

    Satisfied he went away and came back the following day to see how things were going. It turns out that his first process had fork()ed a number...







    Once upon a time there was a system operator who installed a giant computer system, which he had designed himself and installed a brand spanking new Linux OS which he had tweaked a little and on it he installed the best program he had ever designed, based on his own intellect, he actually created a program with free will that was self-aware. On a 7-day experiment he decided to let the program run, except that he established four rules for the program:

    1. No killing other active program processes (including child processes) because it the memory allocated didn't get freed properly, the stack space got cluttered, and it created core dumps the sysop had to clean up after.
    2. No killing your own process (only normal terminations and exits allowed) for the same reasons as above... memory allocation, stack space, etc.
    3. No intruding on other program's page space, again because the memory sometimes didn't get freed properly, data could get overwritten and corrupted, etc.
    4. No using malloc(); to get memory, only safe_malloc(); because programs had a tendency to abuse malloc(); and forget to free the memory once they were done with it.

    Satisfied he went away and came back the following day to see how things were going. It turns out that his first process had fork()ed a number of child processes and those child processes had in turn created further child processes. Unfortunately almost none of them were adhering to the four, simple rules. The stack space had almost run out, the load average was almost 6, and the hard drive was running constantly due to memory problems due to lots of memory allocated and never freed. Worse yet there was a large number of core dumps everywhere from active processes illegally terminated.

    With a heavy sigh the sysop settled down and selected 8 running processes worth keeping. He saved up all the active processes to an empty HD and then wiped the memory, reset the stack space, deleted all the core dumps and released the 8 processes into the fresh data space. Whewh!

    Coming back the next day he found that those processes had spawned a number of child processes and those processes further child processes and things were a little better, but still there was a lot of rule breaking going on. Finding a program that was running better than all the rest, the sysop decided to give that program a special space all by itself to be protected from other programs so they could continue to run and make the kind of sentient programs he was looking for. However, to his chagrin, when he came back the next day the child processes of that favored program had been enslaved by other programs for no good reason. Outraged he empowered one of those programs to unleash horrible plagues on the enslaving programs. When that didn't work, he just killed the first-spawned process of all the enslaving processes and in the confusion got the processes freed from the slavery only to find the enslaving processes in hot pursuit of the other processes. So the sysop killed a bunch more processes, empowered the favored processes to move into the new area he had prepared only to find that other processes had invaded that area. So he empowered the programs to wipe out the squatting programs, cleaned up all the core dumps, freed up some memory and stack space, and called it a day.

    Two days later he found some upstart British-accented program claiming that the sysop was "a petty, unjust ... capriciously malevolent bully" that didn't even exist anyway. He further went on to claim that rule 1 was acceptable because killing other processes violated their rights and caused them pain, as well as rule 3 (for the same reason) but that rule 2 was truly unjust and that processes had every right to self-terminate in unauthorized ways and that rule 4 only existed to prevent programs from enjoying life. Safe_malloc(); it turned out, was far too restrictive and cumbersome for said program. It complained that the sysop (which didn't even exist) had violated numerous of his own laws of morality by terminating processes, which violated their rights, never even making mention of the fact that the sysop (by virtue of creating them, owning the operating system, and the hardware, and the stack space, and the memory they dwelled in, and teh HD they wrote upon) basically owned them and had every legal and moral right to do as he pleased.

    With a sigh the sysop went to bed for the night with the plan to preserve the working programs, destroy the rule breaking programs, and patch the OS in such a way that none of this nonsense would ever happen again. "I'll start first thing in the morning..." he thought as he drifted off to sleep.
    (more)
  • ETpro 2011/11/08 00:31:45
    Morality is Objective
    ETpro
    +1
    The law of reciprocity is objective. What goes around comes around. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That's the fundamental of all true morality; and all things advanced as moral realities yet failing that test are not morality at all, they are just rules advanced by one or another person or group to control others for their own benefit.
  • Piperpc 2011/11/08 00:30:24
    Morality is Subjective
    Piperpc
    +3
    Most non-human animals do not choose to commit "evil" acts, what they do is based on survival instinct. The same could not be be said for humans.


    holocaust photos
  • chuck.larlham 2011/11/07 22:55:49
    Morality is Subjective
    chuck.larlham
    +2
    Morality depends upon the belief system of any given person. It's not possible that morality is the same for all people in all circumstances in all places in all times in history or the future. It's absurd top think otherwise.
  • Truth Matters 2011/11/07 22:47:51
    Morality is Objective
    Truth Matters
    +2
    Of course objective moral truth exists. Does anybody seriously believe a child rapist is not objectively wrong - if the child rapist believes it's ok for him to rape children?

    Our apprehension of what is morally correct / true can be subjective. But that is irrelevant. Moral truth and duties exist - or they are nothing but illusions.

    To deny the existence of objective moral truth based on differing perceptions is just a failure to reason correctly. Differing moral perceptions imply an objective moral target exists. Otherwise, there would be no point in aiming. What would we be aiming at? A non
  • GLaDOS 2011/11/07 22:33:10
    None of the above
    GLaDOS
    +1
    It's a bit of both. Morality is objective within a community, usually, however by individuals, or between societies, it's completely subjective. It used to be believed, and still is by some cultures, that eating human flesh is perfectly well and good. Most people outside of those cultures would find it morally reprehensible to do so.
  • TheMadChameleon 2011/11/07 22:20:52
    Morality is Subjective
    TheMadChameleon
    +1
    For the most part. I'm sure there are underlying, very basic objective morals out there, but I can only give an opinion as to what they are.
  • Ken 2011/11/07 21:58:19
    None of the above
    Ken
    +2
    First thanks for a good question. It is, however, impossible to answer because it assumes we understand and agree on the definition of "morality". With a little probing, I suspect we would discover those who answer subjective have a different definition of morality than those who answer objective.

    For me the definition of morality is simple; morality is a set of principles and guidelines which result in actions that lead to a good life. So if you have a good life, you have been moral. If your life "sucks" you have been immoral. This suggests an objective test of morality.

    But who can say that the "good" life could not have been better. After all anyone who thinks they are perfect simply lacks an adequate imagination for self improvement. This suggests that every morality could be better.

    Anyway, to get to the point. There is an objective morality which can be used to compare two different moralities. Out of this comparison we can determine one morality is better. We cannot, however, define a "perfect morality". Bottom line, we know right from wrong with adequate precision to improve ourselves but without adequate precision to judge others.
  • twocrows 2011/11/07 21:55:31
    Morality is Subjective
    twocrows
    +2
    look at the history of humanity. the idea of what constitutes 'morality' has changed over time.

    one major example is the fact that it used to be considered one's moral duty to beat one's children if they spoke without being spoken to first. children were perceived as evil and to need to have the devil beaten out of them. that view held sway only a few hundred years ago.

    another is the fact that it was, for centuries, considered moral to torture and kill those who disagreed with your view of God. today we call such people 'extremists' and condemn them.

    personally, I like today's interpretation of morality better. but it certainly hasn't always been the norm.
  • Ken twocrows 2011/11/07 23:38:41
    Ken
    +1
    You may find my statement of faith interesting....
    "I believe in a God who is lonely. For companionship, this God created humanity in God's image; using evolution; and is far from finished."

    Bottom line ... I could agree with your more. Humanities path is one of continual enlightenment. As our abilities become more Godlike, our morality must as well. Of course, even God knows the most likely outcome is humanity destroying itself, hence the Armageddon prophecies.
  • elijahin24 2011/11/07 21:42:47
    None of the above
    elijahin24
    +2
    It's a little of both. Certainly we can all agree that there are some morals which are universal. Don't kill, steal, or rape. Don't intentionally harm your fellow human being. But there are some which are subjective, and in many cases, in direct contradiction to one another. One of the hottest examples of a conflict of morality right now; is between those who believe that we should all be seen as equal, and free, and those who believe that gays are evil and should be prevented from marrying each other.
  • 2226693 2011/11/07 20:47:59
  • rand 2011/11/07 20:27:21
    Morality is Subjective
    rand
    +1
    Ethics are more objective than morals, which often are based upon unverifiable religious tenets. Nevertheless, ethical behavior is critical for mankind to survive himself.
  • petean05 2011/11/07 19:49:33
    Morality is Subjective
    petean05
    +1
    I believe, through my personal experiences and conversations, that morality is subjective.
  • Bitwise Operator 2011/11/07 19:43:07
    Morality is Subjective
    Bitwise Operator
    +1
    Oops, hit the wrong button.

    Morality is like truth. It is completely Object. An act is either good or evil.
  • twocrows Bitwise... 2011/11/07 21:49:56
    twocrows
    that which is seen as 'moral' has changed over time.
    there was a time when torturing and murdering people was just fine if you disagreed with their idea of God.

    would you say that that is ok today? if not - morality is subjective.
  • Bitwise... twocrows 2011/11/08 02:40:11
    Bitwise Operator
    +1
    Good and evil do not change. Truth too is absolute and in that regard truth is the ultimate good - they cannot be separated. Man is subjective but good and evil are not.

    Man only resorts to relativism when he rejects truth to suit his own desires.
  • Anna E 2011/11/07 19:09:54 (edited)
    Morality is Subjective
    Anna E
    +3
    Metaphysically, something exists objectively when it exists whether anyone experiences it or not; like the Grand Canyon or Hudsons Bay, for instance.

    Metaphysical subjectivity is when something's existence depends upon a person or persons experiencing it; like the border between the USA and Canada, for instance.



    Metaphysically, morality is subjective.



    Epistomological subjectivity and objectivity are largely about what is true or false. Epsitomological objectivity is when something is "a matter of fact"; such as that Hudsons Bay contains water or the Grand Canyon was formed by erosion.

    Epistomological subjectivity is when something is a matter of opinion, such as whether the border between Canada and the USA is in the right place or not, or whether strawberry ice cream is better than vanilla ice cream or not. Epistomological subjectivity is dependent upon metaphysical subjectivity.



    Epistomologically, morals are still subjective.



    What CAN be objective about morals is found by using reason. How we interpret and agree upon all the variables involved with human behavior.
  • Luca~PWCM~JLA 2011/11/07 18:56:35
    None of the above
    Luca~PWCM~JLA
    +1
    Morality is a convenience, a yardstick that people move about to serve their own purpose. Morality without Integrity is fictitious. How many people do the "hard thing", regardless consequence or pain, to serve a higher moral code? Few. The best description I have ever heard on Objectivity versus Morality is in John Galt's speech. I think this is the best 32 pages anyone could read.

    http://agendatwentyone.wordpr...
  • BoomLover 2011/11/07 18:52:38 (edited)
    None of the above
    BoomLover
    +1
    Morality is both, just depends on the situation and the particular mindset...is it "real world", or "other world"? What or where are you at the moment? What gives YOU your sense of Morality, may just be superstitious hogwash to another. A perfect example of this here on SodaHead is the posts by "holyheretic", that person is convinced that any forms of "Morality" come from your perception of your Religious values, or in their own case, lack of Religious Values...what has been instilled in you, what has been taught to you....this can be readily observed in the teachings of the two dominate Religions of the world today, Christianity, and Islam. One teaches the Morality you should do, externally and internally, while the other teaches only dominance over your fellows, which displays no Morality what-so-ever. Hope this somewhat answers the question, at least to some degree.......Good question, by the way....
  • Noah Vaile 2011/11/07 18:45:36
    Morality is Objective
    Noah Vaile
    +2
    You know what's right. Now go out and do the right thing.
    There is no such thing as "relative" good and bad. There is better and worse, yes, but good and bad are absolutes when you get to the end of the line. Think about it.
  • Brian ☮ R P ☮ 2012 ☮ 2011/11/07 18:06:57
    None of the above
    Brian ☮ R P ☮ 2012 ☮
    +2
    It's both, depending entirely on the situational juxtaposition of the individual or group.
  • Charles R. Anderson 2011/11/07 17:37:02
    Morality is Objective
    Charles R. Anderson
    +4
    Basic principles of morality are objective and required by the nature of man and of life on Earth. However, there is a level of moral decisions in real life which have a very personal characteristic, which some would call subjective. For instance, I chose to become a physicist and many moral decisions then came to be based on the pursuit of the value of being a physicist. I could have chosen to become a historian and then I would have made many decisions on the basis of that value. Morality is based on the identification of values and the effort to attain those values requires that we have a morality. The most basic value is that of one's own life and the need to survive in the world using one's rational faculty. But then morality branches out broadly as we identify and choose many sub-values based upon our experience, knowledge of reality, and knowledge of what values may lend themselves to our personal happiness. The basic and foundational morality is objective and we need to make many objective assessments even in pursuing many of our more custom personal goals once we have chosen them from an array of possibilities.
  • Shawna Charles... 2011/11/07 17:48:07
    Shawna
    +3
    I agree with your explanation except I am puzzled by your first statement. Everything you have said supports the idea of morality as subjective, a construct that allows humans to live together successfully. What are the basic principles of morality you refer to which are objective?
  • Charles... Shawna 2011/11/17 04:12:52
    Charles R. Anderson
    +2
    Upon observing that man must use his rational faculty to understand reality, it becomes a moral imperative to focus on using one's own mind to identify reality and to come to understand it. Upon observing that man's survival depends upon productive work, it becomes a moral imperative to perform productive work. These assume in each case that one has chosen one's own life and survival as one's highest value. Without that choice or some other choice such as performing God's will, no morality is needed or necessary. Morality is a set of principles of action to guide one in one's efforts to achieve or to keep one's values. There is a hierarchy of values. The values of the rational man will be objective, yet they can be customized to his highly unique nature. We are all complex and highly differentiated individuals. Our minds literally do not work in the same way. This does not make them subjective, because they are objectively different, yet in most cases we are each capable of objectively identifying facts of reality.

    As we work out our hierarchy of values, one may identifying going to MIT as a value if one wants to be an engineer. But, if one wants to be musician, one would identify attending Juilliard School of Music as a value. Fortunately not everyone chooses to be...
    Upon observing that man must use his rational faculty to understand reality, it becomes a moral imperative to focus on using one's own mind to identify reality and to come to understand it. Upon observing that man's survival depends upon productive work, it becomes a moral imperative to perform productive work. These assume in each case that one has chosen one's own life and survival as one's highest value. Without that choice or some other choice such as performing God's will, no morality is needed or necessary. Morality is a set of principles of action to guide one in one's efforts to achieve or to keep one's values. There is a hierarchy of values. The values of the rational man will be objective, yet they can be customized to his highly unique nature. We are all complex and highly differentiated individuals. Our minds literally do not work in the same way. This does not make them subjective, because they are objectively different, yet in most cases we are each capable of objectively identifying facts of reality.

    As we work out our hierarchy of values, one may identifying going to MIT as a value if one wants to be an engineer. But, if one wants to be musician, one would identify attending Juilliard School of Music as a value. Fortunately not everyone chooses to become an engineer and not everyone chooses to become a musician. Yet the choice of each may be rich in objective choices on the part of anyone who chooses one or the other. But, I have to recognize my own weakness in processing sound information and my lack of rhythm, so it would not be very rational for me to choose to become a musician. Basically morality, such as one should not initiate the use of force against others, is objective. And being objective, it has to take some cognizance of our individual complexity and uniqueness.
    (more)
  • Shawna Charles... 2011/11/17 04:24:45
    Shawna
    +2
    I understand this argument and thank your for providing it. My first thought is that morality is subjective because as you have just pointed out, it is subject to one's values. If one does not value man's survival one does not find it to be a moral objective to behave in a way that supports it. I would agree that there are some values humans are likely to have and that makes morality seem objective.
  • Charles... Shawna 2011/11/17 04:40:31
    Charles R. Anderson
    +1
    You do have to make a choice of an ultimate value before morality can be defined. Having made such a choice as the one's own survival, then the rest is primarily objective. A choice of a different ultimate value than one's own life may make it impossible to be objective in further establishing a moral code.
  • Shawna Charles... 2011/11/17 04:51:30
    Shawna
    Are we perhaps splitting hairs? LOL
  • Shawna Charles... 2011/11/07 17:49:30
    Shawna
    +2
    I have just read Headhunter's response and it makes sense to me. Perhaps that is what you were referring to.
  • ☠Marz555☠ 2011/11/07 17:28:53
    Morality is Subjective
    ☠Marz555☠
    +3
    According to religion, morality is subjective to what book you read.... Exclusively.

    Note how it is considered by the book that the Christians worship, that not believing in that script is considered to be "immoral".
  • Headhunter 13 2011/11/07 17:25:41 (edited)
    Morality is Objective
    Headhunter 13
    +4
    It has it's base in the real world and real time not in imaginary realms. But that said superstition has done a lot to convince people otherwise and made it subjective to often.

    I think the better answer is that it is relative and influenced by both subject and object values
  • Shawna Headhun... 2011/11/07 17:49:02
    Shawna
    +1
    Well said.
  • Headhun... Shawna 2011/11/07 18:25:21
    Headhunter 13
    +1
    Thanks my friend

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