“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
-Epicurus
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been..." Agree or disagree?
ANGEL
2012/06/18 14:26:07
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will
not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the
virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you
should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be
gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories
of your loved ones.”
―
Marcus Aurelius
I have always believed that it is the life we lead, our deeds that count - and not what we believe or don't believe. Growing up in a Jewish home, this was stressed. When I attended a Christian church for the first time I was 17 -- and I was appalled that I was being judged and condemned because of my beliefs - rather than by the good acts that I would accomplish during my lifetime. In Scientology, living an ethical life, based on the virtues by which you live, are the things that matter. I choose my friends by their behavior/their actions - not by their beliefs. As such, while I am surrounded by friends of all walks of life - in this way, we walk the same path.
Do you believe it is your actions that count - or what beliefs you follow?
PLEASE NOTE: In this poll I am asking a general question - "Do you believe your actions count - or the beliefs that you follow"...This is not a poll to create a platform for any one group to be bashed. If you cannot conduct yourself accordingly, please do not comment on my polls. Thank you.
not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the
virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you
should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be
gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories
of your loved ones.”
―
Marcus Aurelius
I have always believed that it is the life we lead, our deeds that count - and not what we believe or don't believe. Growing up in a Jewish home, this was stressed. When I attended a Christian church for the first time I was 17 -- and I was appalled that I was being judged and condemned because of my beliefs - rather than by the good acts that I would accomplish during my lifetime. In Scientology, living an ethical life, based on the virtues by which you live, are the things that matter. I choose my friends by their behavior/their actions - not by their beliefs. As such, while I am surrounded by friends of all walks of life - in this way, we walk the same path.
Do you believe it is your actions that count - or what beliefs you follow?
PLEASE NOTE: In this poll I am asking a general question - "Do you believe your actions count - or the beliefs that you follow"...This is not a poll to create a platform for any one group to be bashed. If you cannot conduct yourself accordingly, please do not comment on my polls. Thank you.
Top Opinion
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taylordoesntdeserve 2012/06/18 17:05:19
I totally deplore those who think that any behavior, no matter how heinous, is just peachy-keeno because "accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior" is the only thing that matters. This is primarily an evangelical Christian idea but is growing, to the detriment of society and the planet. Chick tracts ( http://www.chick.com/reading/ ) stress this point over and over again. (NOTE: please don't click the link if you are easily outraged or nauseated.)
I'm not Christian-bashing because the majority of Christians follow James 2:14-26, which clearly states that faith, alone, is worthless. If the "brother of Jesus" said that your behavior needs to demonstrate your faith, it seems to me that the only people who could deny this are those who want to do as they please while still convincing themselves that they are destined for some heavenly afterlife.
In RL, I almost never know the faith of those whose behavior I find intolerable. I never let them get close enough for me to discuss the matter. I consider them unworthy of my attention.
It's all about behavior.
I surround myself with people who do good. These people may be Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Scientologists, Agnostics, Jewish, etc. -- no matter. Their beliefs have nothing to do with whether or not they are my friend -- it is all about behavior.
I also think it's horrendous that people think they have the right to threaten you with what is, for them, the most terrible fate imaginable. What hubris! What arrogance!
I take a real delight in turning their pitiful superstitions into a baggie of warm roach spit.
Seriously though - I see your point about being threatened with the most terrible fate. I hadn't thought about that before, but that is pretty low.
And the worst part about it is that they think they are doing you a favor! You have to ask yourself about the kind of a person who harbors such a mindset and why you'd let such a person closer than 3 miles away.
ETA: I just got to thinking... If someone threatened to shoot you or knife you or poison you, you could go to the police and get an order of protection against them. I wonder what would happen if I applied for a formal order of protection against anyone who threatened me with everlasting burning?
Interesting. Very interesting...
RAMEN!
Basically, to be saved you accept Christ as the Messiah who died for your sins. Once you have done that, the good works will follow.
Wow, I just realized I got two Star Trek references in there! LOL
Actually, they are Christians. Christians are any people who believe that the man whose name is transliterated as "Jesus" is divine. So, Westboro are Christians.
The fact that they are crazy is beside the point. I consider all theists as suffering from culturally-induced psychosis so I don't view Westboro as different, except in degree.
It is run by Fred Phelps and over 90% of the congregation is his family. The are an extremist fringe group and do not represent mainstream and true Christians any more than extremist Muslims represent Islam as a whole.
And, saying "true Christians" is falling for the "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. Anyone who believes Christ is a god is a Christian, no matter how many warts they may have. By saying, "not true Christians", you can step away from them and not have to deal with the grave problems their belief system causes for the religion, as a whole.
Before you can fix something, you must first face it.
Genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life. A person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ.
The members of the Westboro Baptist Church claim to speak in God’s name, but do so in a way contradictory to what God shows us in the Bible. They go against the teachings of Christ.
The importance of seeking God’s wisdom and grace in interacting with others. We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15). We are to defend the faith with “gentleness and respect” (1 Peter 3:15). Love, gentleness, and respect are completely lacking in the methods and message of Westboro Baptist Church.
And, I disagree about "genuine faith" producing a changed life. There are many Christians, especially on SH, who are arrogant cretins who think they have the right to tell the world how it "ought" to think and behave. You mentioned two Baptist organizations and they both are chock-full of these sorts of people. I consider them detrimental to the smooth and happy functioning of society.
And, please, don't quote the Bible to me. I don't consider the Bible as any sort of ethical authority and I use it only to demonstrate the violent and contradictory nature of Christianity.
It is impossible to use the Bible as a backup for any sort of discussion.
As for me using Scripture, I will use it whenever I please to demonstrate my beliefs. It is the basis for my beliefs whether you believe in it or not. It is impossible for me to express my beliefs without it. If that is something that bothers you, then you are free to not respond to my posts.
I won't thumb a Bible at you to tell you how to live nor think. I will use Scripture to show why I believe something.
I am unimpressed by Bible references. They do NOT constitute "evidence" in any way, shape or form. The Bible is just an infomercial to sell a god and its claims are as valid as the claims for Ginsu knives.
Before you can use the Bible as an authority for anything you must (in this order):
1. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that any god exists in reality.
2. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the god of the Bible exists.
3. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the god of the Bible wanted to communicate with his/her/its followers.
4. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the god of the Bible influenced humans to be the mediums of that communication.
5. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the humans who actually wrote the Bible were the same humans the god chose as mediums of communication.
6. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the Bible is the book that resulted from those chosen humans.
7. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the words they wrote were at divine behest by showing each and every wor...
I am unimpressed by Bible references. They do NOT constitute "evidence" in any way, shape or form. The Bible is just an infomercial to sell a god and its claims are as valid as the claims for Ginsu knives.
Before you can use the Bible as an authority for anything you must (in this order):
1. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that any god exists in reality.
2. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the god of the Bible exists.
3. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the god of the Bible wanted to communicate with his/her/its followers.
4. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the god of the Bible influenced humans to be the mediums of that communication.
5. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the humans who actually wrote the Bible were the same humans the god chose as mediums of communication.
6. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the Bible is the book that resulted from those chosen humans.
7. Demonstrate, with neutral, scholarly evidence, that the words they wrote were at divine behest by showing each and every word is absolutely correct. (Unless you want to stipulate that a god would deliberately choose to allow falsehood to be communicated in his/her/its name.)
It's only when you can do ALL of the above that you can use the Bible as an authority. Otherwise, it's just a book.
I could use Clement Moore's poem as "proof" that Santa Claus exists. The poem describes Santa's looks in great detail. (His eyes—how they twinkled! his dimples how merry! His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry! His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow and the beard on his chin was as white as the snow...
He had a broad face and a little round belly, That shook when he laughed, like a bowlful of jelly. He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf...)
*Nothing similar exists for Jesus.
It describes his magical behavior. It describes the magical transportation he uses. We have the names of his 8 flying reindeer. It even shows what kind of magical person he is, personally. (A wink of his eye and a twist of his head, soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread.) *How different from the Bible god.
And, this poem is not anonymous...as are the books of the Bible. We have the name of the author. We have the author claiming to have been an eye-witness.
Why should we not accept Santa Claus as real?
You don't have "personal experiences with God" because such things happen entirely in your head. You have no way of demonstrating that these "experiences" exist, in reality. What makes them different from the "voices" that tell a paranoid schizophrenic to do or not do something?
If we classify the latter as mental illness, how should we classify the former when there is no way to tell one from the other?
And, I have no opinion of you, personally. I'm sure you're a perfectly nice woman whom anyone would delight to know. I just think that people should be sure of what they say...especially in public.
The author of this thread is a Scientologist and she clearly says, "I believe" so I never call her on her beliefs. She is entitled to believe whatever makes her happy. And, she's also a nice woman. Were she to say, "I know..." I'd call her on it in a heartbeat. Were she to say, "I know and you are going to be eternally punished.", I'd rip her religion to shreds.
It truly IS all about behavior.
When I say "I know what I know" I meant I know why I believe what I do and why my experiences validate my beliefs for me.
I would never tell anyone they are going to be eternally damned. I never attempt to force anyone to convert to my beliefs.
I'm just very careful to separate "faith" and "knowledge", since the two are nothing alike. I will not accept "Jesus said" or "God says" as matters of fact. No one has any evidence that either statement has a basis in reality.
When people say, "I believe", I'm happy that they have found something they find comforting. After all, we all need comfort. I just don't want them putting their beliefs into my life.
If Christians kept their god in their crystal cathedrals or their little, white churches, they'd never hear another word from me.
Be well.
I do not believe in "gods" plural. I believe in a risen Savior. That I don't hold up my end of the bargain, not infrequently, is my failing, and I fail continually. That is the point of repentance. So, while I fail daily, I still believe eternally.
Not sure what else I could add.
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
-Epicurus