Legit question. Why do Christians say the bible is proof of god?
666_Maggots~PassionForGlory BN-1
2012/07/09 21:15:50
Just because something is written doesn't mean that it is true right?
Top Opinion
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The Sane One 2012/07/09 21:29:12
No, I clearly understand that our lives have more significance than a cockroach or a maggot. Your Atheism cannot ground any such reality, so you are forced into the absurd position that your life has no significance or intrinsic value. Atheism is false.
You experience real significance. Your experience of real significance is not a chemical delusion - as would be the case if Atheism were true.
Atheism is absurd. Lose the Atheism and embrace reality.
Frankly, you're wasting my time.
No, we both know you were changing subjects to avoid the fact you could not provide any objective basis for moral values and duties under Atheism or any evidence that no God exists.
Somebody needs to hold you accountable.
Let's get that settled before deflecting off to your latest phony claim.
God is not a sufficient basis to explain whatever moral reality you think may exist. Could there be a higher power? Yes. Does that mean it has to be the Abrahamic god? No; there is no evidence supporting the idea that it is that one deity and not any other. Morals are something we humans made up to enforce order in our society.
Atheism just is.
Lose the holier-than-thou attitude and embrace your experiences.
"God is not a sufficient basis to explain whatever moral reality you think may exist. "
That's just empty denial. Obviously God's nature is perfectly sufficient to ground an objective realm of moral values and duties. You provide no justification for your claim to that God is not a sufficient basis...
I understand you are upset at losing every point on the merits, but don't pretend it's me that is not embracing my experience.
It's you (your Atheism) that cannot ground the objective moral reality we both experience. My Theism is perfectly consistent with experience of real morality and moral choice.
It's your Atheism that cannot rationally permit actual free-will we both experience. It's your Atheism that reduces man to electro-chemical machines with every though and action 100% causally determined by chemicals.
My Theism is perfectly compatible with having a free-willed soul behind our chemical physiology - allowing real moral choice, real free-will, agency...
She is a chronic liar who lies and manipulates without conscience according to her immediate purposes.
Somebody needs to hold her accountable.
You still miss/avoid the core point. Moral values are not grounded in the 'code' from a book. The 'code' would at best constitute moral duties, but the moral values are grounded in the moral Nature of God - OR THEY DON'T EXIST AT ALL (No God). That's the point!
However, we powerfully experience a very real objective moral realm. This is evidence an actual moral realm (that requires God to be real) actually exists. This is one of the many arguments for God.
P1) Objective moral values and duties cannot exist unless God exists
P2) Objective moral values and duties do exist
Therefore, God exists
God never existed."
Your words
I proved to you that morality cannot be real without God. You ignore the fact.
You denied God exists period. Now you want to lie about it and claim you are not Atheist.
No, that's not called being informed. Being able to determine free will hasn't happened yet; I understand that you're trying to baaaw, but it's starting to become less cute.
Please don't ever use the "X happens, therefore Y" argument again.
lrn2english
Unless God is a troll and likes to screw with us?
That's Verificationism - the belief that all that cannot be falsified empirically is meaningless. Verficationism was falsified last century. The statement "only empirically verifiable/falsifiable propositions are meaningful" cannot be verified empirically. Verificationism cuts it's own throat.
Verificationism fails verification. Sorry, but you swallowed a whopper that Atheists still cling to.
"No. Claiming that God has infinite explantatory power (whatever that means)"
Whatever that means??? Really? Explanatory power and scope are KING when it comes to determining the truth of a proposition. Everything you believe and know rest on these foundations of rational thought.
"Besides, if God cannot be observed then how would you know He's physical?"
God is not physical. God is mind/spirit. This is pretty basic stuff.
"Also the FSM and Invisible Pink Unicorn exist in a realm outside ours. They, like God (supposedly) can interact with our realm at will."
False: The FSM flies in space and is physically comprised of Spaghetti. Obviously, your claim is false.
Pink is a physica...
That's Verificationism - the belief that all that cannot be falsified empirically is meaningless. Verficationism was falsified last century. The statement "only empirically verifiable/falsifiable propositions are meaningful" cannot be verified empirically. Verificationism cuts it's own throat.
Verificationism fails verification. Sorry, but you swallowed a whopper that Atheists still cling to.
"No. Claiming that God has infinite explantatory power (whatever that means)"
Whatever that means??? Really? Explanatory power and scope are KING when it comes to determining the truth of a proposition. Everything you believe and know rest on these foundations of rational thought.
"Besides, if God cannot be observed then how would you know He's physical?"
God is not physical. God is mind/spirit. This is pretty basic stuff.
"Also the FSM and Invisible Pink Unicorn exist in a realm outside ours. They, like God (supposedly) can interact with our realm at will."
False: The FSM flies in space and is physically comprised of Spaghetti. Obviously, your claim is false.
Pink is a physical attribute. That necessarily implies a physical existence. 'Invisible Pink' is just irrational language expressing a mutually exclusive proposition.
Sorry, your silly Atheist excuses have been falsified. Ironic, huh?
Now produce your evidence and arguments to justify that Atheist belief position. No more excuses.
Cthulu's soul is spirit too, so does that exist?
And how would you know the FSM flies in space?
And Invisible Pink isn't mutually exclusive; it's in fact a conjoining of faith and empirical science: people will agree that since one cannot see the unicorn, it is invisible. They also have faith that it is pink.
Again, when you say something that isn't "God is mind/spirit" which is meaningless then maybe, just maybe, this will become interesting when your position actually is backed up with evidence.
lrn2trollharder
Because flight requires space. pretty basic stuff.
You have been proven wrong on 100% of your objections, yet you are too dishonest to admit that demonstrable fact. You can't justify your excuses, you just repeat them - even after I have defeated them.
You just keep shifting, dancing and parsing hoping to distract from your predicament of being proven wrong.
It's time you justify your position. Enough excuses. Your problem is that you can't. Atheism is an unjustifiable belief.
Hardly. You've presumed much of your assumptions. While I may entertain the idea of a higher power, I won't use it as proof that a sapient deity as such would exist.
Here is a very cursory outline of some of the best evidences for God. The full arguments and evidences are not NOT adequately explained here. This is a very compacted outline I put together - not comprehensive.
Contingency – Why does something exist rather than nothing? Something cannot begin from nothing without a cause, so Something must self-exist. Self-existence is necessary. Self –creation is impossible. The Universe began. Universe is not self-existent. Universe requires a causally antecedent agency to explain it’s existence. God does not – no beginning.
Cosmological – Absolute beginning requires a cause. Cause of Physical Universe cannot be Physical. Must be non-physical, space-less, timeless and willful to cause Physical Universe from Physical Nothingness.
Design: Specified ordered and integrated interdependencies aimed towards a third-purpose design objectives clearly infer intelligent agency. ‘Chance’ events within limited time-frames cannot rationally account for Design achievements No plausible Naturalistic mechanisms or explanations actually exist. Origin of radically sophisticated DNA information (so...
Here is a very cursory outline of some of the best evidences for God. The full arguments and evidences are not NOT adequately explained here. This is a very compacted outline I put together - not comprehensive.
Contingency – Why does something exist rather than nothing? Something cannot begin from nothing without a cause, so Something must self-exist. Self-existence is necessary. Self –creation is impossible. The Universe began. Universe is not self-existent. Universe requires a causally antecedent agency to explain it’s existence. God does not – no beginning.
Cosmological – Absolute beginning requires a cause. Cause of Physical Universe cannot be Physical. Must be non-physical, space-less, timeless and willful to cause Physical Universe from Physical Nothingness.
Design: Specified ordered and integrated interdependencies aimed towards a third-purpose design objectives clearly infer intelligent agency. ‘Chance’ events within limited time-frames cannot rationally account for Design achievements No plausible Naturalistic mechanisms or explanations actually exist. Origin of radically sophisticated DNA information (software) driving molecular highly sophisticated molecular machines within each cell. Also, the design inference from irreducible complexity cannot and certainly has not been adequately explained.
Precision FINELY TUNED constants and quantities present in initial conditions of the Universe to within infinitesimally narrow ranges to permit life. Universe is precision balanced on razor’s edge. This is virtual mathematical proof of intent – a function of mind – is necessary to explain these precision orderings.
Ontological argument – God is a metaphysically necessary Being. Since God’s attributes are metaphysically possible, and all metaphysical possibilities must also be actual if possible, God must be actual.
Intelligence in Nature: Intelligence, order and reason and information all from Nothingness?
Spiritual instinct of man: Evolved to connect with something not actual?
Free-will: Chemical causation is not free-will. Agency requires a soul. Chemicals have no moral duties.
Moral Truth / Apprehension of Objective moral truth. Is rape really wrong or just an illusion? Is rape just a natural chemical byproduct caused by electrochemical activity (Atheism) – or an act of will.
Massive Historical evidences of witnessed Miracles, visions, fulfilled prophecies,.
Personal experiences: Ubiquitous NDE’s, supernatural phenomena
Christ’s resurrection witnessed by hundreds.
Absolute failure of Naturalism to explain a Finely tuned Universe, Finite Universe, Sentience, Rational truth and natural order, Moral Law (morality), intuition, intentionality, intelligence, purpose, free-will…