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Is Westboro Baptist Church for real or is it a false flag operation?

Siddiqi 2012/07/06 20:47:06
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My Muslim friends all say Westboro is sincere, they are just extreme Fundamentalist Christians. My Christian friends insist these are not real Christians, Christianity is a religion of love, not hate. They say they are agents provocateurs, a false flag operation trying to discredit Christians and generate sympathy for gay rights. That they are financially supported by wealthy gays and that is why they have the money for all their traveling and demonstrating. I would really like to find out what people think, what they really are.
I have read other people saying they are a false flag operation of Marxists trying to undermine America's culture or they a FBI false flag operation aimed at undermining freedom of expression and justify a more repressive system. There were many such suggestions in a former question, http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/is-it-ok-for-westboro-b... , but no answers that were backed up with evidence. If you google Westboro and "false flag" or Westboro and provoateur, you will find many, many discussion groups where all these theories are repeatedly expounded, but I have still seen no evidence. Please provide any evidence you know of. Thank you.
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Yesterday, July 9, Rosemary finally posted an answer which actually provides some resolution of the problem of how can Westboro be the fundamentalist Christians they claim to be and only want to shout hatred at people and not try to convert anyone to their way of thinking. http://www.sodahead.com/living/is-westboro-baptist-church-for...
Thank you, Rosemary.

Read More: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps#Theologic...

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  • Rosemary 2012/07/10 02:29:25
    Westboro is an Atheist false flag operation designed to alienate people from ...
    Rosemary
    +21
    I finally found a good summary of Westboro theological beliefs, which does explain their strange behavior. After reading this, I am much more inclined to believe they may be real. Especially note in the third point: "it explains why the Westboro Baptist Church protests aren't about proselytizing. The intent of their protests is to thank God for smiting us."
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/...
    The theology of the WBC is similar to Calvinism. According to their beliefs:
    * Man is in a state of sin, and can only be saved by the grace of God.
    * This grace is not given freely to all, but only to God's "elect".
    * The elect are the people whom God has foreordained to salvation. All others are reprobates, who have been created for the express purpose of being sent to Hell. This is the Calvinist belief of unconditional election, a.k.a. "double predestination," which is a form of determinism; it explains why the Westboro Baptist Church protests aren't about proselytizing. The intent of their protests is to thank God for smiting us.
    * Those whom God chooses to condemn, he causes to sin by "hardening their hearts" against himself.
    * It is the duty of the elect to proclaim God's word (even though God will not cause the reprobates to listen). Their goal is not to win conve...



    I finally found a good summary of Westboro theological beliefs, which does explain their strange behavior. After reading this, I am much more inclined to believe they may be real. Especially note in the third point: "it explains why the Westboro Baptist Church protests aren't about proselytizing. The intent of their protests is to thank God for smiting us."
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/...
    The theology of the WBC is similar to Calvinism. According to their beliefs:
    * Man is in a state of sin, and can only be saved by the grace of God.
    * This grace is not given freely to all, but only to God's "elect".
    * The elect are the people whom God has foreordained to salvation. All others are reprobates, who have been created for the express purpose of being sent to Hell. This is the Calvinist belief of unconditional election, a.k.a. "double predestination," which is a form of determinism; it explains why the Westboro Baptist Church protests aren't about proselytizing. The intent of their protests is to thank God for smiting us.
    * Those whom God chooses to condemn, he causes to sin by "hardening their hearts" against himself.
    * It is the duty of the elect to proclaim God's word (even though God will not cause the reprobates to listen). Their goal is not to win converts, or to "save" others, but simply to rebuke others for their sins.
    * All events on earth happen because of God's will. This includes natural disasters and actions committed by people. Events such as Hurricane Katrina, the September 11th attacks on New York and the financial recession of 2008-09 are therefore celebrated by the WBC as God's righteous destruction of reprobates.[9]
    * It is also the duty of the elect to praise and thank God for all such judgments. This is why the Phelps family is often seen with signs reading "Thank God for 9/11" and "Thank God for Dead Soldiers". They offered similar thanks for the recent $11 million judgment against them, because they see it as proof that God is hardening the hearts of men against them.
    * The Elect pretty much includes the members of Westboro Baptist, and practically nobody else.
    Their obsession with homosexuality is the result of the widespread acceptance of homosexuality in the world. For the members of the WBC, all sins separate man from God, and they do not claim that the elect do not commit sin. However, according to their beliefs, people must sincerely repent of their sins before they can be forgiven. For the members of the WBC, "gay pride" and the acceptance of homosexuality is tantamount to having "murderer pride" or thinking of child rape as being just another, equally valid form of sexual expression. Anyone who doesn't condemn homosexuality as evil is, according to the WBC, a "fag enabler", and deserving of divine retribution.
    (more)

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Opinions

  • Siddiqi Siddiqi 2012/07/08 20:38:45
    Siddiqi
    Well, finally someone gave an answer to why Westboro would try to alienate eveyone instead of convert and save them like other fundamentalist Christians. See http://www.sodahead.com/livin... and my answer there.
  • Lenshina 2012/07/07 00:50:36
    Westboro is a gay front, designed to discredit Christians and generate sympat...
    Lenshina
    +4
    Here is another answer to who is really funding Westboro Baptist Church.
    http://forum.prisonplanet.com...
    The consensus here seems to be that they are agents provocateurs for the police and military as an excuse to tighten anti-free-speech laws and oppress Christians. I do not believe that at all, but it shows that the idea that they a front for some other group is pretty widespread. Their positions are so in conflict with their purported theology, they just can not be real. No Christians of any ilk are like that. It is interesting that both left and right atheists (in the earlier question) agree Westboro is not really Christian.
  • Karl 2012/07/07 00:44:11
    Westboro really are Fundamentalist Christian extremists who manage somehow to...
    Karl
    +1
    They do have real jobs, although I don't know who on earth would want to hire them.
  • Not wha... Karl 2012/07/07 08:57:56
  • RushSchlafly 2012/07/07 00:39:41
    Westboro is a gay front, designed to discredit Christians and generate sympat...
    RushSchlafly
    +5
    They are so obviously a gay rights front, I do wish people would quit taking them seriously. I have said for years that they are agents provocateurs for the gay rights movement, created to bring discredit on fundamentalist Christians.
  • kcandi 2012/07/06 23:35:39
    Other, undecided, etc.
    kcandi
    +1
    They are a hate group. No more, no less. They just hide under the umbrella of "christianity" and are funded by other haters.
  • 'Zedd 2012/07/06 23:24:58
  • Llesenia 2012/07/06 23:12:28
    Other, undecided, etc.
    Llesenia
    +5
    Well, I know they are an inspiration to gay rights workers, but I do not know of anyone actually funding them. Maybe we would if they ran out of funding. I think it would be a good idea, they certainly do generate sympathy for gays and lesbians.
  • ZERO 2012/07/06 23:01:27
    Westboro really is a Fundamentalist Christian group but supported by various ...
    ZERO
    +1
    I don't know what their motivation is but they're shady, no doubt.
  • Carol 2012/07/06 22:59:10
    Westboro really are Fundamentalist Christian extremists who manage somehow to...
    Carol
    +1
    Ha! Read the bible and then tell me Chrisianity is a religion of love.
  • RosaLuxemburg 2012/07/06 22:32:34
    Westboro is a gay front, designed to discredit Christians and generate sympat...
    RosaLuxemburg
    +17
    As I said last time in response to all those loudly saying Westboro is a Marxist or Leftist front, http://www.sodahead.com/unite...
    Of course Westboro is a false church just set up to discredit fundamentalist and evangelical Christians, that is pretty obvious. That this serves the purpose of creating sympathy for the gay movement is also clear, making it likely that they are supported by people in the gay movement. But that in no way implicates Marxists as being involved. Communist states have outlawed homosexuality and had harsher anti-gay laws than the West. As a movement of the proletariat, labor, Marxists tend to have the macho attitudes common in the working class. While they give lip service to equal rights for women, Marxist men tend to be as sexist and bigoted against gays as any other group of working men. So I think the accusation that Westboro is a Marxist front is very much in error. If it is the work of some atheist group, Ayn Rand followers, "Objectivists", are a much more likely group. But I would mainly suspect money hungry opportunists funded by the gay movement.
    Then in response to an accusation of being a right wing Fundamentalist trying to deflect responsibility for Westboro, I wrote http://www.sodahead.com/unite...
    I am on the Left, a socialist. ...



    As I said last time in response to all those loudly saying Westboro is a Marxist or Leftist front, http://www.sodahead.com/unite...
    Of course Westboro is a false church just set up to discredit fundamentalist and evangelical Christians, that is pretty obvious. That this serves the purpose of creating sympathy for the gay movement is also clear, making it likely that they are supported by people in the gay movement. But that in no way implicates Marxists as being involved. Communist states have outlawed homosexuality and had harsher anti-gay laws than the West. As a movement of the proletariat, labor, Marxists tend to have the macho attitudes common in the working class. While they give lip service to equal rights for women, Marxist men tend to be as sexist and bigoted against gays as any other group of working men. So I think the accusation that Westboro is a Marxist front is very much in error. If it is the work of some atheist group, Ayn Rand followers, "Objectivists", are a much more likely group. But I would mainly suspect money hungry opportunists funded by the gay movement.
    Then in response to an accusation of being a right wing Fundamentalist trying to deflect responsibility for Westboro, I wrote http://www.sodahead.com/unite...
    I am on the Left, a socialist. Read profiles before you post garbage. I am pro gay rights, too. Westboro is aligned with the Democrats, incidentally, Phelps has ties with Gore, ran as a Democrat, and was active in the civil rights movement and still supports racial equality. This is not in any way a left-right issue. I am an Atheist and anti-Christian, too. But these guys are not Christian, I have spent a lifetime fighting fundamentalist Christians and I know what they are like.
    And to a question on what are Fundamentalists really like,
    http://www.sodahead.com/unite...
    Real fundamentalists reek with "goodness", are sanctimonius hypocrites who know they are saved because they believe in Jesus as their personal savior. The Phelps clan ooze real evil and hatred. Real fundamentalists are judgmental, condemn wrong behavior, and try to force their views and ways onto everyone else. The Phelps are not trying to convert anyone or save anyone, they are just attacking. This sort of cruel behavior is the mark of the agent provocateur, who wants a fight, not communication.
    I think this last is the clincher, if they were Christian, they would be trying to save people, convert them, but instead they deliberately alienate people to get them to support gay rights. Looks like a false flag operation to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
    (more)
  • Icarus 2012/07/06 21:47:30
    Other, undecided, etc.
    Icarus
    +1
    They're just a bunch of attention-seeking idiots, nothing more.
  • Truth M... Icarus 2012/07/07 03:11:12
    Truth Matters
    +1
    yay for Icky!
  • Icarus Truth M... 2012/07/07 09:50:55
    Icarus
    +1
    :-)

    How are you TM? Good to hear from you again.
  • Skeptikat 2012/07/06 21:06:46
  • 'Zedd Skeptikat 2012/07/06 23:25:38
  • Cunning Stunts 2012/07/06 20:57:28
    Westboro really are Fundamentalist Christian extremists who manage somehow to...
    Cunning Stunts
    +2
    ROFL. Sure they are so stupid and banal that they appear poes though their philosophies of ultra fundamentalism in a warped way is how I think they really are.

    The leading head of the hierarchy whoever they are either believe this crap or are using religion as a narcissistic tool in self attainment, like that pedo Mormon polygamist with 80+ wives that's on the loose (FBIs most wanted list).

    I think they actually believe this crap though.

    It's amazing what a bit of home schooling and rational denial can do.

    A great fiction parody is Kevin Smith's Red State.

  • Skeptikat Cunning... 2012/07/06 23:55:07
  • Truth M... Skeptikat 2012/07/07 03:13:34 (edited)
    Truth Matters
    +3
    Fred Phelps is a life-long DemonicRat.

    Conservative support the military and don't trash America. Treachery and hate is for Democrats
  • Skeptikat Truth M... 2012/07/07 03:19:25
  • Truth M... Skeptikat 2012/07/07 03:23:33
    Truth Matters
    +1
    You would have to be a complete idiot to believe the military favors Obama.
    I was in the military.
  • Skeptikat Truth M... 2012/07/07 03:26:27
  • Truth M... Skeptikat 2012/07/07 03:59:34 (edited)
    Truth Matters
    +1
    Links don't define facts. I am 100% confident that the military will be voting overwhelmingly Republican this November. Only an ignorant fool would think otherwise.

    Police, firefighters and military always favor the pro-american party.
  • Skeptikat Truth M... 2012/07/07 04:06:57
  • Truth M... Skeptikat 2012/07/07 04:23:39
    Truth Matters
    Yes, I can deny it. I don't believe your leftist media. Not for one second.

    I believe what I know from direct experience - not what left wing idiots in your media tell you
  • Skeptikat Truth M... 2012/07/07 04:32:05
  • Cunning... Skeptikat 2012/07/09 10:53:21
    Cunning Stunts
    I havent heard about that but will look into it.

    After Waco and Jonestown I could hardly be surprised though.
  • Skeptikat Cunning... 2012/07/09 11:16:56
  • Simeon~thegayliberal 2012/07/06 20:53:55 (edited)
    Other, undecided, etc.
    Simeon~thegayliberal
    +1
    Even they aren't truly following the Bible. The Bible says homosexuals should be killed. Not discriminated against, not hated, not protested: KILLED. The Westboro Baptist Church still falls short of that commandment.

    But what the Westboro Baptist Church really is, is a group of professional trolls who go around testing the limits of freedom of speech, hoping someone will violate theirs so they can sue and gain money as a result.
  • BattleBattlerBenji (PHAET) 2012/07/06 20:52:24
    Other, undecided, etc.
    BattleBattlerBenji (PHAET)
    +1
    They are fundies, pure and simple.
  • Truth M... BattleB... 2012/07/07 03:20:18
    Truth Matters
    +1
    In your dreams. Fundamentalists tend to support the military, vote Republican and love America. Fundamentalists don't approve of twisting scripture. That's what makes them fundamentalists.
  • BattleB... Truth M... 2012/07/07 16:33:41
    BattleBattlerBenji (PHAET)
    So you are saying they are normal Christians then?
  • Truth M... BattleB... 2012/07/07 18:13:51 (edited)
    Truth Matters
    +1
    Fundamentalists are real Christians. Fred Phelps Westboro cult is a cult - not fundamentalist. I'm not a fundamentalist, but fundamentalists are Christians. So are Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, etc.

    Westboro is a hate cult - not an authentic Christian denomination. Not all claims are valid. The Westboro cult hates America, the military and basically everything outside their family cult. Classic cult.
  • BattleB... Truth M... 2012/07/07 18:16:16
    BattleBattlerBenji (PHAET)
    So are you saying Baptists aren't an authentic Christian denomination?
  • Truth M... BattleB... 2012/07/07 19:14:00
    Truth Matters
    +1
    No, I am saying the Westboro cult is not Christian.

    Anyone can rip-off a 'Baptist' label. I can start a cult of UFO's and Elvis and call myself Baptist. They have no affiliations. They want you to be fooled by the label.
  • BattleB... Truth M... 2012/07/07 19:20:20
    BattleBattlerBenji (PHAET)
    Ah, the old "they aren't true Christians" spiel again. No wonder they still exist.
  • Truth M... BattleB... 2012/07/07 21:24:30
    Truth Matters
    +1
    Yes, that was the original point, You protested and lost on the merits.
    My point never changed - and stands intact.
  • BattleB... Truth M... 2012/07/07 21:32:48
    BattleBattlerBenji (PHAET)
    Whatever you say. At least I can relax in the comfort that they won't be travelling over here to try and spread their crap. It baffles me why they can't do the same to the Muslim fundies, but that's another thing.

    Toodles.
  • Truth M... BattleB... 2012/07/08 01:57:44 (edited)
    Truth Matters
    +1
    Two reasons:

    1) Muslims will kill you. Christian societies tolerate religious liberties.

    2) They won't travel to the UK because the UK doesn't have a first amendment vigorously protecting religious liberties - so they cannot exploit your legal system and win lawsuits. That's their real racket.

    See you
  • sockpuppet 2012/07/06 20:52:13
    Other, undecided, etc.
    sockpuppet
    +1
    A conspiracy theory about Westboro Baptist Church! The only thing that could make this funnier would be if it was propagated by a Muslim!

    This just gets better and better! :O)

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