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Evolution, creation and abiogenesis: an actual discussion.

Radical Ed 2012/07/04 06:32:07
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evolution and abiogenesis
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OK, people may know that i am heavy into this field of debate and like discussing biology and most other areas of science. Although i do enjoy doing that on sodahead, it would become apparent that people would just sling insults at each other after a while without properly discussing the matter. So i thought it would be a good idea to set up this, a question asking for people to discuss these openly but without the pettiness of shouting matches.

Here are the rules:

1. As the name suggests, evolution, creation and abiogenesis are the topics of discussion. please do not go off topic and start attempting to harass or moan about a particular group i.e. atheists, Christians, pagans etc.

2. i will be a moderator and will not be discussing, no matter how much i want to. if a SH admin wants to do this then it would be appreciated.

3. Any action that is deemed insulting or rude, i don't care who it is, will be blocked for a period of an hour. A healthy discussion and opinions do not require people to fling accusations at one another, remember that. whether this violates the TOS then too bad, all i want is an honest discussion. if mods feel this is wrong then i can take myself elsewhere.
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Top Opinion

  • elijahin24 2012/07/05 13:51:47
    evolution
    elijahin24
    +10
    The proof of evolution is overwhelming. The proof of a god is nonexistent. I understand that some believe in evolution as guided by God, and that the Genisis Story, is alegorical. I can accept this idea as reasonable. I don't share it, but I respect it.

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  • Live Free Or Die 2013/04/16 23:11:13
    evolution
    Live Free Or Die
    I don't know much about abiogenesis, but my feeling is it is part of the whole evolutionary process.
  • Burnjuan 2013/04/13 17:57:53
    Undecided
    Burnjuan
    Not enough evidence.
  • debhead 2013/04/11 08:24:55
    evolution and abiogenesis
    debhead
    +1
    I believe that it was a mixture of molecules mixing at some point that started "life" and either evolved or was wiped out as time went on.
  • QUIS EVADET 2013/04/10 20:07:12
    evolution and abiogenesis
    QUIS EVADET
  • taylordoesntdeserve 2013/04/10 16:05:51
    abiogenesis
    taylordoesntdeserve
    +1
    Oops, I meant to click evolution and abiogenesis. I support the idea that life arose out of certain conditions. What we call life is simply a certain way of ordering and structuring the basic elements of life, namely Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and...Sulfur is another one I believe. Certain combinations of these elements yield life.
  • POWERSHAKER 2013/04/10 11:32:21
    creation
    POWERSHAKER
    Anyone who denies God created everything is either deluding themselves or they've been fed lies by someone else who thinks their knowledge infinite in measure. In my opinion, such arrogance is truly astonishing. Something does not come from nothing without someone making all material things a possibility. It takes a Great Spirit with infinite knowledge to be the catalyst of all things.
  • no no POWERSH... 2013/04/10 22:46:53
    no no
    +1
    "Anyone who denies {evolution} created everything is either deluding themselves or they've been fed lies by someone else who thinks their knowledge infinite in measure. In my opinion, such arrogance is truly astonishing. {Something} does not come from nothing without {something} making all material things a possibility. It takes {an unusual big bang} to be the catalyst of all things. Perhaps the big bang had some help, but the scientific fact of evolution is just that a scientific fact. As science continues to advance, more and greater facts will "evolve" and emerge in generations to come.
  • POWERSH... no no 2013/04/10 23:22:46
    POWERSHAKER
    You're wrong about evolution. Evolution is not a scientific fact. It's a total lie based on the theories of human beings. It might sound good, but that doesn't make it true. Also, you can't prove the big bang is true. That's only a theory, too. You either trust in men or you trust God. Men fail where God doesn't.
  • no no POWERSH... 2013/04/11 10:04:18
    no no
    Obviously you don't read a lot, or are very selective, and not elective in your choice of reading material. God is a theory based on a select group of humans that decided that rather than having a god for various things, there would be just one. Honestly do you read what you write, and did you understand what I wrote, obviously not.
  • no no 2013/04/10 08:38:04
    evolution
    no no
    +1
    The scientific facts speak for themselves. Bottom line, and as science continues to advance, more and greater facts will "evolve" and emerge in generations to come.
  • no no no no 2013/04/13 20:09:47
    no no
    This guy put it much better than I "Religion was created to give men earthly power over others. The myths and legends used were created to answer those burning questions, where do we come from, why are we here and what happens when we die. Those "answers" were based on speculation, of course, because they lacked the foundations of scientific inquiry. If it sounded reasonable (Which then begs the question, how can reason evolved from unreasonable beings?) it was taken as fact.

    As time wore on, the way the world was viewed changed. People started finding explanations for things which previously had been attributed to these "reasonable explanations" they'd been saddled with for thousands of years. The Earth wasn't flat after all, nor was it at the center of the universe, germs caused infections, not 'vapors", diseases could be prevented and some things even cured them. All of which could happen without any interference or influence from deities.

    From the vastness of the cosmos a thousand years ago to sub-atomic interactions today, the places for "God" to hide have grown fewer and fewer as more and more of the way our universe works are revealed to minds more intent on proving their positions with facts than maintaining power over others with lies and myth. The answers to th...











    This guy put it much better than I "Religion was created to give men earthly power over others. The myths and legends used were created to answer those burning questions, where do we come from, why are we here and what happens when we die. Those "answers" were based on speculation, of course, because they lacked the foundations of scientific inquiry. If it sounded reasonable (Which then begs the question, how can reason evolved from unreasonable beings?) it was taken as fact.

    As time wore on, the way the world was viewed changed. People started finding explanations for things which previously had been attributed to these "reasonable explanations" they'd been saddled with for thousands of years. The Earth wasn't flat after all, nor was it at the center of the universe, germs caused infections, not 'vapors", diseases could be prevented and some things even cured them. All of which could happen without any interference or influence from deities.

    From the vastness of the cosmos a thousand years ago to sub-atomic interactions today, the places for "God" to hide have grown fewer and fewer as more and more of the way our universe works are revealed to minds more intent on proving their positions with facts than maintaining power over others with lies and myth. The answers to those burning questions are somewhat less than satisfying from a mystical point of view, but it provides us with some realistic perspective.

    Where do we come from? We appear to have evolved from minuscule shrew-like semi-mammals over hundreds of millions of years.

    Why are we here? See the first question's answer. We're here. If you're looking for direction, try helping mankind without hurting it. That tends to work better for everyone.

    What happens when we die? Decomposition. If you're looking for continued consciousness, the odds aren't good for that. There is no factual evidence that humans possess a "soul". There is considerable evidence to suggest that most people can't emotionally deal with the thought of nonexistence and would rather make up more comforting, if completely inaccurate, rationalizations in order to face the inevitability of it.

    The bright side is that those who believe in life after death won't be around at all to be disappointed by the likelihood that there isn't any. The problem, of course, is that so many people live to die that they have no qualms about killing or harassing others because of that life after death belief. If we treated each other with the certainty that this life is ALL WE GET, then we may actually be nicer to others because we know our religions are just a pile of mythical BS."



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  • Heptarch 2013/04/10 01:17:35 (edited)
    evolution and abiogenesis
    Heptarch
    My personal belief is that this planet was "seeded" with the building blocks of life, probably by a comet.
  • Jimmy Earl 2012/12/01 03:55:13
  • Kookieless The Sexy Nihilis... 2012/11/11 06:35:42
  • Jimmy Earl Kookiel... 2012/12/01 03:56:15
    Jimmy Earl
    Sounds nutty like evolution.....
  • Kookiel... Jimmy Earl 2012/12/01 03:59:01
  • Jimmy Earl Kookiel... 2012/12/01 04:21:09
    Jimmy Earl
    Evolution has never been proven...you assume what they call micro evolution leads to what they call macro evolution (what people refer to as "evolution", like from a primate to a human or a dinosaur to a chicken).
    You seem to have a rather simplistic view of the subject....also which evolution is proven? Darwinian, Neo-Darwinian, Punctuated-Equilibrium or Panspermia?
  • Kookiel... Jimmy Earl 2012/12/01 04:33:40
  • Jimmy Earl Kookiel... 2012/12/01 04:42:02
    Jimmy Earl
    LOL-I have his book-infact I have 3 of his books and have read over a thousand pages of Dawkins-I find him to be rather simple minded, weak minded and feeble minded...... (I have the greatest show on earth, ancestor's tale & the god delusion).
    He only has a following becasue he is so hateful in his rhetoric that strikes a note with those who despise Christianity.
    Other than that I get a genuine kick out of some of his silliness...except we are dealing with life and death here. So it ain't so funny...
  • Fanghur Jimmy Earl 2013/01/27 14:23:19
    Fanghur
    +3
    Microevolution refers to change within a species, such as the different breeds of dog, and macroevolution refers to speciation and evolutionary changes at or above the species level. Sorry, but both of these have been observed numerous times. Do a google search for 'talkorigins, macroevolution'. Even most of the creationist websites accept this, although they deliberately misdefine their terms so that they don't have to admit it.
  • Heptarch Jimmy Earl 2013/04/10 01:19:27
    Heptarch
    +2
    There is no difference between micro- and macroevolution. They are the same thing. Microevolution is the tiny, visible steps of macroevolution.
  • gbruneaulanglois 2012/10/26 08:17:00
    evolution and abiogenesis
    gbruneaulanglois
    +4
    I don't see the point of this discussion...There is no "discussion". Evolution is a proven fact. Period.
  • Jimmy Earl gbrunea... 2012/12/01 03:57:11
    Jimmy Earl
    If it was - then there would be no discussion.....you can say all day it is fact-but apparently not...especially in the light of genetics...
  • gbrunea... Jimmy Earl 2012/12/01 08:14:05
    gbruneaulanglois
    +2
    There is still no discussion among any scientists or any thinkers of any kind. The only people making a discussion about it are angry religious fundamentalists over the internet.
  • Jimmy Earl gbrunea... 2012/12/02 10:25:39
    Jimmy Earl
    If you truly believe that then you are both uneducated on the subject and close minded. If evolution were a fact, then there would be no discussion along these lines...but since there is...kinda undermines your claims...

    I used to believe in the myth of evolution until I studies it in detail in 1999 and was stunned by what it really is---circular reasoning--which isn't science...although the hostility of those who cling to it (refusing to even acknowledge there are those who legitimately disagree with them based on the SCIENCE) is somewhat weird.
  • gbrunea... Jimmy Earl 2012/12/03 01:43:29
    gbruneaulanglois
    Give me an example of circular thinking.
  • Jimmy Earl gbrunea... 2012/12/07 10:53:09
    Jimmy Earl
    The idea that evolution is true, so despite the lack of evidence--it must be true becasue we are here....for example, in the book Genome by M. Ridley, he points out that based on genetics-it is impossible for 2 chromosomes to fuse together--yet because we are here, it must have happened....
    Also, you beilieve in the LITERAL same thing as telling me that my car self assembled itself....so why should i take anything you say serious...seriously?
  • Heptarch Jimmy Earl 2013/04/10 01:22:36
    Heptarch
    "The idea that evolution is true, so despite the lack of evidence--it must be true becasue we are here"

    That "argument" breaks down immediately because there IS evidence. Plenty of it.
  • Raithere Jimmy Earl 2013/04/10 05:21:36
    Raithere
    +2
    "it must be true becasue we are here"

    No. Evolution is true because we can observe it, we can measure it, and the theory fits the available facts.

    " based on genetics-it is impossible for 2 chromosomes to fuse together"

    No, it's not. There are numerous examples of chromosomal fusion and laboratory evidence as well.

    http://www.americanscientist....
    http://genome.cshlp.org/conte...
    http://www.disabled-world.com...
    http://pandasthumb.org/archiv...

    "LITERAL same thing as telling me that my car self assembled itself."

    Terrible analogy. Your car has no mechanism for self-assembly, your body does. In fact it did assemble itself from a single cell.
  • Fanghur Jimmy Earl 2013/02/17 13:23:32
    Fanghur
    +1
    Genetics are one of the reasons that we know it is a fact. Are you aware the the head of the NIH Francis Collins, who is an evangelical Christian who believes in the talking snake and magic apple, and who formerly worked on the Human Genome Project has said that even if we had no fossils whatsoever, the DNA evidence alone is more than enough to prove common ancestry? This is a creationist who I despise or many reasons, and yet even he is convinced that evolution is in fact a FACT.
  • Random 2012/08/09 14:50:56
    evolution and abiogenesis
    Random
    +1
    I believe in a deity, I just can't see said deity sitting there, twiddling their thumbs watching as none of the organisms do anything.
    Evolution is the best explanation of diversity of life, while Abiogenesis is interesting indeed. In any case, telling someone to crawl back into the primordial soup and try again is a good insult.
  • Scandalf 2012/07/31 10:19:02
    abiogenesis
    Scandalf
    I picked this one because it was the answere that made less sense out of all.
    What does it stand for? Abiogenesis without evolution!?!
    People, plants, mushrooms all formed spontaneously without external inference!?!
  • abycinnamon BN-1 2012/07/12 16:01:07
    evolution and abiogenesis
    abycinnamon BN-1
    +4
    definitely abiogenesis and evolution - which is to say science. This has been nicely defended by others. Not magic, not fantasy, not mythology.
  • 8bitgonemad 2012/07/10 06:18:55
    evolution and abiogenesis
    8bitgonemad
    +6
    We have been able to demonstrate and prove that life can form from nonliving matter. Originally RNA(Ribonucleic acid), a molecular string made up of four basic building blocks, gave rise to DNA(Deoxyribonucleic acid) Which is needed for life. Earth was able to support life with its perfect conditions in the goldilocks zone (The habitable zone for life, which has actually been found on many planets in our galaxy alone). Life was able to rise, but we still don't know the full process of how life formed on our planet, but that does not mean we should fill the spaces in science with God. It is ridiculous to assume that because we have not found full answers, God was responsible for the answers that are currently unknown. After life was formed, genetic mutations through errors in the copying of the genetic code, created changes in species through these mutations. Most mutations do not do anything in an organism, while some are unfavorable, and while others are favorable, giving species traits. Favorable mutations would help a species survive and reproduce through the game of life through these favorable traits, passing on their traits to their descendants. In order to adapt to various environmental conditions, organisms develop into distinct species due to differences in the demand...
    We have been able to demonstrate and prove that life can form from nonliving matter. Originally RNA(Ribonucleic acid), a molecular string made up of four basic building blocks, gave rise to DNA(Deoxyribonucleic acid) Which is needed for life. Earth was able to support life with its perfect conditions in the goldilocks zone (The habitable zone for life, which has actually been found on many planets in our galaxy alone). Life was able to rise, but we still don't know the full process of how life formed on our planet, but that does not mean we should fill the spaces in science with God. It is ridiculous to assume that because we have not found full answers, God was responsible for the answers that are currently unknown. After life was formed, genetic mutations through errors in the copying of the genetic code, created changes in species through these mutations. Most mutations do not do anything in an organism, while some are unfavorable, and while others are favorable, giving species traits. Favorable mutations would help a species survive and reproduce through the game of life through these favorable traits, passing on their traits to their descendants. In order to adapt to various environmental conditions, organisms develop into distinct species due to differences in the demands driven by the environmental circumstances also know as natural selection. Different species eventually branch off into other species through mutation (changes in an organisms genes through errors in copying, or natural causes), natural selection (Changes in an organism through the demands of the environment), genetic drift (Changes in an organism through groups of the same species reproducing in an isolated area away from the original species), and gene flow (Change through movement of genes from one population to another). Much evidence supports evolution such as transitional forms in the fossil record, chemical and anatomical similarities, geographic distribution of related species, genetic changes over generations, and more. The fact that we have different forms of dogs in the world, is because of evolution (the change in a species over time). I hope this helped everyone who needed to know
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  • abycinn... 8bitgon... 2012/07/12 15:57:25
    abycinnamon BN-1
    precisely.
  • Maddog 2012/07/08 20:39:24
    evolution
    Maddog
    Who cares how we got here? It's difficult enough to deal with the "here and now"without agonizing over these disparate theories! Sorry, but I just can't get excited over this topic.
  • 8bitgon... Maddog 2012/07/10 05:27:31
    8bitgonemad
    +1
    You are not human
  • Maddog 8bitgon... 2012/07/10 15:13:08
    Maddog
    Apparently not.
  • Thank you but no... 2012/07/07 00:26:28
    evolution and abiogenesis
    Thank you but no...
    +1
    The only mechanisms for which there is any evidence.
  • elijahin24 2012/07/05 13:51:47
    evolution
    elijahin24
    +10
    The proof of evolution is overwhelming. The proof of a god is nonexistent. I understand that some believe in evolution as guided by God, and that the Genisis Story, is alegorical. I can accept this idea as reasonable. I don't share it, but I respect it.

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