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Does gun crime make you want harsher gun control laws?

La 2012/05/21 12:53:14
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Yes, it does
No, it just makes me want to buy more guns
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  • Demonic Rat Hunter 2012/05/21 17:49:13 (edited)
    No, it just makes me want to buy more guns
    Demonic Rat Hunter
    +8
    Criminals don't obey gun laws or any laws that's why they're criminals. Much of what you want to call gun crime is committed by repeat Felons who are not allowed guns. guns outlawed

    I prefer to have the ability to shoot the criminal when he commits a crime against me at least he won't do it again.

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  • jere.ch... ALofRI 2012/06/20 15:43:24
    jere.chievres
    +1
    I don't whip either of those objects out in public! ;-)
  • Diana 2012/05/21 17:29:36
    No, it just makes me want to buy more guns
    Diana
    +6
    No matter what laws there are.The bad guys will always have guns.
  • merlinskiss 2012/05/21 17:24:33
    Other
    merlinskiss
    +7
    No. Guns aren't the problem. Just enforce the ones we already have on criminals.
  • darwolf 2012/05/21 17:20:25
    No, it just makes me want to buy more guns
    darwolf
  • compufreek 2012/05/21 17:15:10
    Other
    compufreek
    +6
    Terrible answers. Guns don't kill, it is the idiot using it!!
  • Assassin~ Badass Buzz Guru 2012/05/21 17:08:10
    No, it just makes me want to buy more guns
    Assassin~ Badass Buzz Guru
    +4
    Not really, I don't buy guns. One is enough for my purposes. I don't think that removing guns from people who obey the law is the answer .
  • Clay Slayer 2012/05/21 16:38:54
    Other
    Clay Slayer
    +5
    Gun Control does not work.. Look where the worst crime areas are and then look at their gun control record... Chicago, NewYork, Pitsburg.. ETC ETC.. Also the poster doesnt list that murders that are committed with other impliments...

    FBI Stats,, only 12 percent of murders are comitted with a firearm.. 39% are committed with the bare hands...the other 49 percent are committed with virtually any impliment you can name...I can kill you with a pencil......
  • La Clay Sl... 2012/05/22 00:30:13
    La
    Most of it is gun. I can't copy the picture so I'll just put the link.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/new...
  • hubjinkom 2012/05/21 16:27:55
    Yes, it does
    hubjinkom
    +1
    Seriously, America - what do you expect?

    By the way, since everyone's mentioning the absence of these figures, here are the most recent intentional homicide rates per county (per 100, 000 of the population) for the countries listed in the question:

    New Zealand:1.41
    Sweden: 0.86
    Australia: 1.16
    UK: 1.23 *
    Canada: 1.62

    USA: 4.8

    * This figure includes Scotland and Northern Ireland, which are typically a fair degree higher than England and Wales, so this figure will almost certainly have been brought up by their inclusion.

    Including these stats doesn't really help the case against gun control laws, does it?
  • hubjinkom hubjinkom 2012/05/21 16:40:47
    hubjinkom
    +1
    Also refutes the "people will still commit crimes but with different weapons" arguments that have been going around on here
  • jere.ch... hubjinkom 2012/05/21 21:45:37
    jere.chievres
    +2
    Both of your positions are bogus.
  • hubjinkom jere.ch... 2012/05/21 21:49:31
    hubjinkom
    +2
    A lovely, reasoned argument there, thanks :)
  • charles_1 hubjinkom 2012/05/21 21:46:08
    charles_1
    +2
    No it doesn't. The figures you quoted are all homicides including those without guns. So the only thing this shows is people kill each other a lot more in the US. While I have no doubt that a lot of guns are used to commit homicides, that isn't the data you used.

    The actual rate per capita of gun related homicides in the US is 3.0 per 100K. Canada is 0.5. (Source UNODC 2011 study).

    Canada has 13 guns per 100, US has 88 guns per 100. So the availability of guns is roughly 6.77 times as high in the US than Canada. (Number of guns per capita is not a very accurate measure because so many guns are illegally owned in all countries.)

    But in Canada 0.5/1.62 = 30.8% of the homicides are by gun.

    But in the US 3/4.8 = 62.5% of the homicides are by gun.

    So the US has almost 7 times the number of guns, but guns are only used 2x as often in homicides. You might conclude that this supports more gun control. Or you could conclude that since gun related homicides didn't scale linearly that the US already has better gun controls. You can read the statistic either way. Neither is particularly accurate.

    I am not convinced this supports more gun control. Our problem isn't which weapon is used to kill someone, our problem is that we kill each other at (4.8/1.62) 3x the rate. I would postulate that most...
    No it doesn't. The figures you quoted are all homicides including those without guns. So the only thing this shows is people kill each other a lot more in the US. While I have no doubt that a lot of guns are used to commit homicides, that isn't the data you used.

    The actual rate per capita of gun related homicides in the US is 3.0 per 100K. Canada is 0.5. (Source UNODC 2011 study).

    Canada has 13 guns per 100, US has 88 guns per 100. So the availability of guns is roughly 6.77 times as high in the US than Canada. (Number of guns per capita is not a very accurate measure because so many guns are illegally owned in all countries.)

    But in Canada 0.5/1.62 = 30.8% of the homicides are by gun.

    But in the US 3/4.8 = 62.5% of the homicides are by gun.

    So the US has almost 7 times the number of guns, but guns are only used 2x as often in homicides. You might conclude that this supports more gun control. Or you could conclude that since gun related homicides didn't scale linearly that the US already has better gun controls. You can read the statistic either way. Neither is particularly accurate.

    I am not convinced this supports more gun control. Our problem isn't which weapon is used to kill someone, our problem is that we kill each other at (4.8/1.62) 3x the rate. I would postulate that most of this is related to the war on drugs and our criminal justice system constantly letting violent people out (ie: recidivism). The Canadian recidivism rate is about 45%, the US is about 70%, hmmm that is nearly twice the recidivism rate. Maybe that accounts for 2x the gun use, we just are ineffective at taking the gun users off the streets and keeping them off the streets. I believe the US is just culturally more violent because we tolerate more and make more excuses for it.
    (more)
  • hubjinkom charles_1 2012/05/21 22:01:02
    hubjinkom
    My point mainly was that people were complaining about the lack of homicide per X of the population figures. I provided them. I never intended to imply they were gun-related homicides.

    Proportion of murders involving guns vs proportion of guns in population might well seem like a smart way to look at it, but in fact this proves nothing without looking into the laws regarding other types of weapon too, which I'm assuming would be similarly lax in the US, thus providing higher murder rates using knives, poisons, etc, which would then counteract the effect of the easy availability of guns.

    Furthermore, I would argue that the presence of so many guns causes (or maybe just is a symptom of) a lower value placed on the lives of others within American society -- see also capital punishment and other such issues. This in turn is bound to increase homicide rates and therefore DECREASE public security.

    To be honest, I don't think statistics do much good in this debate since there are so many factors involved -- I just posted them because the demand was there. Even if they are ambiguous, I hope I have shown that they are not necessarily supporting lower gun controls, which is a conclusion that many people were jumping to because of their absence (ie they assumed that they'd been deliberately omitted by the original question asker because they conflicted with their argument).
  • charles_1 hubjinkom 2012/05/23 01:18:02
    charles_1
    I'll agree statistics are pretty meaningless in this debate. The countries selected also are a bit selective. Many countries have much higher rates. And the way data is collected varies substantially from country to country.

    However I still disagree about the guns being the problem. I think it's cultural. In the military the number of guns per person and availability is astronomical. But the murder rate is incredibly low (not counting the appropriate use of the weapons in wars and missions). The culture of the military is different. I'm not saying that civilian society should be like the military. Just saying the guns aren't the problem, the people are. I have to wonder what the stats look like if you take out drug related homicides,
  • hubjinkom charles_1 2012/05/23 01:29:41
    hubjinkom
    +1
    Surprisingly few countries of a comparable level of development have even similar rates, never mind higher. But yeah stats have so many problems when being used like this -- they can give a general idea, but it's silly to read too much into them.

    I would agree that it could well be cultural, but I would also argue that since civilian society can't be like the military, then the people and the culture will not be like one in which guns can exist safely. I.E. There's almost a division between A) military-style culture with guns, or B) civilian-style culture without guns.
  • Clay Sl... charles_1 2012/05/22 01:36:35
    Clay Slayer
    Then they dont take into concideration that the US population is 3 thimes that of canada, and those other small countries.....
  • charles_1 Clay Sl... 2012/05/23 01:21:22
    charles_1
    They are rates per capita. But I agree that ignors local population density and that crime and homicide in particular probably scale more than linearly with density. I also think drug crime factors heavily into this and would need to be considered seperately for any kind of rational look at the role guns play in crime.
  • Clay Sl... charles_1 2012/05/23 13:21:16
    Clay Slayer
    The question should be, How many Murders are committed by people that legally own firearms... This is not where the focus should be, but on the criminals.. You cant slap them on the wrist and expect them to comply with the law...
  • Clay Sl... hubjinkom 2012/05/22 01:35:08
    Clay Slayer
    +1
    Those homicide rates are sKewed as those are total numbers not by weapon.....
  • hubjinkom Clay Sl... 2012/05/22 14:30:53
    hubjinkom
    +1
    I did put the gun-related figures somewhere else on this discussion, but I don't really have time to find them right now.
  • Clay Sl... hubjinkom 2012/05/22 14:37:19
    Clay Slayer
    For every gun related stat you provide, I can provide one for more objects that are used in violence than guns....

    Look at the countries that have stringent gun laws, Sure they dont have many shootings, but their laws have yet to deter those that want to have them and use them... Also their crime rates escalated, In England for example, stabbings and knife assaults went through the roof.....You cannot just look at Gun related crimes without looking at the entire picture,,, If you see the entire picture, guns are not used as much as other objects......
  • hubjinkom Clay Sl... 2012/05/22 14:49:45
    hubjinkom
    +1
    Actually, in England, other crimes did not go "through the roof". Just as a proportion of crimes committed knife crime increased dramatically. This is because the proportion using guns plummeted... Nobody's saying that guns are the only weapon used, just that guns are weapons which are used and their overwhelming presence on the streets is reducing public safety.

    It does deter those who want to have them and use them clearly, because of the significantly lower gun-related crime rates since enforcing them.

    You ask for gun-specific figures, then criticise their use? That makes sense I guess.............
  • Clay Sl... hubjinkom 2012/05/22 14:59:48 (edited)
    Clay Slayer
    I didnt ask for any statistics,, but you cannot focus on just one venue.. All must be taken in to get the entire picture.. Guns are used in Far less numbers than other instruments....

    I have Friends from England that come to the US to shoot skeet with me.. I have taught Canadians the shotgun sports... My friend in england tells me of the spike in crime after the government took all the firearms..

    I find it strange in the States where there are less restrictions on firearms, there is far less crime.. Wonder why that is??

    Yep Less gun related crime due to restrictions,, however self defeating because it raises the incidents of other tools being used in place of the guns....

    Circular Logic at its best.... GEE! we got less gun related crimes, but more people are being stabbed with knives now..But at least we dont have as many guns... A round and round and round they go....


    Weapons used or cause of death include guns, stabbing, blunt objects, strangulation, arson, and more.

    Now which of the above should we ban,,, Hammers?,, Matches? Rope? Knives? Guns? after all they are all inanimate objects,,, It takes someone to utilize all of them.... You cannot blame firearms...
  • hubjinkom Clay Sl... 2012/05/22 15:33:47
    hubjinkom
    +1
    That's not what circular logic means, by the way -- that's when the conclusion is the justification for the initial premise.

    I am in England right now -- I've lived here all my life, as has the majority of my family and friends. I know what's been going on in England.

    I've never said that guns fire themselves. What I'm saying is that you can't expect gun crime to drop when there are still guns everywhere.
    We have tight restrictions on knife sales and carrying them in public. This has cut knife crime. Since we tightened our gun control laws, gun crime dropped. I'm not saying "all guns will kill someone of their own accord", and nobody is.

    All that's being said is that if there is no gun there there is no gunshot wound. This has even been shown around the world, although it beggars belief that it needs to be shown for people to believe it.

    ALSO, "I find it strange in the States where there are less restrictions on firearms, there is far less crime.. Wonder why that is?? "
    Well, that's because it simply isn't true. The overall crime rate in America is the highest in the world, out of countries where figures are available, and almost 10 times that of India, whose population is about 4 times as large.
    [I couldn't quickly find any reliable stats per capita or on China -- but hey, it's China, that's to be expected sometimes.]
  • Clay Sl... hubjinkom 2012/05/22 17:55:09
    Clay Slayer
    The point being is if you drop one weapon another takes its place....
  • hubjinkom Clay Sl... 2012/05/22 21:36:21
    hubjinkom
    +1
    But you see the overall crime and murder rates with higher gun control are much lower than in the US, right?

    Is your argument seriously that people will always get hold of some weapon or other so we might as well let absolutely anybody go and buy a gun?

    I would also argue that there is a general cultural attitude of everyone feeling justified in owning some weapon or other, which makes a country a very dangerous place to be, and which lax gun control is bound to contribute to.
  • none 2012/05/21 16:24:50
    No, it just makes me want to buy more guns
    none
    +2
    It makes me want states to make it easier for qualified citizens to obtain a Concealed Carry Permit.
  • jere.ch... none 2012/05/21 21:46:06
    jere.chievres
    +2
    It is easy enough.
  • none jere.ch... 2012/05/21 22:08:56
    none
    +1
    Try in California, not too easy unless you're a politician or a movie star.
  • La none 2012/05/22 00:32:04
    La
    California is already the state with the highest amount of gun deaths >.>
  • Kat ♪.B... La 2012/05/22 14:17:35
    Kat ♪.BTO-t-BCRA-F~PWCM~
    And the most supposedly gun hating liberals, makes you wonder doesn't it.
  • none La 2012/05/22 19:51:16
    none
    +1
    Highest population, highest population of welfare recipients, highest population of illegal aliens, some of the toughest gun laws, very hard to get a concealed carry permit. All those factors contribute in a big way to the gun deaths.
  • jere.ch... none 2012/05/23 00:23:00
    jere.chievres
    +1
    Move to Nevada or Arizona the have cojones there.
  • none jere.ch... 2012/05/23 17:06:18
    none
    I've been considering Montana or Wyoming. Moving away from the liberal insantity in the land of the fruits and nuts is getting closer to reality.
  • JoeM~PWCM~JLA 2012/05/21 16:21:30
    No, it just makes me want to buy more guns
    JoeM~PWCM~JLA
    +2
    Guns have never murdered anyone. Murderers have used guns to commit crime.
  • La JoeM~PW... 2012/05/22 00:32:35
    La
    Yes, but consider this:

    "It’s not as if a 19-year-old in the United States is more evil than a 19-year-old in Australia—there’s no evidence for that," Hemenway explains. "But a 19-year-old in America can very easily get a pistol. That’s very hard to do in Australia. So when there’s a bar fight in Australia, somebody gets punched out or hit with a beer bottle. Here, they get shot."

    In general, guns don’t induce people to commit crimes. "What guns do is make crimes lethal," says Hemenway. They also make suicide attempts lethal: about 60 percent of suicides in America involve guns. "If you try to kill yourself with drugs, there’s a 2 to 3 percent chance of dying," he explains. "With guns, the chance is 90 percent."
  • Clay Sl... La 2012/05/22 01:38:37
    Clay Slayer
    Understand they are outlawing swords in Australia,, what is next? butcher knives???
  • La Clay Sl... 2012/05/22 09:16:31
    La
    You can have a sword >.> You need to be over 18, etc. I know many people with swords.

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