Quantcast

Cops shoot man holding a knife: Justifiable or unjustifiable?

Max 2012/02/18 18:23:37
You!
Add Photos & Videos


























Mesa police shoot, kill man
holding woman

by Mark D. Lauffer - Feb. 18, 2012 08:57 AM
The Republic | azcentral.com


Mesa police shot and killed a man who was
holding a woman at knifepoint early
Saturday, a police spokesman said.

Police responded to a domestic violence call
at the Coral Point Apartments in the 2300
block of West Main Street at 12:21 a.m. There
they found a man with a knife in an
apartment holding a woman “in an armlock”
around her throat, Detective Steve Berry
said.

Officers were able to enter the apartment
and safely get four children out. They
negotiated with the man for half an hour but
he would not let the woman go, Berry said.

The man grew more agitated and made
increasingly threatening gestures toward the
woman and officers when he was shot, Berry
said.

The man was pronounced dead at the scene,
Berry said. The woman was bruised but not
seriously injured in the incident. No officers
were hurt. No identifications were released
as of midmorning.

Copyright © 2012 azcentral.com. All rights
reserved.
Users of this site agree to the Terms of Service,
Privacy Policy/Your California Privacy Rights

and
Ad Choices

terms service privacy policyyour california privacy rights ad choices nbsp
Advertisement
service privacy policyyour california privacy rights ad choices nbsp advertisement
Add a comment above

Top Opinion

  • zbacku 2012/02/18 18:48:48
    Justifiable
    zbacku
    +9
    yes
    Let's see.....Woman about to be killed. But the would be killer is dead. Sounds good to me.

Sort By
  • Most Raves
  • Least Raves
  • Oldest
  • Newest
Opinions

  • autumnfae 2012/02/26 22:44:02
    Justifiable
    autumnfae
    no doubt... he had a knife to the woman .. there were 4 kids in the house.. and they attempted to talk him down first
  • gottaluvtish 2012/02/24 22:47:44
    Justifiable
    gottaluvtish
    they gave him every opportunity to surrender and that woman had no choice at all!
  • Ms.w2p 2012/02/20 17:00:16 (edited)
    Undecided
    Ms.w2p
    I dont think they should of killed him hurt him yes they could of shot him in the arm,leg they shot to kill when they shot him he was still holding her they could of had two fatalitys instead of one mesa police is known to be trigger happy!
  • ghostrider 2012/02/20 02:20:13
    Justifiable
    ghostrider
    If the story is as straightforward as stated, absolutely justified.
  • DuncanONeil 2012/02/19 22:46:46
    Undecided
    DuncanONeil
    Depends!
  • Candace Washington 2012/02/19 18:34:36
    Justifiable
    Candace Washington
    +2
    they warned him and he didn't listen. that's what you get
  • Seonag 2012/02/19 15:10:31
    Justifiable
    Seonag
    +2
    Based on "The man grew more agitated and made increasingly threatening gestures toward the woman and officers when he was shot, Berry said" it was totally justifiable.
  • closinyou 2012/02/19 12:18:03
    Justifiable
    closinyou
    +1
    Put yourself in the shoes of an officer who protects and defends, sometimes at the expense of their life, for those they don't even know, and not only is it justified, it's absolutely necessary!
  • KrissyRawr 2012/02/19 09:59:04
    Undecided
    KrissyRawr
    It depends on the circumstances and whether they intended to kill him by shooting him or just injuring him so he couldn't attack them, like shooting his leg or something
  • BackWoo... KrissyRawr 2012/02/19 13:10:18
    BackWoodsMike
    +2
    One of the reasons I cringe when I watch a TV show or movie where some cracker jack Cop saves the day by shooting the suspect in the arm or leg to defuse a situation, is that it is completely bogus.

    Years of experience through thousands of studied incidents has lead not only to effective shooting scenario training but the law and guidelines that we follow.

    I simple shot to the leg (even if the officer hits their target) would only cause more anger in the subject, and 99 times out of 100, the suspect would have slit the womans throat.

    This is a fraction of what we are taught at the Academy, but it does apply to this discussion.

    As you can plainly see, both use of deadly force in connection with an arrest and use of force for the prevention of crime apply to this particular case.

    http://www.sodahead.com/livin...

    30% of our calls are domestics, and they are one of the most dangerous calls we can go on, especially when there are weapons involved.

    This incident was not a TV show or a movie.. it was real life, and in real life there are consequences, not retakes.
  • Rusty S... BackWoo... 2012/02/19 13:45:30
    Rusty Shackleford
    +1
    I doubt she will hear you, some people prefer their dream world to reality.
  • BackWoo... Rusty S... 2012/02/19 15:46:35
    BackWoodsMike
    +1
    You never know..

    Even with all that I see going on, I still have faith in humanity and the ability for people to learn.
  • KrissyRawr BackWoo... 2012/02/19 14:03:22
    KrissyRawr
    Wow..okay then..well thankfully it's not exactly something I know, nor have to, is it? I don't understand why you have stated your opinion to me when it's already on the post, I wasn't going by the law or anything, I was saying my personal opinion, and I wouldn't know what shooting someone in the leg would do if they had a hostage, you wouldn't think of shooting them in the leg if they had a hostage, I meant if he was coming at the cop with the knife. I don't even know the story behind this question -_-
  • BackWoo... KrissyRawr 2012/02/19 15:54:29
    BackWoodsMike
    No problem.. I wasn't attempting to lecture you (sorry if it sounded that way), I was just passing along the facts, which is not a personal opinion, but a way of educating you on a subject that by your original post http://www.sodahead.com/livin... , was confused about.

    Have a safe day..
  • KrissyRawr BackWoo... 2012/02/20 03:13:21
    KrissyRawr
    +1
    Lol it's fine don't worry about it, I get into too many arguments on here so I came off a little hasty too, sorry for that :)
  • sockpuppet 2012/02/19 09:32:45
    Justifiable
    sockpuppet
    +2
    Yeah! Good call.
  • Somkey the Hores 2012/02/19 08:57:12 (edited)
    Undecided
    Somkey the Hores
    +2
    It depends on what the knifer is doing with it.. In this case, yes. I would have shot the perp in the face. We practiced this very scenario.
  • goatman112003 2012/02/19 07:14:29
    Justifiable
    goatman112003
    +3
    Thats a dude who needed a cap in his ass.
  • Bob, the reasonable one 2012/02/19 06:52:28
    Justifiable
    Bob, the reasonable one
    +3
    Finally a story where the cop's aim was good to go....I'm sick and tired of stories where they miss all the time....
  • Robbb 2012/02/19 06:20:34
    Justifiable
    Robbb
    +3
    I supose the first responsibility of the police was to protect the woman from harm. and that is what they did. It is a terible shame it had to end that way though.
  • Somkey ... Robbb 2012/02/19 08:58:57
    Somkey the Hores
    +2
    Tell it to the perp.
  • Robbb Somkey ... 2012/02/19 10:00:21
    Robbb
    +3
    I think he must have had a prety good idea what could hapen to him when you consider the guys talking to him were armed with dealy weapons. Besides holding a woman down with a knife is not exactly a reasonable past time.
  • Somkey ... Robbb 2012/02/20 23:26:22
    Somkey the Hores
    +1
    Suicide by cop?
  • Robbb Somkey ... 2012/02/21 07:49:37
    Robbb
    +1
    That's one way to go about it.
  • Kevin1111 2012/02/19 06:19:57
    Justifiable
    Kevin1111
    +2
    Police have shot and killed people in much more questionable situations than this one. In fact they seem downright trigger happy sometimes.

    It seems like they'd rather take someone else's life if there is the tiniest microscopic chance that they could kill the officer, or if they are holding something that could possibly be a gun, even if its down at their side and not pointed at anyone.

    I found an officer inside my house once, who was there without my permission, without telling me he was there. It was quite a shock and I was pissed off about it. Naturally the dog, who is a sweetheart and would never hurt anyone, started barking at him, but not in any kind of mean way. The guy goes for his gun. I just about went off on him. Maybe I should have. Years later I am still fuming about it.
  • Somkey ... Kevin1111 2012/02/19 09:02:25
    Somkey the Hores
    +3
    Most cops are as appreciative of their lives as the next guy. Otoh, they have more power, they MUST be held to a higher standars than a civilian.
  • TheTruth1313 2012/02/19 06:11:25
    Justifiable
    TheTruth1313
    +2
    It does kind of depend. I mean, if the guy is resisting or attempting to attack with the knife, then, yes, it is absolutely justified. Oh course, keep in mind, I'm fine with the police shooting someone who's attempting to run away.
  • Jackal 2012/02/19 05:20:32
    Justifiable
    Jackal
    +2
    That is a part of the procedure. If anyone's life is threatened, they are allowed to use lethal force.
  • Sam DePecan 2012/02/19 03:56:54
    Justifiable
    Sam DePecan
    +1
    You never ever want to take a knife to a gun fight.
  • Justifiable
    Jerry (Iron Priest)☮ R ☮ P ☮ 201
    +2
    Until he puts down the weapon, he's nothing but a target and justifiably so.
  • BackWoodsMike 2012/02/19 03:00:42
    Justifiable
    BackWoodsMike
    This is a fraction of what we are taught at the Academy, but it does apply to this discussion.

    As you can plainly see, both use of deadly force in connection with an arrest and use of force for the prevention of crime apply to this particular case.
    - - -

    Note the following in: “Use of deadly force in connection with an arrest”

    “The U.S. Supreme Court stated the standard in 1985: "Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent an escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given"”

    Note the following in: “Use of force for the prevention of crime”

    “Deadly force may be used to prevent a felony that threatens death or serious bodily harm, at least if the felony cannot otherwise be prevented (Restatement of Torts, 2d ed., secs. 141–143).”
    - - - -

    In the case of this story, the headline is skewed to make people think that the suspect was just holdin...






















    This is a fraction of what we are taught at the Academy, but it does apply to this discussion.

    As you can plainly see, both use of deadly force in connection with an arrest and use of force for the prevention of crime apply to this particular case.
    - - -

    Note the following in: “Use of deadly force in connection with an arrest”

    “The U.S. Supreme Court stated the standard in 1985: "Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent an escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given"”

    Note the following in: “Use of force for the prevention of crime”

    “Deadly force may be used to prevent a felony that threatens death or serious bodily harm, at least if the felony cannot otherwise be prevented (Restatement of Torts, 2d ed., secs. 141–143).”
    - - - -

    In the case of this story, the headline is skewed to make people think that the suspect was just holding a knife, when in reality, he was holding a women in a head lock and threatening to do her bodily harm with the knife (a deadly weapon by all standards).

    The shoot was justified.

    - - - - - - - - - - -

    Use of deadly force in connection with an arrest

    As noted above, an officer may use as much force as is reasonably necessary, short of deadly force, to retain custody of a suspect. It follows that if the suspect resists, the officer may increase the force to counter the resistance. The officer has no duty to retreat as the force escalates, and if the force should ratchet up to the point where the suspect threatens the officer with death or serious bodily harm, the officer may use deadly force to retain custody (LaFave and Scott, sec. 5.10). "Deadly force" is defined as "force reasonably capable of causing death or great bodily harm" (Geller and Scott, p. 23); while it obviously includes the discharge of firearms, it may also include the use of chokeholds or even automobiles under some circumstances. Pointing a firearm without firing it or making any attempt to fire it is not in itself the use of deadly force.

    The standard for the use of deadly force changes when the officer is pursuing a suspect but has not yet been able to arrest him. All the standards stated above are applicable to the use of deadly force to effect an arrest; the officer must reasonably believe that the use of such force is necessary. In addition, however, there is a further limitation under the Fourth Amendment upon the power of a law enforcement officer to use deadly force to effect an arrest. The U.S. Supreme Court stated the standard in 1985: "Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent an escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given" (Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1, 11–12 (1985)). Garner concerned the shooting of a suspect fleeing from a burglary who was not believed to pose any physical threat; in that case the Court held that the shooting was an unreasonable seizure of the person. The Garner standard is a substantial modification of the common law, which permitted an officer to shoot a fleeing suspect whom he had probable cause to believe had committed a felony, whether the felony was physically dangerous or not. The judgment that underlies the Garner standard is that while shooting a fleeing suspect may sometimes appear necessary to effect the arrest, the use of deadly force is disproportionate in cases where the suspect does not pose a physical danger to the officer or the community.

    Even in a case where the use of deadly force is justified, the force used may be found to be excessive, for example, when it is not found to be necessary under the circumstances. In Burton v. Waller, 502 F.2d 1261 (5th Cir. 1974) cert den. U.S. 964, reh. den. 421 U.S. 39, the use of massive firepower in response to a suspected shot by a sniper in a civil disturbance was held to be the excessive use of force.
    The standard for the use of deadly force to stop a suspect under international law, also squarely based in the basic principles of necessity and proportionality, is somewhat more restrictive than the standard under the Fourth Amendment. The United Nations Basic Principles for the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials (UN Basic Principles ), which are widely adopted by police throughout the world, provide in Article 9 that: "Law enforcement officials shall not use firearms against persons except in self-defense or defense of others against the imminent threat of death or serious injury, to prevent the perpetration of a particularly serious crime involving grave threat to life, to arrest a person presenting such a danger and resisting their authority, or to prevent his or her escape, and only when less extreme means are insufficient to achieve these objectives. In any event, intentional lethal use of firearms may only be made when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life." In the Case of McCann and others v. UK, ECHR vol. 324 1995)), which concerned a response to a suspected terrorist attack, the European Court of Human Rights, applying the principle of necessity, held that it is not enough to justify every use of deadly force that the actors reasonably believe that the attackers present a threat to life; in addition, the official operation in response must be organized in such a way as to minimize the threat to life.

    The standards for the protection of bystanders who may be injured by the lawful use of deadly force vary. At common law, if the action in connection with the arrest was justified, then an injury consequent upon that action would also be justified, and would not be a crime or even a tort (Restatement of Torts, 2d ed., sec. 75) in the absence of negligence on the part of the actor. Although the Model Penal Code proposed the more restrictive standard that the actor may not use deadly force unless he "believes that the force employed creates no substantial risk of injury to innocent persons" (Model Penal Code, sec. 3.07 (2)(b)(iii)), the standard has not been adopted. It is not clear how such a standard could be administered as a matter of the criminal law; if the force used were truly necessary and proportional, then it would seem that an element of criminality is missing from the act.

    The standards for the use of deadly force in an arrest by a private person are generally more restrictive than the standards for law enforcement officers. A private person uses deadly force at his peril; he is not privileged to rely upon "probable cause." By the general rule under contemporary law, he may use deadly force only to arrest for a felony dangerous to life when the person arrested has committed the felony (Dressler, sec. 21.03 B2b; Restatement of Torts, 2d ed., sec. 143). On the other hand, since the Fourth Amendment does not restrict actions by private persons, it seems permissible for the states to retain the common law rule that permitted a person to use deadly force to arrest for any felony; the Michigan courts have done so (People v. Couch, 436 Mich. 414 (1990)). Nevertheless, this seems to be an undesirable standard, giving justification for disproportionate force when the crime is not a dangerous felony and unnecessarily encouraging vigilantism.

    Use of force for the prevention of crime

    At common law, reasonable force short of deadly force may be used by law enforcement officers or private persons to prevent a felony or a misdemeanor that involves a breach of the peace. Deadly force may be used to prevent a felony that threatens death or serious bodily harm, at least if the felony cannot otherwise be prevented (Restatement of Torts, 2d ed., secs. 141–143). The standards for the use of force to prevent crime overlap with those concerning self-defense and the defense of another, as well as the standards concerning the use of force for arrest. Thus, if the actor is the victim of the crime, or is aiding a victim, then standards concerning self-defense will support his actions; similarly the prevention of the crime will often entail an arrest of the offender.

    By the standards established in the Garner case, discussed above, it appears that the standards for the use of deadly force by law enforcement officers, limiting their discretion to use deadly force in the prevention of crime to cases of life-threatening felonies, are required by the Fourth Amendment; to use deadly force to prevent a felony that does not threaten life would be disproportionate to the crime and an unreasonable seizure of the person. The powers of private persons to use deadly force, however, not being controlled by the Fourth Amendment, may be more expansive than the powers of law enforcement officers. The common law permits an actor in his home, after giving a warning, to repel an intruder with deadly force, and some states, including Louisiana and New York, retain versions of this rule; New York, for example, permits the use of deadly force to terminate a burglary (N.Y. Penal Law, sec. 35.20(2)). The Model Penal Code permits the use of deadly force to prevent dispossession from the dwelling when the attempted dispossession is not under a claim of right (Model Penal Code, sec. 3.06 (3)(d)(i)). Some states have taken the contrary position that rules similar to the common law rule are too permissive, because they would authorize the use of deadly force under circumstances where it may be disproportionate to the crime, and have permitted the use of deadly force only when the intrusion is reasonably believed to threaten life (LaFave and Scott, sec. 5.9).
    (more)
  • CUDDLY BUT STILL CRABBY 2012/02/19 02:49:34
    Justifiable
    CUDDLY BUT STILL CRABBY
    +2
    Justifiable.

    Unless you want to spend your lifetimes defending the indefensible. Which is quite common with liberals.

    Liberals will pull out all of the stops trying to stop the execution of a convicted killer, yet will not bat an eyelash when it comes to murdering the unborn in the womb on a wholesale basis.

    Here's some examples of real life murderers and various thuggery that liberals insist on defending

    http://www.thugreport.com
  • TuringsChild 2012/02/19 02:26:03
    Undecided
    TuringsChild
    +2
    Just holding a knife is no justification for shooting anyone. Of course, once he's been ordered to drop it, only a fool, a suicide, or a homicidal maniac would disobey, so yeah, shooting becomes justified. A cop's most important job is going home at the end of the day.
  • Seonag Turings... 2012/02/19 15:13:04
    Seonag
    +2
    According to the story "The man grew more agitated and made increasingly threatening gestures toward the woman and officers when he was shot, Berry said." It appears the situation was escalating and the police did their job.
  • Turings... Seonag 2012/02/19 16:59:05
    TuringsChild
    +1
    Yeah, when I first saw this question, my computer didn't bring up the story. I only saw it after responding. I figured someone would notice sooner or later, and I don't like that grey bar they give you when you change your answer.
  • cents-less 2012/02/19 02:18:31
    Justifiable
    cents-less
    +1
    Based on the posted story, yes. No doubt.
  • antlergirl21 2012/02/19 02:06:13
    Justifiable
    antlergirl21
    +3
    Obviously, the police officers were concerned for the safety of the woman. They tried to make him release her and there wasn't much they could do, and, as the article stated, he was getting closer and closer to harming her. So in my eyes, this is completely justifiable.
  • Inquisitve Kat 2012/02/19 02:00:46
    Justifiable
    Inquisitve Kat
    +3
    It sounds as though they gave the man plenty of opportunity to surrender. NOT shooting the man may well have caused the woman serious injury or death. That being said, as I think of it, I do NOT think they should have shot to kill... unless it was too risky to shoot him elsewhere (in case he may react by stabbing the woman quickly in response).
  • Red_Horse 2012/02/19 02:00:02
  • JoeBlo 2012/02/19 01:54:04
    Justifiable
    JoeBlo
    +3
    I like how you tainted the headline by leaving the woman out.

See Votes by State

The map above displays the winning answer by region.

Living

2013/05/22 14:26:05

Hot Questions on SodaHead
More Hot Questions

More Community More Originals