Circumcision: A Religious belief OR An outdated custom?

jt 2012/04/09 03:42:46
Related Topics: Religious, Belief
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  • qutiepatootie 2012/04/10 02:16:43
    An outdated custom...
    Had I known years ago, what I know now about circumcision, my boys wouldn't have gotten it done. There are absolutely no benefits to it, and can cause a ton of harm.

    Mutilating another's body for religious reasons is selfish and mindless.

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  • tina.dueholm.7 2012/09/19 13:53:39
    An outdated custom...
    Circumcision should be banned worldwide and only be done for medical reasons. There is no excuse for cutting away healthy bodyparts. If an adult want it done it's their own decision but leave the children alone.
  • najiwench 2012/09/13 01:43:28
    An outdated custom...
    Completely against it unless there is substantiated medical need (which is EXTREMELY rare), or a man age 18 or older who is fully informed, makes the choice for himself.
  • vanessa.lester3 2012/09/12 07:36:25
    An outdated custom...
    I don't care what you choose to do to your own body for whatever reason. But forcing it on anyone else is sick and wrong.
    Especially an infant that will go through more pain, cannot have anesthesia, does not know what's going on, and did not consent to a permanent, aesthetic procedure.
    The infant never chose to be subjected to that kind of religious branding, when he's old enough to choose for himself his religion, and what he thinks is appropriate for showing it to his deity and himself, he can choose whether or not to have his/her genitals cut.

    But frankly, if it's not your body it's not your choice.

    I will never get over how disgusted I am that we live in a society that still tolerates genital cutting of non consenting minors of either sex.
  • Chad 2012/09/12 07:32:34
    An outdated custom...
    It causes excruciating pain, risk of botching, risk of death, psychological effects in at least some, greater chance of ED, reduced sexual pleasure for both partners (Dried, calloused skin, which is less sensitive; also loss of a large amount of nerve endings, mucous membranes and estrogen receptors--and the gliding motion facilitated by the prepuce is replaced by abrasion), painful erections for some (Inadequate skin tissue remaining, which also reduces the penis's size). What is gained? The organ is easier to clean, and looks better to some people. Your fingers would be easier to clean without nails, but would you want them ripped out? And as far as how it looks, isn't its function a world more important? Shouldn't one have the right to decide whether or not he gets to keep a part of his body--especially if it isn't a birth defect, but something boys are typically born with? Why is it illegal and unacceptable to most to remove a girl's clitoral hood, but a boy's foreskin is fair game--instead of people having equal protection under the law, regardless of gender? As far as religion, children are human beings who are separate from their parents, and thus have the Constitutional right to freedom of religion.
  • Kozmo, Kostable of the Kust... 2012/05/05 11:12:34
    An outdated custom...
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Infant circumcision should be abolished. If applicable should be delayed until Bar Mitzva when the lad can give some sort of iinformed concent. Actually the practice of excising the entire foreskin wasn't official until 140AD, prior to that, most Jewish males were given something more like what's called here the 'Euro-Cut'. Even Michaelangelo was aware of this when he carved David. From he tiime of Alexander til then, Judea was in the Hellenic Sphere which prized male nudity. There were also groups that wanted to integrate with the Greeks for opportunities with an early concept of globalization. They would not be too welcome at the 'gymnasia' if their glandes were exposed.
  • vanessa... Kozmo, ... 2012/09/12 18:36:41
  • Kozmo, ... vanessa... 2012/09/13 07:31:59
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Can't do anything about Original Sin, so why baptize infants?

    I said I'm anti-cutting, so why rant AT me? The info I got was from a book called "the Joy of Uncircumcision", which stated the Euro-cut was the norm until the Pharisees or whatever imposed 'radical' cuts in 140AD.
  • Chaya2010 2012/05/03 19:30:38 (edited)
    An outdated custom...
    From a religious perspective its obligatory for both Jewish and Muslim men. From a medical perspective the benefits outweigh the risks and it is relatively pain free or at least comparable to minor surgery: injections, ear piercing and the child will almost always not remember the older he becomes. For the record: although I dislike the idea were I to have male children I would circumcise them just like my brother, father and presumably my ancestors before them.
  • AshleyP... Chaya2010 2012/05/03 23:19:01
    Boys die from circumcisions, too. Why do you oppose circumcising females (by the way, many times the females actually have the CHOICE! not forced) but not males?
  • Chaya2010 AshleyP... 2012/05/04 00:22:59 (edited)
    I oppose FGM generally, there are three types all seem to be medically horrific. I leave out cosmetic vaginal surgery for the purposes of this thread. Comparing the male and female circumcision is intellectually dishonest the latter serves no medical purpose whatsoever.For the most part FGM is cultural as is the case in Somalia and Egypt.

    As for the choice, if its an informed choice it is their business what they do with their bodies.

    Some boys die eating nuts, salt , vaccinations and minor operations this is to be expect and is bound to happen. Again, this is taken into consideration. It doesn't follow that nuts, salt, vaccinations, minor operations should be banned because a tiny percentage die.
  • vanessa... Chaya2010 2012/09/12 18:38:26
    That's not the law, there are non harmful methods, and you should respect HIS religion, at 8 days old, he doesn't have a choice, a voice, a religion or an opinion.
    It's the height of arrogance to assume he will be YOUR religion, and it's the height of child abuse to offer him as a blood sacrifice, especially in infancy.
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2012/05/05 11:26:47
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Puzzling, you say it's obsolete but yet support it, if need be. Hope you're getting some (non-pharmacutecal) counselling for your 'Double-Think'. You seem to be in some sort of Cultural Inertial Denial. But then the behavior of God in the Torah appears to be much like a 12-year-old with (untreated) Asperger's, same could be said for Christ but His Story has been 'doctored' by paleo-Catholics.
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2012/05/05 11:56:18 (edited)
    An atheist is a rejection of a theistic claim. I find no reason to believe in a God or Gods. Being Jewish for me is national, cultural and to a lesser extent ethnic.
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2012/05/12 08:42:20
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    isn't a Jewish Atheist a Pharishee? Also, there's no archaeological records of the Jews prior to 1300BC. Lastly, I'm one-eighth Ashkenazi Jew but not bound to the Covenant of Abraham. Undeniably 100% prick.
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2015/02/03 03:54:45
    I share DNA with shellfish, what's you point? You are either Jewish or you aren't. I didn't make the rules that's just how it is.
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2015/02/04 06:41:17
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Sign of conceited exceptionalism,
    explains (& warranted) some trouble your kind had, e.g. Judges
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2015/02/04 16:55:01 (edited)
    You are bound to fail when you resort to using a 2000-4000 year old Bronze Age book of religious superstition and mythology[edit:atheism] to a relatively modern concept. You would also be mindful to understand what an atheist actually means. Rejecting a theistic claim. Meaning the burden of proof lies on the one making the claim. Not really difficult to understand.
    Both my parents are Jewish that's all that matters according to Jewish Law. To simplify I'm ethnically Jewish due to parentage. The onus is on the abuser in the same way the blame is with the rapist not the victim. Gentiles need to own their irrationality and their actions.
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2015/02/04 17:01:57 (edited)
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Where did I say I was Religious? Or Atheist?
    I'm Ietsist
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2015/02/04 17:21:02 (edited)
    "isn't a Jewish Atheist a Pharishee? "
    How can an Jewish-Atheist be a Pharisee? They are the beginning of modern Judaism. They are religion. Atheism is the rejection of theistic claims, non-belief in Gods popularised thousands of years after the bible/oral law
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2015/02/04 17:41:21
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Was using a Christian reference,
    not my fault you're ignorant of that
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2015/02/04 18:38:42
    Don't really get the Christian reference to a Jewish practice or Judaism. Guess you've forgotten Christianity didn't exist at that time and they would have been religious following the Jewish religion. Do you see the oxymoron?
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2015/02/05 02:29:54 (edited)
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Consider God's experiment with an exclusive group wasn't to his liking, hence he presented Jesus as an inclusive role model

    Also, Jews weren't the 1st to practice circumcision. In the article another respondent to you article which states that the priestly class of Egypt, which precede Judaism, did the same. Again, elitism
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2015/02/05 11:47:49
    There's as much evidence for the existence of a God or Gods, as Thor or Zeus (I'm an atheist/agnostic) - I'll take the thought experiment though...

    Done! Still don't "get it." I never made the claim that Jews were the first. I know that Jews weren't it was practised by others for a host of other reasons possibly hygiene reasons - sand etc.

    Some African tribes for example circumcise boys is a ritual to manhood. I don't see how that is 'elitism' let alone how that relates to my point that circumcision in the west is not high risk.

    Notions of elitism are modern western concepts they don't relate to ancient Egypt or some African tribes the notion is alien. Further the fact that non-Jews, most Jewish men circumcise doesn't support 'elitism' irrespective of its origins. This is just a distraction and deflection from the point.

    My point was hypothetical and based on medical not social reasons were I to opt for circumcision. Based on the evidence cited the case more compelling for male circumcision.
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2015/02/06 04:37:50
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Didn't say I believed in an (anthropomorphized) deity, didn't you read my profile? Being an Ietsist (Dutch 'something'), I accept that is something well beyond our perception of the Universe means well, throw in some (benevolent) Pantheism.
    Classic Deism is unacceptable, akin to Sheol, IMO
  • Kozmo, ... Kozmo, ... 2015/02/06 04:40:47 (edited)
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Jews have a weak belief in the Afterlife? My (personal) interpretation of Sheol is being left in a forgotten grave
  • Kozmo, ... Kozmo, ... 2015/02/06 04:42:22
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Sounds like Moses?
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2015/02/06 09:25:39
    There is not afterlife but a world to come. Its just not discussed I don't know.
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2015/02/07 03:28:09
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Perhaps (personal speculation) that's why Jesus was presented with his promise of salvation for all,
    if they live "his way" that is.

    Assume you're not the Messianic type
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2015/02/07 04:11:55
    I'm an atheist/agnositic. Don't believe in God(s) or the supernatural/mythology.
    The Jewish concept of Messiah/Mosicah is nothing like the Christian version.
    Judaism rejects the New Testament.
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2015/02/07 06:57:37 (edited)
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Excuse for being naïve, but how can one be a Jew and not follow the Torah and maybe the Talmud?
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2015/02/12 08:39:26
    I'll explain in the easiest way (using Hebrew transliterated).

    Judean - The nation
    Yehud (singular) - a Jew from one of the two kingdoms, a person from the nation.
    Yehudim (plural) Jewish transliterated from Hebrew.

    Not all Jews read the Talmud (Karite Judaism doesn't). You don't need to be a religious Jew to be Jewish, part of the Jewish people and nation. there are lots of atheist and agnostic Jews:
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2015/02/13 01:05:50
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Need some time to read this, like many other Gentiles, likely naïve that you have as many division as any other major Faith
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2015/02/13 01:22:10
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Acknowledge, but my stand on this poll remains unchanged. Thanks for the info
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2015/02/06 09:26:23
    I thought you mispelt "leftist"
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2015/02/07 03:41:14
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Ietsism (Dutch: ietsisme "somethingism") is an unspecified belief in an undetermined higher force.

  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2012/05/12 08:46:19
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Tradition for it's own sake when harm is done is so Pharisee.
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2012/05/13 04:53:54
    I don't care what you label me I'm not religious. Do you think religious labels bother me or any religious book from the bronze age?
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2012/05/19 23:49:55 (edited)
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    A "Devout Atheist" (YOU) is a classic case of DoubleThink, get some counselling (Woody Allen does).

    Refer to 'The Lottery' about another 'Tradition' performed needlessly.


    The Pharisee were noted for being HYPOCRITES, not Theists.
  • Chaya2010 Kozmo, ... 2012/05/20 13:21:59
    I suggest you look up the definition of atheist:
    "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2][3] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3][4][5] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[6][7] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[7][8]"

    atheist [ey-thee-ist]  
    a·the·ist   [ey-thee-ist]
    a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
  • Kozmo, ... Chaya2010 2012/05/20 19:22:17 (edited)
    Kozmo, Kostable of the Kustodian
    Let me rephrase: the practice of genital mutilation on anyone who can't give (parents don't have that right) consent is abomidable & counter to (my interpretaion of) the Charter of Human Rights.
    I slipped in 'The Lottery' reference as a parallel anachronism. The choice shoud be offered when the lad attains Bar Mitzvah.
    Not that i'm against Tradition (if generally harmless), the practice of men doffing their hats at (most, 1 I attend allows) Church, bieng a symbol of respect/reverence.

    As for Me, I'm somewhere amid Deist, Theist & Ignostic, I believe in "Something" (Good), but not (exactly) the anthropomorphed Gent that actively interacts with Man[kind], along the lines of Carl Jung.

    Kathenotheism & Panen(The/De)ism are also valid options.
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